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Hi Jodi
No Jodi, I’m not fooled.
Before Abraham WAS, THE SON OF GOD EXISTED!
IT’S NOT COMPLICATED.THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JOHN 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.…..with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
SIMPLICITY JODI
Hi Jodi,
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
I have put my Spirit upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Me: Jodi, what is the tense “I HAVE PUT” MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, TELLS YOU?
I HAVE PUT, IS A PRESENT PERFECT TENSE NO?
The present perfect tense is an English verb tense used for past actions that are related to or continue into the present.
ISN’T IT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL THAT BEFORE THE WORLD WAS,
JESUS DID RECEIVE THE SPIRIT UPON HIM?
OBVIOUS TO FULFILL GOD’S REDEMPTION PLAN RIGHT FROM THE DEPTH OF FIRE, SINCE ALL IN HIM AND ALL BY HIM! NO?
Zachariah 3:1 And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord: and Satan stood on his right hand to be his adversary. 2And the Lord said to Satan: The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan:
and the Lord that chose Jerusalem rebuke thee:
Is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Jodi the word “Jerusalem” stands for the human body.
Now the lord that chose Jerusalem is “THE WORD” MADE FLESH JESUS, THE SON OF MAN, JESUS HUMAN NATURE!
Now read
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, and hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: (John 1:1, Genesis 1:3)
from the time before IT WAS DONE
I was there,
“BEFORE IT WAS DONE” IN THE ABOVE IS A CLEAR REFERENCE TO THE REBEL IN HEAVEN!
As confirmed by Jesus in
John 8:23 And he said to them:
You are from BENEATH, (FROM FIRE AFTER THEY REBELLED) I am from ABOVE.
You are of this world, (SATANIC) I am not of this world.
24Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. ( PLURAL, HUMAN SINS)
For if you believe not that I AM HE, (ISAIAH 48:16)
you shall die in your sin. (NOTICE SIN IS SINGULAR, THE SIN OF THE REBEL IN HEAVEN)
25They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them:
ATTENTION Jodi please: THE JEWS SOMEHOW REALIZED THAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THEIR PAST, OF A PARTICULAR SIN, BUT THEY WERE NOT AWARE THAT HE REFERRED TO THE SIN OF THEIR REBEL. THEN JESUS CLARIFIED THINGS A BIT FOR THEM AND SAID)
The beginning, WHO ALSO SPEAK UNTO YOU.
NOTICE JESUS SAISD: WHO “ALSO” SPEAK UNTO YOU, IN THE SAME WAY, HE DID FOR NO USE, JUST BEFORE THEIR REBELLION.
NOW BACK TO ISAIAH ABOVE:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning:
JESUS SPOKE FROM WITHIN THEIR HEART THEN OF STONE!
and now the Lord God hath sent ME, and HIS SPIRIT.
AGAIN THE PRESENT PERFECT TENSE, WELL BACK IN THE PAST
GOD SENT JESUS THE WORD SPOKEN OF GOD AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD, THE HOLY GHOST, BOTH IN JESUS’EMBODIMENT AS THE SON OF GOD AND THE SON OF MAN. John4:36,37
NOW BACK TO JOHN 8:26
26Many things I have to speak and to judge of you…….
AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL, JESUS PREEXISTED AS “THE WORD” SPOKEN OF GOD FROM THE BEGINNING, ETERNAL LIFE, HIDDEN, WITHIN THE HEART OF ALL CREATURES, ALL IN HIM, LIKE HE IS IN YOU, AND YOU ARE SIMPLY IGNORING HIM! Hebrews 4:12!
JESUS IN JOHN ABOVE MADE IT CLEAR TO THE JEWS THAT HE WAS THE ONE WHO SPOKE, PRECISELY “THE WORD” OF GOD FOR NO USE, FROM WITHIN THEIR HEART WHEN THEY WERE STILL ANGELS ON THEIR WAY TO REBEL.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Carmel…. Why can’t you even quote one single scripture without changing it’s words to fit your decieved interputations of what it is saying. Talk about the “blind leading the blind”, your a perfect example of that here. Just quote the scriptures as written, not the way your carnel mind see’s them. You take our scriptures into areas they are not even suggesting, much less saying. Why not just write your own bible Carmel, and stop forcing our texts into saying what they are not saying?
Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene
Hi Berean,
You are right it is not complicated, Jesus has a lot to say prior to declaring “before Abraham was, I AM”, giving us the meaning.
Jesus worked very hard to declare who he was, he even quoted Isaiah concerning himself, many Jews didn’t get it and you don’t either.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.They did not hear Jesus in the slightest he didn’t say he saw Abraham, he said Abraham saw HIS DAY and he rejoiced over what he saw. Abraham saw a prophecy being fulfilled in the future, long time after he would be dead, a prophecy that was declared a long time before father Abraham was. Abraham saw Jesus’s resurrection and he rejoiced just as David did, as they knew that DAY also meant their redemption unto their own resurrection.
Jesus declared, I AM the LIGHT and I AM the resurrection. You just want to not apply that a man was anointed with the Spirit becoming our Christ, a calling to righteousness in order to be that LIGHT in order to be sent out into the world to deliver captives out of darkness. You make it about a pre-existing being, instead of the power of YHVH’s Spirit and what it can cause in a Son of Man. You don’t apply either that this was all God’s WORD from the beginning.
Prior to John 17,
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
AND READ,
1 Chron 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Berean, what did it mean that YHVH would be a Father unto David’s son where He would then also settle him into His kingdom? It meant Jesus would be born of water and of the Spirit without measure is what it meant. God declared at the very moment the Spirit descended upon Jesus that this was His beloved Son, not because he pre-existed. John also bore witness that he who had the Spirit descend upon him was God’s Son, also not because he pre-existed. All BECAUSE he was born of the Spirit where by such he would be caused to be faithful unto God’s will going to the cross to set us free from our sins, where he then was raised from the dead receiving the Holy Spirit as promised entering into God’s kingdom being exalted to God’s right hand. GLORY that was of God for this man declared before the world began!
John 17
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had OF (para) thee before the world was.Berean, it was Jesus the anointed of the Spirit that was SENT out into the world to do God’s work and glorify God giving him all the credit, saying that he does nothing of himself. That anointing of the Spirit was him being born of water and of the Spirit, born a Son of God and made into Jesus the anointed our Christ. He was the only mortal man to have been begotten of the Spirit without measure. This was in fact God’s Word made true in the flesh. Jesus was to be glorified with his flesh not seeing decay, with him being resurrected receiving the PROMISED Holy Spirit and entering the kingdom of God being exalted as the PROMISED Son of Man that would go and sit at God’s right hand. This too was all the Word of God made true in the flesh. Jesus was slain and resurrected unto God’s right hand according to God’s Plan, according to God’s Word. Jesus asked for and received that which was of God before the world was.
The very glory we read of the son of David in 1 Chronicles 17 was promised to receive. The very glory that we read Isaiah speak of in Isaiah 53, 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. The very glory that we read of in Psalms 89,26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. 28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
Jesus worked very hard to declare who he was, even after he rose from the dead he continued to teach of who he was all according to OT scripture.
Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Hi Gene,
YOU: Carmel…. Why can’t you even quote one single scripture without changing it’s words to fit your decieved interputations of what it is saying. Talk about the “blind leading the blind”, your a perfect example of that here.
Me: Gene, JUST PRODUCE THE SPECIFIC SCRIPTURE FROM MY POST, WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU I CHANGED ITS WORDING AND CONTRADICT ME USING YOUR SCRIPTURE PLEASE!
You: Just quote the scriptures as written, not the way your carnel mind see’s them. You take our scriptures into areas they are not even suggesting, much less saying.
ME: THAT’S PRECISELY WHAT I DID, ALL IN RED, NOW IT’S YOUR TASK TO PROVE OTHERWISE! NO?
Why not just write your own bible Carmel, and stop forcing our texts into saying what they are not saying?
AGAIN WHY DON’T YOU DO YOUR PART AND TELL US WHAT THEY ARE SAYING?
TILL THEN MINE STANDS!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Jodi,
YOU: Jesus was to be glorified with his flesh….
Me: EXPLAIN IN MORE DETAIL Jodi, WHAT YOUR PERCEPTION IN THE ABOVE IS
PLEASE:
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Carmel,
I said, ” Jesus was to be glorified with his flesh not seeing decay, with him being resurrected receiving the PROMISED Holy Spirit and entering the kingdom of God being exalted as the PROMISED Son of Man that would go and sit at God’s right hand.”
Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption (decay). 32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; 33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted — also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father — he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Carmel,
YOU:
Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.Jodi, what is the tense “I HAVE PUT” MY SPIRIT UPON HIM, TELLS YOU?
I HAVE PUT, IS A PRESENT PERFECT TENSE NO?ME: Isaiah 42 is a PROPHECY
keep reading, 6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Jesus speaks to Isaiah 42:1 being fulfilled in him after we read that the Spirit came down like a dove upon him,
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
The below speaks of the man Jesus as well,
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;…30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.Let’s go back to Isaiah 42 again, keeping in mind that we are speaking of the son of Jesse as according to Isaiah 11 and keep in mind Acts 17.
1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Carmel, Jesus did not pre-exist and while were at it, he most certainly was not our Creator. Isaiah 42 and Acts 17 make that abundantly clear, otherwise the bible becomes completely unreliable and thus worthless. Jesus is a man who follows God’s will and makes righteous judgements through the Spirit which came to dwell in him at the river Jordan and then came to dwell in him upon his resurrection.
Isaiah still has certain prophecies left to be fulfilled and it is a man with YVHV’s Spirit dwelling in him that such will be fulfilled. That Spirit in him and leading him, makes him a Son of God. The Son of Man is going to return in our Father’s glory, that glory is our Father YHVH’s Spirit that is upon a son of Jesse whereby he is able to fulfill God’s unfinished word.
Jodi…..”perfect”, they just don’t get it. well did Jesus say, “Father foregive them; for they know not what they do”, just, as it says, “the blind leading the blind”.
Just as Jesus also said……“Enter you in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way , that leads to destruction, and “MANY” there be that go in thereat; because strait is the gate , and narrow is the way which leads unto life, and “FEW” there be that find it.” Boy if thats not the truth!
Thanks for being here Jodi, you are a true light sis.
Peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Carmel, here are just a few of your hundreds of misquoted scriptures, that you have added text to.
John 8:23 And he said to them:
You are from BENEATH, (FROM FIRE AFTER THEY REBELLED) I am from ABOVE.
You are of this world, (SATANIC) I am not of this world.
24Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. ( PLURAL, HUMAN SINS)
For if you believe not that I AM HE, (ISAIAH 48:16)
you shall die in your sin. (NOTICE SIN IS SINGULAR, THE SIN OF THE REBEL IN HEAVEN)
Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……………gene
Jodi: Hi Mike,
This is what I was first addressing in my next post leading up to Proverbs 8.
1 Chronicles 17, “I will be his father, and he shall be my son…”
Psalms 89, “I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.”
These words were originally said about Solomon, right?
Jodi: There was NO SON YET and NO FIRSTBORN YET at the time of king David according to the passages above…
There was Solomon.
Jodi: …so when NT writers were speaking about the man who they knew as the promised son of David who had shed his blood and was resurrected receiving the promised Holy Spirit and was sitting at God’s right hand as they wrote, of course there was only one creation to reference Jesus Christ being the firstborn of to, a new creation, the eternal creation.
That is incorrect. The Jews were expecting a special messiah. They didn’t know at the time that this special messiah would be God’s heavenly son who emptied himself to be made in the form of a man. Jesus explained that to them in many ways after the fact, one of the most compelling being…
Matthew 22:41-46… While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says, “ ‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet.” ’ If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”
No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
The most learned OT scholars in the land could offer no answer. What reply would YOU have given Jesus, Jodi?
Anyway, it is not profitable for either of us to just keep talking past each other… you with your scriptures and I with mine. We need to actually get some CLOSURE on some of these scriptures, and so I have made the thread I was asking you about. I have made it a PRIVATE thread for now. We can decide if we want to open it up to everyone else at a later date.
I have made my first post, and look forward to your response. Here’s the link…
Jodi: You are removing words of the text to show me that my interpretation doesn’t match the text? That sounds odd my friend.
I was trying to make it easier for you to see that Jesus is the firstborn of ALL creation…. AND ALSO the firstborn from among the dead. But I’m going to defer to our new private thread for this and all other preexistence issues.
I repeatedly urged Kathi to do this thread so we could finally get some CLOSURE on her Yahweh Unity doctrine.
So I’m going to focus on that topic here, and you and I can finally get to the preexistence discussion I’ve been wanting with you for years on the new thread. 🙂👍
Carmel: Christ of God – Luke 9:20 JESUS, THE MIGHTY GOD, Isaiah 9:6, THE HIGHEST, NOT THE FATHER,
GODMAN!
Christ and Messiah both mean refer to someone who was anointed by God for a specific task/purpose. The Bible includes many different christs/messiahs – Jesus being one of them.
So the title “Christ/Messiah of God” simply means that Jesus is one of those who were anointed by God.
My question is how a person, say Saul, who was anointed BY God could then BE the very God who anointed him. So tell me what this means…
1 Samuel 24:6… and David saith to his men, ‘Far be it from me, by Jehovah; I do not do this thing to my lord — to the messiah of Jehovah — to put forth my hand against him, for the messiah of Jehovah he is.’
What does that phrase, “the messiah OF Jehovah” mean, Carmel?
Does it mean “Jehovah Himself”? Does it mean “GODMAN!” ? Please explain what that phrase literally means in the scripture above. Thanks.
Jodi: We all just keep going around in circles and I think this will stop that where I have hopes that people will finally give explanations to scriptures that I see are being ignored.
Amen! That’s precisely the reason I urged Kathi to start this thread, and the reason we now have our own preexistence thread. Enough circling already! 😎
Jodi: From atoms, to cells, to looking at entire eco systems, we see creations of God’s wisdom.
Sounds to me like you’re conflating “the wisdom IN God’s creation” with various different “creations OF God’s wisdom” – as if God created different “wisdoms” with each thing He created.
But I’m sure we’ll touch on Prov 8 again in the new thread where we can cut through the noise and irrelevant distractions and hold each others’ feet to the fire.
Berean: No Jodi, I’m not fooled.
Before Abraham WAS, THE SON OF GOD EXISTED!
IT’S NOT COMPLICATED.THIS IS CONFIRMED BY JOHN 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.…..with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
SIMPLICITY JODI
That is 100% scripturally correct. Just like when the Greek grammar of John 14:9 has, “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I AM among you such a long time?”, we know that the meaning is, “even after I HAVE BEEN among you” – which is why most English Bibles translate the Greek present tense as a past tense in 14:9.
But the same translators who do that for 14:9 purposely don’t do it for 8:58, because they think YHVH means “I AM”, and try to trick gullible people into thinking that Jesus was somehow claiming to BE Yahweh with his statement in 8:58.
Berean is, of course, correct. The proper meaning of 8:58 is, “Before Abraham existed, I existed.”
Oh, just thought of an English example of a “historical present” that was described in my previous post. Picture a 14 year old girl talking to her BFF…
And then she goes, well I liked Brian first! And so I say, that doesn’t matter, because he likes me, not you! And then she is all like, I hate you!
The bolded words are all English present tense – but they are historical presents that describe actions that occurred in the past, but that the speaker wants the listener to experience as if they were right there when those things happened.
Jodi: I have started a chart that I have titled The Pre-existence Debate and of course John 8 is on there. I am hoping to share it soon and as debate continues I can always add to it.
You’re welcome to use the Preexistence Scriptural Database that I began right here 12 years ago if you want. I just kept editing the first post as people provided more and more scriptures that indicate Jesus existed before his time on earth – so that first post has them all in order of when they appear in the Bible.
I was just scrolling through some of the posts on that old database. They are from 12 years ago, and I was enjoying the blast from the past. But look at me and Gene – even 12 years ago…
We could have had that exchange just yesterday! Some things never change. Gene is still wrong after all these years, and I’m still right. 😉
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