The Yahweh Unity

[Jodi]

Hi Mike,

Sounds great, start the thread! 🙂

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Regarding this post:

LU:  Mike,

You said:

In the Bible, Jesus is called…

1.  Son of God.

2.  Only begotten son of God.

3.  Servant of God.

4.  Priest of God.

5.  Holy one of God.

6.  Word of God.

7.  Anointed one of God.

8.  Messenger of God.

9.  Sacrificial lamb of God.

10.  Prophet of God.

I call Jesus all of those things because the scriptures call Jesus all of those things.
How about what Peter calls Him here:

2 Peter 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Mike, do you call Him your God and Savior Jesus Christ?

No I don’t call Jesus that.  We’ve already discussed this recently.  I’m willing to discuss it again if you want to, but only AFTER you acknowledge that my answer was accurate, and scripturally backed.

In case you forgot, you (seemingly) chided me for calling Jesus God’s holy servant.  I showed you that I call Jesus exactly what the Bible calls Jesus.  I would like you to acknowledge that I AM calling Jesus exactly what the Bible calls him before asking why I DON’T call him this thing you think Peter called him.

In other words, I’d love to see, “Fair enough, Mike.  You are indeed calling Jesus things that he is called in scripture, so I have no valid complaint or reason to question you about it.  That being said, do you also call Jesus…?”

To which my first question will be to ask why you DON’T ever call Jesus a servant, priest, anointed one, messenger, and prophet of God like I do.  And once you’ve answered that, we can discuss 2 Peter 1:1, Phil 2:6, or any other scriptures you think teach that Jesus is the Most High God.

Mike you said in the above quote:

I call Jesus all of those things because the scriptures call Jesus all of those things.

Scripture does call Jesus the Servant to YHVH and that He is…the servant by creating all things and in many other ways. Yet you don’t believe Jesus created one thing. You call Him the Servant to YHVH but deny how He served YHVH in creation by creating. Also, you say that you call Jesus the terms by which the Bible calls Jesus but then you admit to not really calling Him all things that the Bible calls Him, such as our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

You claim that Jesus is “a god” but not your god. Do you also claim that Jesus is “a savior” but not your savior? Whose “god” do you claim that He is if not yours?? Whose Savior is He if not yours??

You said:

I would like you to acknowledge that I AM calling Jesus exactly what the Bible calls him before asking why I DON’T call him this thing you think Peter called him.

You just claimed to call Jesus “EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE CALLS HIM” but you DON’T call Jesus exactly what the Bible calls Him. You call Him SOME of the things that the Bible calls Him. So do the Muslims, yet they deny the names that are among His highest and so do you. You fall short by not including in you “names” list by leaving out that He is YHVH, and our God and Savior, for instance. That is like telling a history class that Trump was a rich guy from a tv show but leaving out the part about him being president and leader of the strongest country in the world.

Not sure why you want me to give you credos for undserstating the role of Jesus by leaving out that Jesus is our God and Savior and YHVH. Btw, I have used all or most of those names in your list somewhere in my many posts, in quotes of scripture especially. I tend to focus on the names that people here deny in order to show that they deny some main doctrines of the Bible and are missing the bigger and magnificent picture of who the only begotten Son of God is to be honored as. He is our God and Savior to the glory of His Father, Mike.

[mikeboll64]

LU:  Sometimes the word “God” is directed to one person (the Father whose name is YHVH)…

So then every single reference to the Most High in the entire Bible using either “God” or “Yahweh” could be referring to the Father alone, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the Son?  And then that would be why they always refer to “God” and “Yahweh” as a He?

Kathi, can you provide a single verse that refers to the Most High using either “God” or “Yahweh” where it MUST BE either referring to the Son or to the Unity of both of them?  (In other words, it is explicitly spelled out for us.)

Thanks.

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Regarding this post:

Here are some names Yahweh was called in the OT…

Would you consider any of those a matter of Yahweh changing His name to a different name?

You copy a list of names (plural) and then not see that each of those names are different and new to the others?

YHVH our Righteousness became a new name for the Son. He was not YHVH our Righteousness before He became our righteousness. President Donald Trump was a NEW NAME for Donald Trump. He was not always President Donald Trump. Jesus was not always YHVH our Righteousness. He was YHVH but not always YHVH our Righteousness. Trump was always Donald Trump but not always President Donald Trump. Seems like a clear idea to understand.

[Lightenup]

Mike,

You asked:

Kathi, can you provide a single verse that refers to the Most High using either “God” or “Yahweh” where it MUST BE either referring to the Son or to the Unity of both of them?  (In other words, it is explicitly spelled out for us.)

Heb 1:8 But about the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever,

and justice is the scepter of Your kingdom.

9You have loved righteousness

and hated wickedness;

therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

above Your companions with the oil of joy.”

10And:

“In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

11They will perish, but You remain;

they will all wear out like a garment.

12You will roll them up like a robe;

like a garment they will be changed;

but You remain the same,

and Your years will never end.”

2 Peter 1:To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

John 20:27 Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!” 29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”…

YHVH as a Unity:

Deut 10 17 For Yahweh your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the awesome, who doesn’t respect persons, nor takes reward.

together with this:

Rev “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

 

[Lightenup]

Mike,

You asked:

So then every single reference to the Most High in the entire Bible using either “God” or “Yahweh” could be referring to the Father alone, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the Son?  And then that would be why they always refer to “God” and “Yahweh” as a He?

Yes, it “could be” referring to the Father, however in all of His titles, the Father is never that title, alone nor do they have nothing whatsoever to do with the Son. For instance, the title “Father,” requires the presence of the Son. “Creator” requires the participation of the Son, etc.

YHVH is referred by singular pronouns because that is how a unity is often addressed. YHVH can also use a singular pronoun when referring specifically to the Father or the Son.

The name Israel is referred by singular pronouns when referring to the nation, a unity of people who descended from Jacob or who joined themselves with those people. The name Israel is also referred by a singular pronoun when referring to Jacob alone, the father of the nation of Israel.

[Lightenup]

Jodi, have I answered your questions? It has been a while and I don’t believe that you have specifically addressed me with a follow-up question. If I’m wrong please re-post.

[carmel]

Hi Mike,

Hey there Carmel.  I’m going to pick just a few of  Jesus’ titles out of your long list to discuss…

Bread of God – John 6:33; 50

Christ of God – Luke 9:20

Holy One of God – Mark 1:24

Image of God – 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15

Lamb of God – John 1:29

Son of God – Luke 1:35

Wisdom of God – 1 Corinthians 1:24

Word of God – Revelation 19:13

All of these contain the phrase “of God”. 

What does that phrase mean to you?

ME:  A PHRASE ATTRIBUTED TO THE TITLE OF AN UNFATHOMABLE……..

MIKE ABOVE AT THE END AS YOU CAN SEE, I SIMPLY PUT SOME DOTS, AND I LEFT IT LIKE THAT IN ORDER FOR YOU TO REPLACE IT WITH YOUR PERCEPTION ACCORDINGLY, SINCE ACCORDING TO YOU

WHAT APPLIES TO GOD IT IS QUITE ORDINARY, IN FACT THAT ORDINARY, THAT IT COULD QUITE EASILY BE REPLACED WITH ANYTHING FROM THIS WORLD EVEN WITH A MERE  NAME ATTRIBUTED TO A HUMAN, I MEAN;

CORRUPTED, MORTAL, SINNER, AND ALL THINGS GOD HAS NOT A SPECK  OF, NEVER MIND:

 

Pro Tip: I Replace the word “God” with the word Carmel” in each of those, ……

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

 

 

[Jodi]

Good Morning LU,

Wow sounds like you have been really busy! Good to here that everything is going well!

YOU: YHVH the Father and YHVH the Son do communicate, before flesh, during flesh, and after resurrection. The Son does everything the Father tells Him to do in every position. Try not to get too hung up on the Father telling the Son things. It shows that the Son does what the Father tells Him to do and it tells the Bible reader that also.

ME: I think you missed my point of the Father speaking to Jesus, He spoke to him as the Son of MAN when He told him that he would sit at His right hand. Jesus then also preached that he specifically as the Son of Man would sit at God’s right hand and that he specifically as the Son of Man would return in the glory of the Father. It’s not about the Father telling Jesus things, the Father commanded Moses and others as well, the point I made was about the significance that the promise was made by God unto A SON OF MAN.

YOU: The Son is perfect before flesh, in flesh, and after resurrection. We can trust Him to say and do the right thing and that it always lines up with the will of His Father.

ME: Jesus on earth did what the Father commanded through the Spirit that came to dwell in him without measure at the river. We also know that the Son of Man returns and does God’s will once again through the Spirit of YHVH that dwells in him. Having the Spirit of YHVH dwelling in you is being begotten of the Spirit of YHVH, making you a Son of YHVH.

Jesus on earth we are told was perfected.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

He became the author of eternal salvation upon being made perfect doing so through YHVH’s Spirit that lived in him. Jesus could do nothing of himself.

Can you admit LU that the prophecy of Isaiah 11 is not yet fully fulfilled, God’s Word is not yet fully fulfilled regarding a Son of Man bringing forth peace and rest destroying the wicked all through this man having YHVH’s Spirit living in him?

How is that not what then makes him a Son, one begotten by God? He who is of the loins of David that will sit on David’s throne eternally according to the flesh was raised from the dead receiving the Holy Spirit, where God’s prophecy is said to be fulfilled, “this day I have begotten you”. Jesus said a man must be born of the Spirit to reach God’s kingdom. Jesus’s human flesh was not allowed to see decay it was raised to life where upon it received the Spirit and he was exalted as the Son of Man to YHVH’s right hand entering YHVH’s house, YHVH’s kingdom just as God had promised unto David’s son.

The man Jesus was made perfect obeying God going to the cross and as he is led by the Spirit that came to live in him upon his resurrection he walks in all of God’s ways, making him remain perfect. He’s not perfect because he himself is YHVH, he is perfect as a man through YHVH. Just as YHVH made Moses a God unto Pharoah, YHVH made Jesus a God unto the world. Moses through the Spirit was a god as he performed miracles, Jesus was likewise a god on earth through the Spirit and will be a god through the Spirit when he returns.

YOU: Remember that the Son emptied Himself in order to become flesh and returns to the glory which He had with the Father before the foundation of the world

ME: Jesus receiving the Spirit without measure is him being in the form of God and that is the glory that people beheld in Jesus, that he had been begotten by God filled with grace and truth, the only begotten caused to walk in all of God’s ways. This was God’s Word by the prophet Isaiah made true in the flesh, made true in the human Jesus, made true in the Son of Jesse as according to the word of God. Further God’s word was of a resurrection unto eternal life for mankind. YHVH’s word from long ago was that He would raise man from the dead and put his Spirit in man and cause him to walk in all his ways forevermore. Jesus is the firstborn of that promise, which was from before the world was.

1 John 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

LU, The Word from the beginning was eternal life, and the resurrected man Jesus of Nazareth was that Word made true in the flesh. That Word was WITH the Father from the beginning. Likewise the Word that was with the Father from the beginning was the man who would bring it forth and be the first to receive it himself.  Jesus was proof of YHVH’s word that had been with YHVH from the beginning, man having eternal life. Where the Spirit is there is righteousness and life, one must be born of the Spirt, which the man Jesus was born of upon being raised from the dead.

[Jodi]

Hi LU,

I noticed what you said to Mike, your comparison of Israel and YHVH.

So yes, Israel is one person Jacob, and then Israel also represents Jacob and his children. As well Israel represents a kingdom in scripture and today it’s known as a country.

So if we were to make a direct comparison,

YHVH is one person and then YHVH also represents Him and  His children.  If we are indeed giving a direct comparison this would mean that YHVH never represents just YHVH’s child it would always represent either just him or him and his son together, so there would be no time that YHVH could represent just the son in scripture.

Okay, okay, you don’t want a direct comparison. You just want to use Israel to show that a name can mean a unit of persons, and that is all you are after.  You just want an example where a name equates to a unity and so then you want to make an assertion that then that name can represent each one individually, even though that is not how the name Israel itself is actually used.

If the Son of Man Jesus said that he was ascending to his Father and our Father, and you want to assert that Jesus is YHVH using the name Israel as a comparison,  than you might as well say that we are YHVH too.

[GeneBalthrop]

LU……Jesus is a prototype of all of humanity, he is the first to recieve perfection, “of many” .  The trinitarian view of Jesus  being a God is completely a destorted view of him,  you must come to see Jesus as one of us human being, who God “perfected”,  by his Holy Spirit. The exact same way he must do us , Jesus is just the “first of many brothern”, just as scripture says. 

We must all be born again, the same way he was, by the Spirit of God, and all who have the Spirit of God dwelling “in” them are even now considered son’s of God.

Satan want’s us all to move Jesus’ human idenity away from our own, so he and his ministers created the false “DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY”, for that very perpose,  it’s Satan way of deception, to move Jesus away from his human existence.  He dosen’t want anyone to understand that what God did for the man Jesus, he will also do for us all.   He has muddied the waters of people understanding by creating a different Jesus then the true scriptures teach.

Remenber what Jesus said  about the deception that would decieve many , would be about who he really was,  saying , “many shall  come in my name  saying I am the Christ , and decieve “MANY”.  

The Jesus that nearly all christendom today preach is a “false” Jesus,  just as Jesus said it would be.  The Jesus that is preached today , of him being a God, breakes the first commandment of God, “you shall have no God besides me, neither shall you make any “image” of me in heaven above nor earth beneath”, Turning Jesus into a God, breakes that conmanment, which turns the “IMAGE” of him into a “MAN OF SIN”.  2THS 2.  just as the apostle Paul prophecied would happen, and it has happened. It all started happening in the church at the very time of Paul, and John, And has continued to this very day. 

Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

You: LU……Jesus is a prototype of all of humanity, he is the first to recieve perfection,

“of many” .  The trinitarian view of Jesus  being a God is completely a destorted view of him,  you must come to see Jesus as one of us human being,

who God “perfected”,  by his Holy Spirit.

Gene, LETS’ READ SCRIPTURE :

John 4:34 Jesus saith to them: My meat is to do the will of him that sent me,

that I may perfect his work.

GENE JESUS PERFECTED GOD’S WORK. CLEAR?

NOW ANSWER:  HOW DID HE DO THAT?

The exact same way he must do us,

THE TRUTH IS Gene:

 (A) THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT  WAS SENT BY JESUS,

(B) WOULD DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, ONLY WHAT HE RECEIVED OF JESUS CHRIST,

GODMAN!

THE PURE FACT THAT 

JESUS CHRIST SENT HIM! READ:

John16:7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go:

for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you;

but if I go, I will send him to you.

KEEP ON READING:

John:16:12 I have yet many things to say to you:

but you cannot bear them now. 

13But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.

For he shall not speak of himself;

but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall show you. 

ATTENTION Mr. Genius:

14He shall glorify ME;

AS GODMAN

because he shall RECIEVE of MINE, and shall show it to you.

ANSWER Gene, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FATHER?

WHY DIDN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT RECEIVE ANYTHING OF THE FATHER?

OBVIOUS  JESUS IS THE HIGHEST! 

GODMAN!

TILL THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD WHEN GOD WOULD BE ALL IN ALL, ATTENTION: AS

JESUS CHRIST

GODMAN!

HERE IT COMES MR. Gene:

15All things whatsoever the Father hath,

ARE MINE.

Therefore I said,

that he shall receive of mine, and show it to you.

Jesus is just the “first of many brothern”,

A TASK THE FATHER COULD NOT FULFILL ALL BY HIMSELF ON EARTH SIMPLY AS

HE IS THE MOST POWERFUL A SPIRIT! WHILE 

JESUS IS ONE SUBSTANCE BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH 

John17:10:And all my things are thine,

and thine are mine;

and I AM glorified in them.

 

just as scripture says. 

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[carmel]

Hi Jodi, and Gene,

YOU: than you might as well say that we are YHVH too.

Me: That’s right Jodi:

WE ARE! 

ALL IN JESUS CHRIST GODMAN!  John1:1, Colossians 1:17,

John17:5 And now glorify thou me, O Father,

with thyself, with the glory which I HAD,( JESUS PRE-EXISTED AS THE EMBODIMENT OF GOD; GODMAN, SPIRITFLESH. ) 

before the world was, with thee.

John 17:10 And all my things are thine, and thine are mine;

and I AM glorified in THEM. 

 

20And not for them only do I pray,

but for them also who through their word shall believe in

ME;

 WHY BELIEVE IN JESUS AND NOT JUST IN GOD? THE ANSWER IS HEREUNDER:

21That they all may be one,

as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee;

that they also may be one in US;

that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

NOTICE:

….ONE IN US:

THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER AND THE FLESH OF THE SON!

THE FATHER AND THE SON,  ONE SUBSTANCE AS IT WAS IN THE BEGINNING, John1:1 AND BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. John17:5

 

22And the glory which thou HAST given me, I HAVE given to them; that they may be one,

as we also are one: 

23(ONLY) I in them, 

and (ONLY)thou in me;

that they (the entire human race) may be made PERFECT in one: 

DEFINITELY,

PERFECT IN JESUS CHRIST, AND SINCE ONLY GOD IS PERFECT! 

JESUS IS 

GODMAN

and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. 

24Father, I will that where I AM,

GODMAN AS CHRIST!

they also whom thou HAST given me may be WITH ME;

GODMEN AS CHRISTS!

1 John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear,

we shall be like to him:

because we shall see him as he is.

John17:24…that they may see MY GLORY which thou HAST given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world.

NOW TO:

John20:17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to (THE GLORY OF) my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them:

I ascend to (THE GLORY OF) my Father and to your Father, to (THE GLORY OF) my God and your God.

JESUS ON HIS RESURRECTION MADE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE

ALL AUTHENTIC IN HIM,

NOT YET PERFECT AS ONLY GOD IS PERFECT.

THAT SAME EVENING AT SIX, THE HOLY GHOST IN THE GLORY OF JESUS CHRIST

GODMAN ON THE CROSS, AND 

JESUS’ RESURRECTED BODY, MORE PRECISE THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL AUTHENTIC IN “THE WORD” JESUS,

THE SON OF MAN,

INTEGRATED AND BECAME 

ONE SUBSTANCE IN JESUS CHRIST!

GOD AND FATHER OF ALL FLESH! John17:2

THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD IN

JESUS CHRIST, AND PRESENTED US PERFECT TO THE FATHER.

 

Ephesians 1:5Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through 

JESUS CHRIST

UNTO HIMSELF:

 

Colossians 1:22 Yet now he hath reconciled IN THE BODY OF HIS FLESH through death,

TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND UNSPOTTED, and blameless before him: 

 

1Peter 1:3 Blessed be “THE GOD”, and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

who according to his great mercy hath REGENERATED US unto a lively hope,

by THE RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4Unto an INHERITANCE INCORRUPTIBLE, AND UNDEFILED,

and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation,

ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

Now Jodi read again hereunder:

1Peter 1:3 Blessed be “THE GOD”, and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

WHY IN THIS INTRODUCTION Peter, SAID:

“THE GOD”, and Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

 

 

 

 

 

[mikeboll64]

.

 

[GeneBalthrop]

Carmel…….GOD THE FATHER “IS” HOLY, AND IS “SPIRIT”,   GET IT ?, BEING a Spirit he can and does dwell in us “himself” exactly as he did in Jesus?  But non of that makes us godmen, nor did it make Jesus a Godman either. Or haven’t you ever read this,  “the Son of man can do “NOTHING” of himself, the Father who is “IN” him “HE” does the work.  Ouestion is Carmel,  do you “truly believe what Jesus said? 

JESUS spoke to us not his words but the words of the Father saying,  “the words i am telling you are “NOT” “MY”, words,  but the words of Him that sent me”   question is Carmel do you “TRULY” believe what Jesus hinself said?  

Jesus was the word of God in this sence,  He is the fulfilled “PROPHESIDE” word of God, that came true, it was the “flesh man” Jesus Christ? , that came true when the flesh,  man child Jesus was born.That was the word of God fulfilled,  in the flesh.   That had nothing to do with Jesus becoming “himself” God’s words . God and his words are his “own” words , just as you and your words are are you. No other person can be “your” word, but you, the same applies to God, Jesus just  “quoted “,God the Fathers words to Us , just as he said he did, but quoting someone does not make you that person you are quoting.  As you false teachers try to make Jesus out to be. 

The problem is Carmel you do not “truly”, believe Jesus, or you would know that!

Peace and love to you and yours Carmel……….gene

 

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

You: Carmel…….GOD THE FATHER “IS” HOLY, AND IS “SPIRIT”,   GET IT ?,

BEING a Spirit he can and does dwell in us “himself”

exactly as he did in Jesus?  

Genesis 2:15 And the Lord God took man, and put him into the paradise for pleasure, to dress it, and keep it. 16And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat: 17But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat.

for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it,

thou shalt die the death.

Luke 9:60 And Jesus said to him:

Let the dead bury their dead:

but go thou, and preach the kingdom of God. 

Gene, reading the above scripture we are aware that from Adam’s sin humanity BECAME 

SPIRITUALLY DEAD,

AND TO BE MORE CLEAR CURSED

BY THE INDWELLING OF SATAN THROUGH CAIN, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL THE DEAD!

NOW ANSWER:

HOW WOULD YOU EXPECT THAT GOD THE FATHER NON-MORTAL, “THE HOLIEST” AND “THE LIFE” ABIDES EVER IN HUMANS? WHO ARE MORTAL, AND CURSED.

SCRIPTURES PLEASE:

 

WE AS HUMANS ARE NOT IN THE POSITION TO SEE GOD’S FACE AND LIVE,

NEVER MIND GOD DWELL IN US!

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

 

[carmel]

Hi Gene,

You: Or haven’t you ever read this,  “the Son of man can do “NOTHING” of himself, the Father who is “IN” him “HE” does the work.  

Me: WHEN JESUS SPOKE THOSE WORDS HE WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED AS GODMAN! 

NOW READ:

John13:3 Knowing that the Father had given him

ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS,

and that he came from God, and goeth to God; 

Gene, CAN YOU READ THE ABOVE?

GOD THE FATHER GAVE JESUS ALL THINGS INTO HIS HANDS EVEN WHILE ON EARTH PRECISELY BEFORE HIS PASSION AND DEATH. 

THE FATHER’S SPIRITUAL WORK  IN JESUS WAS FINISHED!

JESUS DIDN’T NEED HIS FLESH BODY ANYMORE!

HE  SPIRITUALIZED HIS BODY THROUGH HIS HOLY WORK AND PASSED IT TO THE HOLY GHOST. WELL ASSERTED AND CLEAR HEREUNDER:

John13:31When he therefore was gone out, Jesus said:

Now is the Son of man glorified, (Jesus ‘flesh became spirit in the Holy Ghost)

and God is glorified in him. ( God, in the Holy Ghost, acquired Jesus’ flesh Acts 20:28)

32If God be glorified in him, (If God be glorified as a human in Jesus)

God also will glorify him in himself; ( God also will glorify Jesus as God)

and immediately will he glorify him. ( immediately on Jesus’ death, the fact that God gave all things into Jesus’ hands)

THUS JESUS FLESH BODY, SPIRITUALIZED IN THE HOLY GHOST, WAS READY TO BE GIVEN  BACK TO THE FATHER WHO FURNISHED IT, WHILE HIS FLESH BODY, AFTER BEING GIVEN AS A RANSOM, WAS READY TO BE GIVEN TO HUMANITY  ON HIS RESURRECTION!

THE ONLY HUMAN BODY HOLY IN THE POSITION TO RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM THE FATHER SENT BY JESUS, ATTENTION Mr. Gene:

ONCE THEY ACCEPT JESUS AS THEIR SAVIOR!

THE FACT THAT GOD GAVE ALL THINGS INTO JESUS’ HANDS!

AS JESUS DIED BOTH FOR THE FATHER AND HUMANITY!

 

Peace and love in Jesus Christ

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi, I see you are fielding some of Jodi’s preexistence claims here.  And Carmel’s also here talking about the Trinity.  I see all three of them (Yahweh Unity, Trinity, Preexistence) directly related to a discussion to determine what the Bible truly teaches about our Lord Jesus.

I begged off a couple of Jodi’s posts because I didn’t know if you’d consider it derailing your thread.  With your permission, I’ll address those posts here, since we’re all just trying to present a case of who the Bible says Jesus is, right?

Let me know ASAP, because I’m 3 pages behind and looking forward to catching up on all of it this weekend.  Thanks.

[mikeboll64]

LU: Berean,

You said:

Conclusion :

FATHER IS GOOD

The SON IS GOOD
Absolutely Berean, AMEN!

God is good.  The Son of God is good.

Can I get an “absolutely, AMEN!” too, Kathi?

[mikeboll64]

Jodi: Let’s start with, “Yahweh created me as the first of His works” and your claim this supports a pre-existing Jesus.

This passages from Proverbs 8 is not speaking of Jesus, it is speaking of the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, to which the Son of Man Jesus himself received at the river Jordan fulfilling God’s word spoken by the prophet Isaiah.

Proverbs 8: 22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

There is no meaning “possessed” for that Hebrew word.  There is only “acquire (usually through means of payment)” and “create”.

“Possessed” was something a translator pulled out of thin air because it seemed bizarre that God had to ACQUIRE wisdom in the beginning.

Here is some good info from the NET Bible scholars…

1 tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6).

Pause here to look up these three verses, and determine if “create” is a much better translation than “acquire”.  (Again, there is no meaning of “possess”.  The NET scholars are wrong on that point, as you’ll see.)  Continuing on with their technical note…

Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. 

So it was later confirmed that “create” was one of the meanings of that Hebrew word – which is clear from the three verses above.  It’s also clear that, although the only two meanings are “create” and “acquire”, translators who didn’t want to say God either created or acquired wisdom chose the translation “possess” – which isn’t even one of the meanings of that word.  Continuing on…

Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42).

And that bolded part is the only thing you really need to take from this argument I’m making.  You must deal with the fact that this “wisdom” in Prov 8 was “born”, “given birth”, “established” in the immediately following verses.

Now, does it make sense that God “acquired” the “Spirit of Wisdom” in the beginning – as if He didn’t already have wisdom?

Does it make sense that God “created” the “Spirit of Wisdom” in the beginning – as if it didn’t already exist?

Of course not.  Hence the invalid translation of “possess”.  But scroll through this list of every use of that Hebrew word in the Bible, and list any instances where you believe “possess” is the proper meaning…

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_7069.htm

Notice that each time the word demands either “acquire” or “create”.

Now, given that Prov 8:23, 24, 25 & 27 all have other Hebrew words that mean “brought forth into existence”, it is a no-brainer that verse 22 would also have the meaning of “create”.

So now, using a proper translation, like the NET’s, “The LORD created me as the beginning of his works, before his deeds of long ago”, how can it possibly be talking about literal wisdom, or “the Spirit of Wisdom”?  On the other hand, Jesus is directly and explicitly called “the wisdom of God”, right?

And Christ is also called “the firstborn of every creature”, and calls himself “the beginning of the creation of God”.

So now read that passage in Proverbs 8:22-31, and picture this as a PERSON saying he was there when God created heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them.  Because that’s what the passage is saying.

And this PERSON was “created”, “given birth”, “established”, and “born” according to that same passage.

Thoughts?

[Author]

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