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t8,
Jesus is also called the power and wisdom of God in Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians. (1:24 AV of the KJV)
All I can do it point to Philo of Alexander a contemporary of John who uses logos much as John does in his writings. According to Philo, the logos was the plan or ideas of the thing to be created. From that point of view the word with God as it is in his mind.
I think ‘with’ is the wrong word if ‘in’ is really meant.
I think that Jesus Christ is the Lord of God’s creation. He was made Lord and all things were made because of him and for him.
God is the God of the living not the dead. His Word is living and the Word that was WITH him was not without life.
When we read the book of John, it is clear it is about Jesus and who he is. It is written so we will believe that he is the son of God and the messiah. It is not written to convince us that he is God or merely a 2000 year old man. The book starts with his origins as the Word and says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father.
If there is any doubt as to what John was referring to in the beginning of his gospel, then we only need to read a parallel account in his first letter.
1 John 1:1-2
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life– and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to usThe eternal life that was with the Father in the beginning is the one who would later be called Jesus of Nazareth when he came in the flesh. Jesus himself even said, “I am the …..life”. No man comes to the Father but by him.
So where else can we go for eternal life? Nowhere else. It is only in him that we can partake of this gift in Christ Jesus.
While teh logos is a plan etc, it is also with God. While life is an attribute that we have or can have, Jesus said he was the life too.
I understand a being can bear the title of a concept such as “the Word” or “”Wisdom” which makes it difficult determine whether a concept is being personalized or it is instead a person. The Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Latin use of gender of a pronoun to speak of the gender of the noun being replaces makes it more difficult to judge whether the object is a concept or a person. For that reason I do not consider John’s words in the first part of chapter 1 proof text.
While not always conclusive, one way is the presence of the definite article. e.g., the difference between saying “The Devil” and “devil”.
The logos that was with God is THE Logos while the last mention of “God” in John 1:1 is not “THE God”.
Jesus is also called the power and wisdom of God in Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians. (1:24 AV of the KJV)
Correct. In that context who would deny that wisdom, life, light, logos is the person of Jesus Christ. While these are all attributes of God that we can partake in, they are also the person called Jesus Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the EXACT REPRESENTATION of his being.
The love of Christ while it is too great to fully comprehend, it is clear that we will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God. Even the son owes all to God. Because he is the exact representation of God and these are the attributes of God. Is it any surprise then to find that Jesus Christ is called the Word of God, The Truth, and The Life, etc. And he is called these things with the definite article because he is the person of these things.
Dear Kerwin,
According to St Paul in Philippians yes Jesus did attain a higher state or rank after his resurrection than he had in his preexistence,because of his becoming man and being obedient unto death. And the verse Paul paraphrases from Isaiah 45 is for Jehovah only according to Isaiah but Paul applies it to Christ-that every knee will bow to him-Christ.
And in St John’s gospel Jesus returns to where he was before-to share in the glory he had before his humanity John 17:5,not something newly attained or achieved.
You claim St Jn. 20:17 contradicts St Jn 1 as Jesus being God,logos or a God,but the whole point of John’s gospel is that Jesus is both God and man.The disciples ask to see the Father to satisfy them and what answer does Jesus give them? Should he not have said that no man can see the Father and live? no he says that if you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father. A bit blasphemous maybe? not according to St John,for he everywhere declares Jesus as a divine being coming from heaven and even has the audacity to claim that Isaiah’s theophany was a vision of Jesus in his preexistence. It really can’t get any plainer than that but you argue it all away and deny it to make it fit your own personal theology.
Hi Andrew.
While it is true that Jesus went back to the glory that he had with the Father before the cosmos, it is also certainly true as you say that he learned obedience and other things, besides saving those who are lost. So yes he has more and that us typical of the Father. He makes more out of loss.
However, I have to disagree with your following point:
but the whole point of John’s gospel is that Jesus is both God and man
The point of John’s gospel is to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God.
AndrewAD,
but the whole point of John’s gospel is that Jesus is both God and man
The whole point of John’s gospel is to set forth evidence to a sect of Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. His audience sound like mystics such as the Kabalah tradition is today. Certain people choose to ignore the context for their own reasons and so misinterpret it to their own damnation. The claim that Jesus is 100 percent God and 100% man is irrational. Therefore it is a broken teaching which anyone who believes Jesus spoke the truth when he said Scripture cannot be broken will not believe. Those that believe Jesus is the Son of God know he did not lie and therefore sooner or later they will see that the claim Jesus is both man and God is a false belief.
The Jews of today and 2000 years ago believe the Messiah is a human being the Son of David but the vast majority do not believe Jesus is the Messiah.
John 20 is not evidence in the claim Jesus is a human being but it is instead evidence that Jesus worships his Father and our Father as God and at the same time acknowledges the same is our God. Jesus is not claiming to worship himself.
Yes John makes his point in believing that Jesus is the Christ but throughout the book Jesus is presented as a divine being/God/god,however one may take it.So to believe Jesus is the Christ is to believe he’s God, a god or divine,supernatural being. To know Christ is to know God,and if you don’t know Christ then you don’t know God.
Andrew, the point of the Book of John is not to present Jesus as God, rather as his only begotten son and the messiah. It is this that is our faith. Jesus built his Church on this rock. But many prefer a different foundation.
T8…..You are wrong, the ROCK is GOD the Father who reveals to people he has chosen who Jesus is, in their minds so they can perceive him. The ROCK was God the FATHER, Words are not rocks nor can they cause the awareness of “truth” to be in a persons mind, words are only expressions of what lies in our minds, if you had understood what Jesus was actually talking about you Should have understood that. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours…………..gene
Gene,
You argument is flawed as there is no evidence that the word rock always symbolizes God. You can keep repeating it but that will not change the fact your argument is flawed.
Dear T8,
Yes Jesus built his church upon Peter who declared he was not only Christ but the son of the Living One, and in this is established the divinity of Christ as the Son by merit of resurrection. We know him as the divine Spirit,and no longer as flesh as St Paul also declared
You can claim a carnal foundation made of wood and straw or a spiritual foundation made of gold and precious gems.You may worship wood,straw and the carnal Christ if you wish but truth is you have never known a carnal Christ and you never will even as St Paul only knew that Spirit called Christ.
Kerwin…..Tell me where did i ever said the word ROCK “ALWAYS” MEANS GOD . What i said was the scripture where Jesus spoke about the ROCK that he would use to build the church on ,that scripture was talking about the power of God to get into the mind of a person and reaveal who JESUS was. That was the Rock he would use to build the chruch. Anyone who has the true spirit of God in them should easely understand and know who and what Jesus was talking about. Please try more to refrain from false reprensationtion of what i have said.
peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene
T8…..please show us any scripture that says goats are stubborn. The only stubborn animal i know of is a ass, or donky. God said that all the male firstborn of men or aninals wete his and they could be redemmed if the people chose to,but the firstborn of an ass,if they chose not to redeem it they were to break it’s neck, GOD did not want it either. Maybe you should be more worried about that T8,INSTEAD OF TOUSING OUT YOUR GARBAGE ON OTHERS WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
gene
can you explain the following scripture ?
RO 9:33 just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”1PE 2:8 and,
“A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”;
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.is the one that lay the stone /rock is also the rock he lays down ?
Terricca……Yes God the Father layed a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense (JESUS), GOD DID , it was not Jesus who layed it, So they would stumble over it, But that does not change what JESUS was talking about in the scripture we were discussing now does it? Jesus was not referring to himself or PETER IN THAT SCRIPTURE, BUT TO GOD THE FATHER. That shouldn’t be hard to understand if you read it in it’s complete context. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. …………..gene
Gene,
At one point you claimed the rock was God but since you claim you understanding has evolved to the rock being the “revelation of God” it is a stronger argument.
I am still going to say the rock is faith that Jesus is the Christ, the chief son of the living God but since that is revealed to a believer by God it appears to be a non-important difference.
Gene
it is has you said God that put the rock in place but the rock his Christ but the reason why it is a stumbling block is not because of the faith ,nor is it by Jesus teachings , it become the stumbling block for they have turn away from their God and so left the truth from the scriptures ,
and so it was that very truth that Jesus spoke that was the stumbling block ,this can easy be seen in the arguments that they had with Jesus
Terricca……i don’t have a problem with what you are saying about God putting block or rock there. What i am focusing on is a specifict scripture were were talking about, that it is the power of God the Father that is the ROCK THAT JESUS WILL USE TO BUILDTHE CHURCH BROTHER.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
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