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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,04:44) Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,04:10) Ha! Ha! wonderful points my brother Gene. Let WJ answer them with due care.
GMYou jumped the gun my friend!
GMBy the way, you should start looking closer at the scriptures before you jump on the bandwagon with GB.
Hi brother WJ, I do see the scriptures for me it is infering same as already quoted by Gene. I see that God the Father is different from the Son who is the Lamb that was slain. I do believe that by honouring the Son we honour the Father. But doesn't make Son and Father same being. This is the arguement put forth by Gene.
Please think over
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,04:57) Hi brother WJ, I do see the scriptures for me it is infering same as already quoted by Gene. I see that God the Father is different from the Son who is the Lamb that was slain. I do believe that by honouring the Son we honour the Father. But doesn't make Son and Father same being. This is the arguement put forth by Gene.
Please think over
Adam
GMThe point is GB implied Yeshua was not in the throne with God the Father.
Think about it. Why is only Yeshua in the throne with the Father if he is simply like us in every way.
No one else can, or ever will share this place.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,04:36) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2008,03:33) WJ…..it says we may profess Jesus as Lord (TO THE GLORY OF GOD) never does it say we profess Jesus as God the Father does it. Jesus Said the Father was (GREATER) then Him. They are not one and the same Being then. When the Lamb went and took the scroll from the one who sat on the throne it was not Himself siting on that throne was it, but Gd the Father. IMO………gene
Hi GBInteresting you should say that.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
Imagine that, Yeshua is standing in the midst of the throne and the Father is sitting.And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Three points here GB.
1. Why didn’t the 24 elders fall down before the Father and give him the glory?
2. Do the 24 elders say, “thou art worthy to the Glory of the Father”?
3. Why didn’t the 24 elders say, “The Father hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation”?
Why didn’t they give the Father credit here? After all you say Yeshua didn’t do anything on his own. Then why are they glorifying Yeshua here and not the Father or at least saying to the glory of the Father? Surely it will be to the glory of the Father, for he that honours the Son as they honour the Father to that degree they also honour the Father.
If Yeshua was just a puppet on a string who the Father worked through, then there would be no need for this glorious charade of honour and worship to Yeshua, would there?
GB. BTW, even his eyes are the 7 Spirits of God. Incredible that a mere mans eyes are the seven Spirits of God wouldn't you say?
Hi WJ,You said, “Imagine that, Yeshua is standing in the midst of the throne and the Father is sitting.”
At this point Jesus has ascended to be at the right hand of God. Why is it hard to imagine Him standing while God is sitting?
You said to Gene, “Three points here GB.
1. Why didn’t the 24 elders fall down before the Father and give him the glory?
2. Do the 24 elders say, “thou art worthy to the Glory of the Father”?
3. Why didn’t the 24 elders say, “The Father hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation”?
Just imagine that you were one of the 24 elders standing in the throne room with God.
For an eternity you have seen God holding this scroll, but no one was worthy of taking it out of His hand.
Now one day you finally see someone walk up to God, and God hands him this scroll.
Would you not possibly be so struck with awe of this person that you may fall down exclaiming, you are worthy?
You are worthy to take the book and open the seals. After all, no one else up until this point had ever been worthy.Tim
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,05:16) Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,04:57) Hi brother WJ, I do see the scriptures for me it is infering same as already quoted by Gene. I see that God the Father is different from the Son who is the Lamb that was slain. I do believe that by honouring the Son we honour the Father. But doesn't make Son and Father same being. This is the arguement put forth by Gene.
Please think over
Adam
GMThe point is GB implied Yeshua was not in the throne with God the Father.
Think about it. Why is only Yeshua in the throne with the Father if he is simply like us in every way.
No one else can, or ever will share this place.
Hi WJ,I think that you missunderstood what Gene said.
He did not imply that Jesus was not in the throne room with God.
He in fact said, “When the Lamb went and took the scroll from the one who sat on the throne it was not Himself siting on that throne was it, but Gd the Father.”In other words when Jesus took the scroll from God it was not Jesus taking the scroll from Jesus, it was Jesus taking the scroll from God. He was making the point that they were different individuals.
Tim
Tim
I think you are missing the point.
Yeshua is in the thone with the Father, not just in the throne room like the elders!
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,06:29) Tim I think you are missing the point.
Yeshua is in the thone with the Father, not just in the throne room like the elders!
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
HI WJ,The lamb was in the midst of the elders.
Were the elders also in the throne and not just in the throne room?Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2008,07:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,06:29) Tim I think you are missing the point.
Yeshua is in the thone with the Father, not just in the throne room like the elders!
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
HI WJ,The lamb was in the midst of the elders.
Were the elders also in the throne and not just in the throne room?Tim
TimSo you would just white out “in the midst of the throne”?
Later in the chapter it is obvious who is in the throne and being worshipped.
Yeshua says earlier…
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Did Yeshua who is the King of his Kingdom and who has all authority and power get off the throne to open the book?
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2008,06:04)
Hi WJ,Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,04:36)
Imagine that, Yeshua is standing in the midst of the throne and the Father is sitting.”Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2008,06:04)
At this point Jesus has ascended to be at the right hand of God. Why is it hard to imagine Him standing while God is sitting?
Hi TimIt isn’t, that wasn’t my point. For Yeshua is also sitting in the throne at the right hand of the Father. Where is the Fathers right hand? It is in the throne, so Yeshua is sitting at his right side. Not above him, nor beneath him, nor in his hand, or in his lap but at his right hand or side. While he is standing now in the throne he is being worshipped and honored in the Fathers presence.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
This scripture was written before Rev 5. And since Yeshua is the King of his Kingdom and all authority and power is in his hands, it stands to reason he didn’t get off the throne to open the book.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,04:36)
“Three points here GB.1. Why didn’t the 24 elders fall down before the Father and give him the glory?
2. Do the 24 elders say, “thou art worthy to the Glory of the Father”?
3. Why didn’t the 24 elders say, “The Father hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation”?
Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2008,06:04)
Just imagine that you were one of the 24 elders standing in the throne room with God.
For an eternity you have seen God holding this scroll, but no one was worthy of taking it out of His hand. Now one day you finally see someone walk up to God, and God hands him this scroll.
Would you not possibly be so struck with awe of this person that you may fall down exclaiming, you are worthy?
You are worthy to take the book and open the seals. After all, no one else up until this point had ever been worthy. Tim
I doubt that they were there for an eternity, but never the less I think that they were astonished and amazed that Yeshua left his place of Glory and has now returned as the Lamb that was slain to redeem them by his blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And had made them unto their God kings and priests: and that they should reign on the earth. They are claiming Yeshua did this! True or not?
But the Arians would take this Honour and Glory from Yeshua by not understanding his relationship with the Father. He was “one” with the Father in every sense. Not that it was simply the Father filling a man with his Spirit and using him like a puppet.
But in fact the relationship of the Father and Son is Oneness in everyway. What Yeshua saw the Father do he also did. Jn 5:17-23
This Oneness Yeshua shared with the Father as the Word that was with God and was God is the same God that came in the flesh.
And we beheld his Glory.
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Jn 1:18
Yes I would stand at awe at a being whose eyes are the seven Spirits of God, and I would be worshipping him like they did in the later verses of this chapter.
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Rev 5:12, 13
Can you make a distinction in these verses between the worship of the Father and Yeshua?
Again, the point being Tim, if Yeshua was just a puppet on a string who the Father worked through, then there would be no need for this glorious charade of honour and worship to Yeshua, would there? Why is not all the Glory and praise and worship going to the Father? For the Glory isn’t going to a mere man. For mere men do not have the Seven Spirits of God for eyes.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2008,06:49) Hi WJ,
So the Lamb is WITH GOD?Not the God he is with then.
NHNo Yeshua is not the Father.
He is the Word that was with God and was God in Jn 1:1.
The same God that came in the flesh.
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. Jn 1:18
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,07:39) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2008,07:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,06:29) Tim I think you are missing the point.
Yeshua is in the thone with the Father, not just in the throne room like the elders!
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
HI WJ,The lamb was in the midst of the elders.
Were the elders also in the throne and not just in the throne room?Tim
TimSo you would just white out “in the midst of the throne”?
Later in the chapter it is obvious who is in the throne and being worshipped.
Yeshua says earlier…
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Did Yeshua who is the King of his Kingdom and who has all authority and power get off the throne to open the book?
Hi WJ,
Don't change the context by quoting another verse. Do you think everybody in the Throne hall sitting on the Father's throne?
If you don't understand the simple difference between the Father and Son you can never get the real knowledge of God.
Trinity makes God mystified and complicated which is unnecessary to understand the God of the Bible.
Please think over
AdamTo All did not Jesus say the Father was greater then Him, Why does Jesus at the end of His rule on earth turn over everything to God the Father and become subject to Him then , if He is equal to him He would never do that.Jesus Plainly said it was the Father in Him that was doing the works. You know if we would all try to amass all the Scriptures that deal with our subjects them maybe we could all come to a accurate understanding, But most of the time we post only out side of the issues.
peace …..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,15:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,07:39) Quote (TimothyVI @ June 26 2008,07:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 26 2008,06:29) Tim I think you are missing the point.
Yeshua is in the thone with the Father, not just in the throne room like the elders!
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
HI WJ,The lamb was in the midst of the elders.
Were the elders also in the throne and not just in the throne room?Tim
TimSo you would just white out “in the midst of the throne”?
Later in the chapter it is obvious who is in the throne and being worshipped.
Yeshua says earlier…
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Did Yeshua who is the King of his Kingdom and who has all authority and power get off the throne to open the book?
Hi WJ,
Don't change the context by quoting another verse. Do you think everybody in the Throne hall sitting on the Father's throne?
If you don't understand the simple difference between the Father and Son you can never get the real knowledge of God.
Trinity makes God mystified and complicated which is unnecessary to understand the God of the Bible.
Please think over
Adam
GmI am not changing the context.
Here I will break it down for you.
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne (which is in the midst of) the four beasts, and (in the midst of the elders), **stood a Lamb** as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev 5:6, 7
So the Lamb stood in the midst of the throne which was in the midst of the four beast and the elders.
We do know that Yeshua was sitting in the throne according to Rev 3:21.
So would you also blot out the words “in the midst of the throne?
Comparing scripture with scripture is not changing context.
This is how so many create all these false doctrines, because they do not take all scriptures into consideration and let the scritpures teach them.
Blessings WJ
Ok brother I will quote another verse where in Jesus was standing at the right hand of God in Acts 7:55-56
55 “But he, filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”Do you think Jesus standing as the lamb in Rev 5 is wrong? What do you want say from that?
We are discussing an issue of believing two different beings ; One is One and only God Himself and the other is Jesus the Son of that One God.
What is so difficult in understanding this?
Please think over
AdamQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 26 2008,17:21) To All did not Jesus say the Father was greater then Him, Why does Jesus at the end of His rule on earth turn over everything to God the Father and become subject to Him then , if He is equal to him He would never do that.Jesus Plainly said it was the Father in Him that was doing the works. You know if we would all try to amass all the Scriptures that deal with our subjects them maybe we could all come to a accurate understanding, But most of the time we post only out side of the issues. peace …..gene
GBNo offence, but this is such a weak argument against the Trinitarian view.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. Jn 13:16
Tell me, is the servant less man than his Lord?
Just as the President of the US is greater than you and I yet he is no more “man” than you and I.
You are just as much “man” as your biological Father is.
Yeshua made this statement after Phil 2, when he was rich and became poor for us by taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being found in fashion as a man Humbled himself even to the death of the cross.
Yeshua made this statement in regards to rank and position with the Father. However, now he has all power and authority in heaven and earth and is seated at the right hand of the Father, not beneath him, nor above him, nor in his hand, nor in his lap.
All things are upheld by the Word of his, Yeshua's power (Heb 1:3) and by him all things consist. Col 1:17
No man can come to the Father in anyway but by and through him.
So again the Trinitarian realizes in rank the Father is first, then the Son and then the Holy Spirit.
And yes someday Yeshua will give the kingdom back to the Father when he shall put down all rule and all authority. For Yeshua must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet.
Something that the Arians fail to look at here is this…
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.. 1 Cor 15:28
The implication here is at the moment even Yeshua is not subject to the Father, why because all authority and power is in his hands. He truly is the God of this age and not satan as some would say.
The Father has committed all judgment to the Son.
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Jn 5:21, 22
These scriptures show Yeshua is able to give life and judge whom he will. WOW!
Then Yeshua has the nerve to say…
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Jn 5:23
So in 1 Cor 15 when the end comes there will be a shift of the authority and power which Yeshua has back to the Father so that God may be all in all. In other words Yeshua's role as mediator is finished.
But does this mean that Yeshua nature has changed,, or that he will no longer rule in his Kingdom?
Of the increase of his Kingdom there shall be no end.
What we see is the Father and the Lamb sitting in the throne being worshipped and the Spirit (or the seven spirits of God, Yeshua's eyes) proceeds from the Father and Yeshua to all of creation, which was made by and through him and for his pleasure.
Yeshua who is the “image of the invisible God”, has not nor ever will change in nature. For God cannot change!
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.. Jn 1:18
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 Jn 5:20
Isa 1:18 does and excellent job in answering t8 on the subject of 1 Cor 15:24-28…Click here.
Blessings WJ
Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,17:49) Ok brother I will quote another verse where in Jesus was standing at the right hand of God in Acts 7:55-56 55 “But he, filled with the holy Spirit, looked up intently to heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,
56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”Do you think Jesus standing as the lamb in Rev 5 is wrong? What do you want say from that?
We are discussing an issue of believing two different beings ; One is One and only God Himself and the other is Jesus the Son of that One God.
What is so difficult in understanding this?
Please think over
Adam
GMPlease read my post again. For obviously you do not get my point.
The issue is about Rev 5:6,7 speaking of the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne and one who sits in the throne
Yes brother I have clearly read your post. I am not able to get what is that you want to convey from that?
I see clearly see the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing along with 24 elders infront of the throne. Do you want to say the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing are one and the same being?Quote (gollamudi @ June 26 2008,18:33) Yes brother I have clearly read your post. I am not able to get what is that you want to convey from that?
I see clearly see the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing along with 24 elders infront of the throne. Do you want to say the One sitting on the throne and the Lamb standing are one and the same being?
GMNever mind!
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