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Hi WJ,
Birth relates to the world.
Christ was begotten of God, then later born of MaryPs 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.1Jn5
1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:45) Hi WJ, So back to the question.
Was Jesus conceived using the same words for the conception of John the baptist ?What does this mean? Can you explain please?
Quote Christ was not a man in heaven but conceived of Mary to be a son of Man. Yes, So what was he before he was concieved as a Son of Man?
Then give me the scripture that supports it…
Hi WJ,
He was the monogenes Son who was sent into the world.1 John 4:9
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,04:49) Hi Mrs,
I think it is a language issue but you ALWAYS seem to get the wrong idea from my posts here.
When I ask questions it is not because I believe the obvious answer but because I do not.
It is to show the false conclusions that are reached by following such a line of thinking.
Maybe it is a language bearer. But you do not make yourself clear at times what you beliefs are, and I just respond to that. Sorry I misunderstood. But I like to know why you put it in that way, rather then coming right out what your believes are? English is hard enough as it is. No offence intended.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hello all, here is the scripture.
I corinthians chap 2 vrs 10-11 (niv)
10) but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.Hebrews Chap 4 vrs 12) For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
The scripture clearly says that there is a differnce in the pneuma and the psyche (greek translations for spirit/soul) I believe the word referred to in the niv (logos), is the biblical words of the scripture we have today. So the aurthor of hebrews ( possibly paul) shows clearly that there is a difference in function between the spirit and soul. In the same way that there is a difference between what your joints do for your body and what your marrow does for your body. notice he used two physical things that are part of the same body to highlight his point. So unless I am missing something or missenterpreting the scriptures here there is a distinct difference in the primary funtion of the soul and spirit.
Moving from that precept, that there is a difference, what is that difference? The author says that the word will make that clear.(a double edged sword could cut and seperate the joints and marrow very well. The dissection would visually show that they are two very different things even though they are housed in the same body. You cannot do without either one even though they have different roles in the overall scheme of things.
Then we look in the word to find that difference, because we are clearly told that it is there, and we arrive at corinthians.(written by paul)
here we find that kai/houtos (greek for in the same way) that the Spirit searches the deep truths of God so also does our spirit search the deep truths of ourselves. [We are not talking about the title God here but we are talking about YWHW.]
We know from hebrews that our soul and spirit are part of us like our joints and marrow are but they are different in function. Now we are told in corinthians that the Holy Spirit functions in the same way with the Father and searches the deep truths of YWHW. The author is giving a clear physical example using what we know of our soul/spirit to describe a heavenly relationship between the Father and His Holy Spirit.( Remember: in blasphemies against the Son or the Father, they will be forgiven but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is a one way ticket to hell.) Puts the Holy Spirit on a little of a pedestal doesn't it??? but again not I say this but the scriptures. I will stop here because I do not want to start off on different avenues before we share about these scriptures.
God bless you brothers and sistersNH
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52) Hi WJ,
Birth relates to the world.Is there a scripture for this?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52)
Christ was begotten of God, then later born of Mary
Where is the scripture for this? The word for begotten means “Born”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52) Ps 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.What day was he begotten or born?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52) 1Jn5
1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
NHWhen was he born a child?
Hi CW,
So if the Spirit of God is to God what our spirits are to us
then that Spirit of God is not another person
just as our spirit is not another person.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2008,07:08) NH Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52) Hi WJ,
Birth relates to the world.Is there a scripture for this?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52)
Christ was begotten of God, then later born of Mary
Where is the scripture for this? The word for begotten means “Born”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52) Ps 2
7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.What day was he begotten or born?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,06:52) 1Jn5
1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
NHWhen was he born a child?
Hi WJ,
Is there any need for birth in heaven?
Were angels born of other angels?Hi WJ,
Looking at begotten in Ps 2
“Number 3205
Transliteration:
yalad {yaw-lad'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
867
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
beget 201, bare 110, born 79, bring forth 25, bear 23, travail 16, midwife 10, child 8, delivered 5, borne 3, birth 2, labour 2, brought up 2, misc 12Total: 498
Definition:
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
(Qal)
to bear, bring forth
of child birth
of distress (simile)
of wicked (behaviour)
to beget
(Niphal) to be born
(Piel)
to cause or help to bring forth
to assist or tend as a midwife
midwife (participle)
(Pual) to be born
(Hiphil)
to beget (a child)
to bear (fig. – of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
(Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
(Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigree)Was God saying that today a son was born to Him BY MARY in this verse?
Hello Nick, I believe that is exactly what these as well as other scriptures are saying. According to a triune belief, this is only two parts of the whole. Before we move on however, I believe they are necessary for our brother martian, because it starts to answer as to the attributes of the character of God. For how can the scripture contradict the attributes or character of God??? The only way this could be so was if I am missenterpreting them. If so I am humbly waiting to be enlightened/corrected for I am just simply writing what I believe them to be saying to me. As for how it helps us become more Christlike, how it furthers the plan of God, as well as how it shows Christ as a more viable example for us you would have to read all of Chap 2 showing how God clearly uses the Holy Spirit to communicate with our born again spirit to show us His good pleasing and perfect will. God bless
Hi CW,
God uses HIS own Spirit to teach those who have been reborn of the same Spirit,
also called the Spirit of Christ for those who are in Christ.
Rom8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1Jn2
20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,07:20) Hi WJ,
Looking at begotten in Ps 2
“Number 3205
Transliteration:
yalad {yaw-lad'}
Word Origin:
a primitive root
TWOT:
867
Part of Speech:
verb
Usage in the KJV:
beget 201, bare 110, born 79, bring forth 25, bear 23, travail 16, midwife 10, child 8, delivered 5, borne 3, birth 2, labour 2, brought up 2, misc 12Total: 498
Definition:
to bear, bring forth, beget, gender, travail
(Qal)
to bear, bring forth
of child birth
of distress (simile)
of wicked (behaviour)
to beget
(Niphal) to be born
(Piel)
to cause or help to bring forth
to assist or tend as a midwife
midwife (participle)
(Pual) to be born
(Hiphil)
to beget (a child)
to bear (fig. – of wicked bringing forth iniquity)
(Hophal) day of birth, birthday (infinitive)
(Hithpael) to declare one's birth (pedigree)Was God saying that today a son was born to Him BY MARY in this verse?
NHWhat other birth would the Psalmist be speaking of?
Lk 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.So the Father confirms this here…
Matt 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Then he reafirms it here…
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.When did he become the first begotten? It was when he was brought into the world and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.
Jb 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hi WJ,
His son was SENT INTO THE WORLD.
He BROUGHT HIS SON INTO THE WORLD.So unless God is a midwife, and that is ridiculous, the Son existed prior to his coming into the world.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,08:44) Hi WJ,
His son was SENT INTO THE WORLD.
He BROUGHT HIS SON INTO THE WORLD.So unless God is a midwife, and that is ridiculous, the Son existed prior to his coming into the world.
So according to you the fact that Jesus was sent into the world proves existance before his human birth?
John 17:18
“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.Does that mean we also existed before our human birth?
Quote (chipwhite @ Feb. 25 2008,07:04) Hello all, here is the scripture. I corinthians chap 2 vrs 10-11 (niv)
10) but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.Hebrews Chap 4 vrs 12) For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
The scripture clearly says that there is a differnce in the pneuma and the psyche (greek translations for spirit/soul) I believe the word referred to in the niv (logos), is the biblical words of the scripture we have today. So the aurthor of hebrews ( possibly paul) shows clearly that there is a difference in function between the spirit and soul. In the same way that there is a difference between what your joints do for your body and what your marrow does for your body. notice he used two physical things that are part of the same body to highlight his point. So unless I am missing something or missenterpreting the scriptures here there is a distinct difference in the primary funtion of the soul and spirit.
Moving from that precept, that there is a difference, what is that difference? The author says that the word will make that clear.(a double edged sword could cut and seperate the joints and marrow very well. The dissection would visually show that they are two very different things even though they are housed in the same body. You cannot do without either one even though they have different roles in the overall scheme of things.
Then we look in the word to find that difference, because we are clearly told that it is there, and we arrive at corinthians.(written by paul)
here we find that kai/houtos (greek for in the same way) that the Spirit searches the deep truths of God so also does our spirit search the deep truths of ourselves. [We are not talking about the title God here but we are talking about YWHW.]
We know from hebrews that our soul and spirit are part of us like our joints and marrow are but they are different in function. Now we are told in corinthians that the Holy Spirit functions in the same way with the Father and searches the deep truths of YWHW. The author is giving a clear physical example using what we know of our soul/spirit to describe a heavenly relationship between the Father and His Holy Spirit.( Remember: in blasphemies against the Son or the Father, they will be forgiven but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is a one way ticket to hell.) Puts the Holy Spirit on a little of a pedestal doesn't it??? but again not I say this but the scriptures. I will stop here because I do not want to start off on different avenues before we share about these scriptures.
God bless you brothers and sisters
I understand that you are requesting my comment on this? Could you be a bit more clear as to what you would like me to comment on?Quote Now when you can show me a scripture that shows Yeshua as a man or where is is called a Son of God before his coming in the flesh then you may have a case for your belief. But you have not, therefore you believe that Yeshua was born twice or born again.
WJ;
OK. You believe that Jesus existed as a person before coming to earth, but was not the Son of God. You say that I cannot show you any scriptures that support my belief, but you claim that you can for yours that he existed but not as the Son of God.
First question, If he was a person yet not the Son of God, who was he? Your interpretation of John 1:1 has always been that it is referring to Jesus as the Word who was God. So it you believe that Jesus was the Word before he came to earth, you must conclude he was God prior.
Where does Jesus ever make that claim?
John's grand conclusion in the first chapter of John is that he testified that Jesus was the Son of God, not God.
A man can only have one origin. Christ never says his virgin birth was his beginning. He said that he was sent from the Father above not of his own will but the will of him which sent him and was returning to where he was before. When he said “he” was sent not of his own will he made the inherent declaration that he was the Son of God at the time he was sent because he came not of his own will so he was already distinct from his father.
Your belief that he was the Word which was God and then became the Son of God is inconsistent with what Jesus said. The Word being God cannot have a will that his distinct from God because the Word is God. Luke 8:11 also says that the seed is the Word of God.
Moreover, your belief that Christ did not exist as the son of God prior results in a belief that he will no longer exist as the Son because he is returning to where he was before. Jesus claim he was returning to where he was before with his father so your belief that he did not exist as the Son of God prior contradicts what he taught. That's no inference, that an express statement by Christ.
John the Baptist said he was preferred him because he was before him. It is also written Christ was in the world and the world was made by him and the world knew him not.
Steven
Quote (martian @ Feb. 26 2008,02:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,08:44) Hi WJ,
His son was SENT INTO THE WORLD.
He BROUGHT HIS SON INTO THE WORLD.So unless God is a midwife, and that is ridiculous, the Son existed prior to his coming into the world.
So according to you the fact that Jesus was sent into the world proves existance before his human birth?
John 17:18
“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.Does that mean we also existed before our human birth?
Hi martian,
No.
Our life came through the gift of God to Adam.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2008,04:48) Quote (martian @ Feb. 26 2008,02:49) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,08:44) Hi WJ,
His son was SENT INTO THE WORLD.
He BROUGHT HIS SON INTO THE WORLD.So unless God is a midwife, and that is ridiculous, the Son existed prior to his coming into the world.
So according to you the fact that Jesus was sent into the world proves existance before his human birth?
John 17:18
“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.Does that mean we also existed before our human birth?
Hi martian,
No.
Our life came through the gift of God to Adam.
Not according to Christ own wordHi Martian,
Are you speaking of eternal life?Yes through the Son of God, the one by whom the fountain of life springs up.
Adam did not share this blessing but was made a living spirit by the breath of God and had to go to the well daily for natural life.Ecclesiastes 12
1Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;2While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
3In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
4And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
5Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
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