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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,17:13) Excellent scriptures, Keith! I'm following along….
Thank you,
Mandy
MandyYou are welcome!
Hi WJ,
And that worship is defined in the verse you quoted as being in spirit and in truth.
But you do not suggest we should do the same for the Son?
And the Spirit ?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 25 2008,10:30) Yes of course follow him. When is the last time you created anything? 
I have created a lot of different things.
I have a number of websites that I created. God didn't create them, although he may have inspired me. My son created some paintings the other day. In my opinion it was right up there with a lot of modern art.My son was created too. However I admit that God created him through myself and my wife.
God also created the cosmos through Christ.
The word 'through' shouldn't be written off.
10 members online at once (and one in hiding
) wow – that is the most I've ever seen online at once here since I've joined.Jesus was and is worshiped/honored as the son of God and the lamb of God.
Nowhere in scripture is he worshiped/honored as God.
So no point in arguing that he is worshiped as God is there?
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”Revelation 5: 12-14
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.If anyone says that he is worshiped as God, then they are entitled to that opinion, but they cannot support it with scripture.
Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,17:59) Hi Sis what's the time now, still you are awake?
It's 11:10 p.m. here in WA State.I usually stay up late, it's the only time I have to myself.
t8,
Jesus as the Lamb that was slain does seem to receive the same sing-song of praise that is directed to the “one on the throne”. What do you make of this?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,18:08) Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,17:59) Hi Sis what's the time now, still you are awake?
It's 11:10 p.m. here in WA State.I usually stay up late, it's the only time I have to myself.
Thanks Mandy here it is 11:45 am dt 25-06-08Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,18:15) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,18:08) Quote (gollamudi @ June 25 2008,17:59) Hi Sis what's the time now, still you are awake?
It's 11:10 p.m. here in WA State.I usually stay up late, it's the only time I have to myself.
Thanks Mandy here it is 11:45 am dt 25-06-08
I seemed to recall that you and I are backwards exactly. When it's 11:30 AM here, it's 11:30 PM there……I just read my post. I'm getting too tired. I'm starting to make interesting sentences. I better head to bed.
Good night all!
Mandy
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,18:10) t8, Jesus as the Lamb that was slain does seem to receive the same sing-song of praise that is directed to the “one on the throne”. What do you make of this?
He receives praise as the lamb of God who receives power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”First off he receives, and secondly he is not being worshiped as God, but because he was slain and worthy to receive the things mentioned.
God doesn't need to receive wisdom, power, and wealth, and God cannot die.
Jesus is not worshiped/honored as God in this verse.
Hi t8
Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,18:06)
Jesus was and is worshiped/honored as the son of God and the lamb of God.Nowhere in scripture is he worshiped/honored as God.
Maybe you can show me a scripture that says they “worshipped/honoured” God as God”!You are assuming, because if Yeshua is being worshipped as God then that is because he is God. The burden of proof is on you, for what we do have is about 17 times in scripture that the NT writers used the same word ‘PROSKUNEO” for the worship of Yeshua that Yeshua used for the true worship of the Father.
Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,18:06)
So no point in arguing that he is worshiped as God is there?
Then why are you arguing that he is not?Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,18:06)
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Well since until this time there is no record of the Hebrews ever calling any other man “The Son of God” and worshipping him, then again the evidence leans towards Yeshua as the Son of God being perceived as being equal to God as a valid assessment, especially since John recorded Thomas calling him his Lord and God without correction or rebuke and then immediately saying…But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. Jn 20:31
Not to forget that John also wrote about the Word that was with God and was God who came in the flesh and who also spoke of the Glory he had with the Father as God…
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18
So your point is not well made and surely cannot be proven by scriptures.
Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,18:06)
Revelation 5: 12-14
12 In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
14 The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.If anyone says that he is worshiped as God, then they are entitled to that opinion, but they cannot support it with scripture.
Look closely t8, the same words are used towards Yeshua as the Father, so how can you say this supports your claim?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,18:10 t8,) Jesus as the Lamb that was slain does seem to receive the same sing-song of praise that is directed to the “one on the throne”. What do you make of this?
Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,18:58)
He receives praise as the lamb of God who receives power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”First off he receives, and secondly he is not being worshiped as God, but because he was slain and worthy to receive the things mentioned.
Well are you forgetting your own preexistence theology here? How convenient? Suddenly now Yeshua is just a man, or something other than, (when are you going to tell us what Yeshua is?)Yeshua as you yourself believes, left his place of Glory he shared with the Father and came in the likeness of sinful flesh. Phil 2
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. 2 Cor 8:9
All that he had… “power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” he left and came in the flesh, humbled himself even to the death of the cross and now he is “Receiving” back “power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
You do believe this don’t you t8?
Quote (t8 @ June 25 2008,18:58)
God doesn't need to receive wisdom, power, and wealth, and God cannot die.Jesus is not worshiped/honored as God in this verse.
The Word/God does if he came in the flesh and gave it up for us and has now returned to his previous glory that he shared with the Father as God.
WJ…..it says we may profess Jesus as Lord (TO THE GLORY OF GOD) never does it say we profess Jesus as God the Father does it. Jesus Said the Father was (GREATER) then Him. They are not one and the same Being then. When the Lamb went and took the scroll from the one who sat on the throne it was not Himself siting on that throne was it, but Gd the Father.
IMO………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2008,03:33) WJ…..it says we may profess Jesus as Lord (TO THE GLORY OF GOD) never does it say we profess Jesus as God the Father does it. Jesus Said the Father was (GREATER) then Him. They are not one and the same Being then. When the Lamb went and took the scroll from the one who sat on the throne it was not Himself siting on that throne was it, but Gd the Father. IMO………gene
Hi GBInteresting you should say that.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
Imagine that, Yeshua is standing in the midst of the throne and the Father is sitting.And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Three points here GB.
1. Why didn’t the 24 elders fall down before the Father and give him the glory?
2. Do the 24 elders say, “thou art worthy to the Glory of the Father”?
3. Why didn’t the 24 elders say, “The Father hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation”?
Why didn’t they give the Father credit here? After all you say Yeshua didn’t do anything on his own. Then why are they glorifying Yeshua here and not the Father or at least saying to the glory of the Father? Surely it will be to the glory of the Father, for he that honours the Son as they honour the Father to that degree they also honour the Father.
If Yeshua was just a puppet on a string who the Father worked through, then there would be no need for this glorious charade of honour and worship to Yeshua, would there?
GB. BTW, even his eyes are the 7 Spirits of God. Incredible that a mere mans eyes are the seven Spirits of God wouldn't you say?
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