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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2013,14:28) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 04 2013,09:51) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27) This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread. Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:
Quote Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael: 1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
3. He came in the flesh? YES or NO?
4. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh? YES or NO?
5. He partook in flesh? YES or NO?
6. He was made in the likeness of a human being? YES or NO?
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?
8. He was changed into a human being? YES or NO?
9. He had two different “beginnings”? YES or NO?The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”. So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.
So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.
or
You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.
That is what I call nonsense.
Kerwin.The Word was made,made, made.flesh.
From *flesh to flesh* as you say it is.
This alone is a strange, and contradicting iterpretation.I say from spirit to flesh.Made from one thing to another thing.
wakeup.
Wakeup,You cannot touch spirit.
According to you God made Jesus' flesh out of that which cannot be touched and Jesus soul out of the soul of this thing you call the word. Do I understand you correctly.
Kerwin.How did God create the angels,for they are spirit
creatures?God can turn spirit into flesh, and flesh into spirit.
And from nothing into something.wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 14 2013,12:49) Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17) First of all, the Word is not a creature. It is spirit. Quote Angels are also spirit. Are they creations?
Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit. They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17) The Word was always inside God from everlasting. Quote The same could be said about every single thing in existence today.
All things originally came out from God.
Everything was made by God and consists of him, because it's created with his wisdom, but doesn't mean that all came out of him like a replica of him?
Animals are not a replica of him,
this is different, he spoke and it was done.
The only that came out of him was his Word, and we all know that the Word was later transformed into Christ.
This is why he is the “only begotten son”. He has his Father's genes. Spiritual genes, made up of truth, honor, wisdom, righteousness etc, …all the same attributes as his Father, for before he was even Jesus Christ he came out of his Father as the Word,
nothing else has this title, and nothing else came out of him the same way. He is like no-other. He is his real son, of highest majesty.Lets consider this verse again;
Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.So everything God speaks (his word) comes out of his mouth. Whether his Word is in him or beside him, it's still his breath because he controls it.
Man, beast and all things God created had a beginning, so how can this have always been with God? God is from everlasting with no beginning. The idea was there, but this is different to his Word which was always in him,
And the Word was not always beside him, for there came a time when God bought his word out of him and gave it a shape. This was at the beginning of creation and we know he did this for a purpose.Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17) But there comes a time in the beginning (when God starts creating) that he brings forth his word out of himself and gives it a shape and a job to do, Quote at this point, the Word is actually an individual BEING, separate from God Himself, right? Therefore, the Word is a new CREATION that God brought forth.
I could be wrong, but I don't see it as a new creation, for the Word already existed, and just because God brought it out of him and put it next to him means to me he only moved it from one place to another.
also another fact to consider is just because God brought his word out of himself and made it to be next to him, does not mean that he does not have the word inside him still?
For example, when Christ was crucified, who resurrected him? God did with his Word. So this shows that it must be in him still, for he rose Christ from the dead with that same Word.
The idea was there in God's plan even before all creation that he would bring his Word out, for the purpose of transforming it into a new creation which happened when it was made into flesh. Now it's a new creation, because it's gone from spirit to flesh. A huge change.Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17) And God tells the Word, do this and do that, and the Word obeys. God is still in control of his word. He gives the orders. So God transformed his image (his word that was beside him), turned it to flesh, and gave him his own mind, to make his own decisions, choosing whether to obey or not…….. Quote These two don't align, journey. If the Word was obeying God before the world began, then he must have had his own mind even back then.
I'm not quite sure how to answer this one, and it's a good point, but I was referring to when the Word became flesh, the man Jesus Christ. It takes on a whole different challenge. The Word is no longer spirit but is in a flesh body now with all it's weaknesses like hunger, pain, sorrow, temptation etc. which is why Christ was glorified because he remained as faithful as that same word did in the beginning despite all the hardships he experienced on this earth.
MikeB.Quote Quote
These two don't align, journey. If the Word was obeying God before the world began, then he must have had his own mind even back then..
MikeB,please tell me:
HAS YOUR WORD HIS OWN MIND?wakeup.
kerwin,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit. They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.Quote Journey42,
spirit has more than one meaning. Which are you using?
Hi Kerwin
The meaning I'm using is that Angels were created spirit creatures.Quote do you believe the same definition applies to the Word?
No, the Word was not a created a spirit creature, but already existed inside God. God is spirit, so his Word also is spirit and used to create everything that exists.Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:51) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2013,14:28) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 04 2013,09:51) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27) This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread. Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:
Quote Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael: 1. He was turned into flesh? YES or NO?
2. He became flesh? YES or NO?
3. He came in the flesh? YES or NO?
4. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh? YES or NO?
5. He partook in flesh? YES or NO?
6. He was made in the likeness of a human being? YES or NO?
7. He was transformed into flesh? YES or NO?
8. He was changed into a human being? YES or NO?
9. He had two different “beginnings”? YES or NO?The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”. So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.
So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.
or
You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.
That is what I call nonsense.
Kerwin.The Word was made,made, made.flesh.
From *flesh to flesh* as you say it is.
This alone is a strange, and contradicting iterpretation.I say from spirit to flesh.Made from one thing to another thing.
wakeup.
Wakeup,You cannot touch spirit.
According to you God made Jesus' flesh out of that which cannot be touched and Jesus soul out of the soul of this thing you call the word. Do I understand you correctly.
Kerwin.How did God create the angels,for they are spirit
creatures?God can turn spirit into flesh, and flesh into spirit.
And from nothing into something.wakeup.
Wakeup,I have never known God to create the physical out of spirit. I do not even believe spirits such as ghosts and possibly demons have a body to be transformed in such a way.
Changing a soul is changing who an entity is. If the soul of a best is changed to the soul of a man then the beast becomes a spiritual creature as well as a natural creation and so in its self is essentially a different creature. A change in spirit is nowhere as drastic as the essential self remains the same even as the spiritual self changes.
A spirit creature is a soul without a body in search of a body.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,17:53) I will judge which I feel fit in with the conversation and are significant.
Okay. If and when you feel fit to answer all nine exactly as I've asked, I will continue on with this discussion.BTW, your “dress” analogy is SO not applicable. Perhaps, when the day comes that people can say, “Human beings consist of DRESS and blood”, it will apply to this particular discussion.
Until that time, this kind of nonsense you come up with does nothing but waste peoples' time.
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 16 2013,05:13) kerwin,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit. They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.Quote Journey42,
spirit has more than one meaning. Which are you using?
Hi Kerwin
The meaning I'm using is that Angels were created spirit creatures.Quote do you believe the same definition applies to the Word?
No, the Word was not a created a spirit creature, but already existed inside God. God is spirit, so his Word also is spirit and used to create everything that exists.
Journey,Quote The meaning I'm using is that Angels were created spirit creatures. Nordic elves were said to be spirit creatures who can pass through walls and display other miracles powers but were still able to breed with mankind. Spirits on the other hand could neither eat or be touched.
I know of no scripture that calls angels spirits of any type but they would in many ways fit the same definition as do Nordic elves. They do not fit the definition that is applied to ghosts.
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,19:49) Lets consider this verse again;
Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.So everything God speaks (his word) comes out of his mouth. Whether his Word is in him or beside him, it's still his breath because he controls it.
Man, beast and all things God created had a beginning, so how can this have always been with God?
Hi journey,You seem to think that “the Word of God” who was made flesh was a literal word that God at one time spoke out of His mouth. This is not the case. The BEING Jesus Christ has the TITLE “the Word of God” simply because he is God's main spokesman. It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ originating as a literal word that God spoke.
On the other hand, the psalm you quoted DOES refer to literal, spoken words out of God's mouth. The psalm refers to things like this:
Genesis 1
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.
Notice verse 7. God said, “Let there be……”, and then God (not His literal word) made it so.
Some people on this site seem to think God spoke, and then one or more of His literal words obeyed Him, and went about doing the actual creating.
But not one of these literal words that God spoke in the verses above were living entities. They weren't living beings who were God at the same time they were with God. They were simply words that God said, and then GOD went about accomplishing the things He said. In this way, God “spoke all things into existence”. In this way, “the heavens and all other things were made by the word of Jehovah – by the breath of His mouth”.
He SAID it, and it was so.
It seems to me that many people here have the idea that these words God spoke actually went out and created things. Like the words, “Let there be light” left out of God's mouth, and then went and created light for God.
And the reason they come up with this kind of thinking is because they can't figure out another way how, in John 1, the Word could both be with God, and also be God.
But the fact that Jesus holds the title “the Word of God” has nothing at all to do with any literal words God spoke out of His mouth. It is simply the title of God's spokesman, much like the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia had the title, “the word of the king”. That spokesman was never a literal word that the king spoke, nor did he ever come forth out of the king's mouth. It is simply a title for the one who does the king's bidding….. the official who speaks for the king. The title has nothing to do with that person being a literal word.
It is the same with Jesus. He is called “the Word of God” because he is God's spokesman – not because he has ever been a literal spoken word from God's mouth.
Jesus is God's firstborn spirit son. What makes you think that he wasn't created when all his spirit brothers were? Yes, he was the FIRST one. But he has always, since God created him, been a spirit son of God. He was created as the first of God's works. (Prov 8:22) He is the firstborn of every creature. (Col 1:16) He is the beginning of the creation by God. (Rev 3:14)
Your interpretation calls for him starting off inside God, as God Himself, and then becoming an individual being who is no longer God. And that conclusion comes from your insistence upon the flawed “and the Word was God” translation of John 1:1.
God cannot be WITH God. Something that WAS God cannot somehow become “not God”. But we must accept both of these impossible things in order to accept what you and Wakeup claim.
So, first things first. Are you willing to accept that 99% of the times the phrase “the word of God” is used in scripture, it refers simply to words or commands that God has given – and only about 4 or 5 times does that phrase actually refer to a living, breathing BEING?
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,19:55) By the way Kerwin,
My answer to Mike just now was my short version.
oops!
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,21:38) This is a very tricky question, and now I have to put on my real thinking cap! The scriptures say that the Word was God, and I believe this to be the correct translation.
Did you know that the FACT of the matter, as concluded by Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian scholars alike, is that “and the Word was a god” is one of the two grammatically acceptable translations of John 1:1c?Grammatically, there is just as much chance that John meant to say “the Word was a god” as there is that he meant to say “the Word was God”. EQUAL ODDS. Are you with me so far?
So, we must decide from the context which one John meant.
As for the most common translation, even the Trinitarian scholars from NET Bible.org say: The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)
So even these Trinitarians, who want nothing more than for Jesus to be God Almighty, can understand that the construction of 1:1c does NOT equate the Word with God Himself – due to the very obvious statement, “and the Word was WITH God”.
So one translation has us believing these two things:
1. God Himself was WITH God Himself in the beginning.2. Something that WAS God Himself later became someone who was NO LONGER God Himself.
And the other translation has us believing:
1. Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.Considering that Jesus IS called “god” at least five different times in scripture, and Jesus IS the Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten – which is the more sensible translation?
journey, I'm glad you came into this discussion “looking with fresh eyes” – and that you are willing to give these things some serious thought.
Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,21:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2013,03:35) He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is another.
Who is Tertullian?
He was one of the “early church fathers”. But that's not important. What matters is the undeniable logic of those words he wrote.Many here want to credit the Word with the creation, mostly because of the KJV's use of the word “by” when they should have translated as “through”.
But 1 Cor 8:6 makes it pretty clear that there is a difference between God, FROM WHOM all things came, and the Lord Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.
For example, the fact that you were created THROUGH your parents doesn't change the fact that God, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF, created you.
So the Word is never said to have done any creating of his own. God did all the creating. It's just that God chose to do that THROUGH the Word.
And Tertullian's words make that point very well – which is why I often use them.
journey, don't confuse the ones THROUGH WHOM God created with the God who actually did the creating.
kerwin,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Nordic elves were said to be spirit creatures who can pass through walls and display other miracles powers but were still able to breed with mankind. Spirits on the other hand could neither eat or be touched. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Quote I know of no scripture that calls angels spirits of any type but they would in many ways fit the same definition as do Nordic elves. They do not fit the definition that is applied to ghosts. Hi Kerwin,
Angels are not flesh, therefore they are spirit.
They are also called Ministering spirits.
Ministering spirits carrying out God's orders. They are heavenly creatures doing God's work for him.
Nordic elves are these other type of spirit creatures, and not heavenly.
Both are spirits regardless, and if talking about a particular one then it's singular – we say a spirit.
one is a good spirit,
and the other an evil spirit.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2013,11:39) It seems to me that many people here have the idea that these words God spoke actually went out and created things. Like the words, “Let there be light” left out of God's mouth, and then went and created light for God. And the reason they come up with this kind of thinking is because they can't figure out another way how, in John 1, the Word could both be with God, and also be God.
Mike………That not true , God and His word are ONE and the same thing , Just as your words and you are one and the Same.If God said something in the “beginning”, and then did it , How does that make his word that was with him a Different “God”, then Him? God and his word are ONE and connected, Just as you and your words are.
Just that simple. John 1:1 is not relating to Jesus at all but God the Father alone. God plainly say He performs His word, Need scripture i can find it for you. He say his word does not go out of his mouth and come back empty, but performs that which he send it to. Why?, because God is a SPIRIT and His WORD are SPIRIT also, They are connected as ONE and the Same..
You have simply bought into the LIE Spoken of in 2 Ths2. Jesus Can and does and did Speak God words , as he who was “IN” him was directing Him to Do. But none of that made Jesus a God of any kind,
That is if you believe scriptures about the “ONENESS” of GOD. as I have quoted many times and you always seen to get around admitting them as true.
By the way you still have not answered this one.
1 Cor 8:4…> We know that there is no Idol in the world, and that there “NO” God but “ONE”.
peace and love………………………gene
Journey,
The “ministering” in “ministering spirits” tells us that “spirits” as in they are “kind spirits” can apply and fits with the idea of what the angels action is in Hebrews 1:13-2:1.
Hebrews 1:13-2:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat both which angels are recording as doing and therefor cannot be spirits. I took the liberty of pointing out there are other kinds of spirits, of which the Nordic elves manifests many of the same traits angels are said to. Of course the elves being living creatures have bear flesh.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2013,05:24) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,17:53) I will judge which I feel fit in with the conversation and are significant.
Okay. If and when you feel fit to answer all nine exactly as I've asked, I will continue on with this discussion.BTW, your “dress” analogy is SO not applicable. Perhaps, when the day comes that people can say, “Human beings consist of DRESS and blood”, it will apply to this particular discussion.
Until that time, this kind of nonsense you come up with does nothing but waste peoples' time.
Mike,I believe you are trying to dodge a conversation you find uncomfortable. I chose to answer your questions to the point I could reasonably do until make changes to them. In other words improve your communications.
Mike,
Can you say that you believe that “the word was made flesh” means “A creature named the word was transformed into a human being”?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 17 2013,06:03) Journey, The “ministering” in “ministering spirits” tells us that “spirits” as in they are “kind spirits” can apply and fits with the idea of what the angels action is in Hebrews 1:13-2:1.
Hebrews 1:13-2:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat both which angels are recording as doing and therefor cannot be spirits. I took the liberty of pointing out there are other kinds of spirits, of which the Nordic elves manifests many of the same traits angels are said to. Of course the elves being living creatures have bear flesh.
Hi KerwinIf we can stick to one thing at a time that would be great.
You said that no-where in scripture are angels referred to as spirits.
I gave you the scripture that says otherwise.
You can see for yourself now that you have missed this verse, therefore your view was distorted on this particular matter, but should be clarified now.We should accept when we are in error, then the truth can continue to grow and not be a stumbling block.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 16 2013,09:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2013,11:39) It seems to me that many people here have the idea that these words God spoke actually went out and created things. Like the words, “Let there be light” left out of God's mouth, and then went and created light for God. And the reason they come up with this kind of thinking is because they can't figure out another way how, in John 1, the Word could both be with God, and also be God.
Mike………That not true , God and His word are ONE and the same thing……..
If that was really true, Gene, then it was Jehovah Himself who BECAME FLESH and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.And that means John the Baptist said these words about Jehovah Himself: He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.
But in reality, John the Baptist said those words about “the Word” in verse 15, and about “Jesus Christ” in verse 30.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,13:03) Jesus assumed spirits cannot be touched nor can they eat……….
It amazes me how Kerwin will just continue to teach this claim – as if there is scriptural proof of it. There isn't.Angels are spirit beings. They live in the spirit realm of heaven.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,13:15) Mike, I believe you are trying to dodge a conversation you find uncomfortable.
Then you don't know me very well yet, Kerwin.
I don't “dodge” anything – because I don't even BELIEVE any doctrine unless I can scripturally PROVE it. There is nothing for me to “dodge”.
Now, I've asked 9 very simple YES or NO questions. If and when you list all nine, with a YES or NO answer beside each one, we will continue.
(And by YES or NO, I do not prohibit further explanations as to WHY an answer was either YES or NO. You can say as much as you want about your YES or NO answer – as long as your response actually starts with the word “YES” or the word “NO”.)
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 16 2013,13:20) Mike, Can you say that you believe that “the word was made flesh” means “A creature named the word was transformed into a human being”?
I say that a spirit creature (the first one ever created) who has as one of his many titles, “The Word of God”, was transformed from a spirit being to a flesh being.And yes, all nine of the statements in that previous post would be different ways of sensibly saying the same exact thing.
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