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Preexistant Christ question?
For those that believe in a Preexistnt Christ.
Can you tell me the form in which Christ appeared in his preexistance? Was He conscious of the universe around Him? Did He have knowledge of who God was and who He was? Did He have fore knowledge of that which He was to do?
Most important, did any of the above things effect his life and ministry after His birth to Mary?Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 23 2008,11:27) Quote Since I have not been “banned” from posting in here yet, just wanted to say: WJ is dogmatic like the rest of you, has a different view of God and Jesus than the rest of you, but still uses the same set of books as the rest of you. He is a Christian, you are Christians. Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously. Besides, WJ was always more understanding of me while I was moving towards unitarianism than most would be. If anyone has reflected what Christ SHOULD be about, I elect WJ.
This is a beautiful day. KJ said he accepted the gospel of John but it was highly symbolic with respect to Christ's pre-existence. WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person. At least KJ has something in common with WJ. Hence, WJ has KJ vote.
mr steveAt this time I do not have a lot of time to post but felt that I needed to respond to you on this.
You said…
Quote
WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person.This is a lie!
Now I chalenge you to find anywhere on this sight in the over three thousand post that I have made where I said that Jesus did not pre-exist his natural birth as a person and that he was not a living being with God from eternity.
I will say it one more time for you, Jesus existed as the Word that was with God and was God before he came in the flesh.
However I do not believe he pre-existed like you do. For Jesus was not a man untill he came in the flesh.
Bearing false witness is breaking the commandment of God and makes you a false accuser of the brethren.
Deut 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.Again, Jesus has always existed with the Father as a person and in the “Form of God”, (Phil 2), for he is and always was the express image of God and his person, substance, essence, (Heb 1:1-3).
Hope this settles the pre-existence problem you have with me.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2008,13:31) Hi WJ,
I saw in another thread that you go to minister's conferences. So you are a trinitarian minister?You also showed us a teaching from scripture about the trinity you think you found
“Question for you?
There was three articles put inside of the Ark of the Covenant.
What about the other two? Since you insist there is something “Special” about the “Ten commandments” over the rest of the Law.
What about the “Manna” and “Aarons Rod that budded”?
How about this?
God was trying to show us the “Trinity”.
God the Father – Ten commandments
God the Son – Manna
God the Spirit – Aarons Rod that budded “
hmmm
Hi WJ,
If you are employed to serve in a trinitarian ministry
it explains your devotion to their creeds.Quote (martian @ Feb. 23 2008,10:41) I acknowledge that the examples I gave were simple ones. Since the subject is the Trinity let me go a bit more detailed. Hebrews see things and view their world through the five senses. They see how things function and describe them in the same terms.
The following verse is often used to prove that Jesus is God.
John 20:28?Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
I am certain that if you are a Trinitarian you would use this verse to prove that Jesus is literally God.
I will deal specifically with the term God. Lord is kurios in the Greek and simply means master or one in authority. It is not a name for God.
The Term God is Theos in Greek and has several meanings. Certainly can mean literally God, but can also mean representative or revealing of God. Jesus was certainly a revealing and representative of God, so how to determine if this verse is saying literally God or not.
Again one must look at the Hebrew concepts of seeing things by their function.
Two more portions of scripture to consider —
John 10
23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
(Jesus answered them by pointing to his works. He pointed to how he functioned)
26″But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27″My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29″My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30″I and the Father are one.”(Now Jesus points out that in this same function he described earlier, He and His father are one.)
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?(here Jesus uses a common debate method among the Rabbis. He quotes a very small portion of the OT and the listeners would understand it as if He quoted the entire text. It is like I were to say Romeo and ? You would understand that to be Romeo and Juliet. (if you know the play and the teachers knew scripture. They would get it. Jesus is quoting Psalms 82)
1God takes His stand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers.
2How long will you judge unjustly
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They do not know nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless you will die like men
And fall like any one of the princes.”
8Arise, O God, judge the earth!
For it is You who possesses all the nations.
(In this Psalm YHWH is rebuking the Elders of Israel for not functioning toward the people as Gods. They were judging unrighteously and mistreating the lost and hungry. Jesus uses this Psalm to point out that He was functioning as a God to the people and they were not. They should have been functioning as Gods because of their position as leaders in Israel.
Neither the leaders of Israel in Psalm 82 or in John 10 were literally God even though YHWH called the former ones God and Jesus called the latter Gods. For this reason what Jesus said was a rebuke. Jesus continues in John 10 to point out that they should see His works/function.
35″If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37″If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
Thomas looked at Jesus and says “My Lord and God”. Thomas, a Hebrew with a Hebrew mindset calls Jesus God, not because He is literally deity, but because He functioned as God. The same way Moses bowed down before the burning bush. God is not literally a bush on fire but, for that moment of time the bush functioned as God.
If a Trinitarian wants to use John 20:28 to prove that Jesus is literally God because Thomas uses those words to describe him, then how much more should we believe that 2 separate groups mentioned in the Bible (Psalm 82 and John 10)are also Gods because both YHWH and Jesus call them so. If they are gong to believe Thomas, who doubted Christ’ resurrection, when he calls someone God, how much more should they believe YHWH and Jesus when they call someone God.
This is not about language, but about the mindset behind the language. Until all of us shed the inundation of Greek philosophical abstract thinking, we will never understand the intent of the Hebrew minds that wrote scripture. The testimony of scripture must be understood by virtue of the mindset of those that are testifying. Those that remain in Greek thinking will never “fully” understand Jesus as our example nor will they understand what it means to follow in His footsteps. They will never completely understand that the plan and purpose of YHWH is to have children like Himself. Children with His character, motives and intentions as proven by how they function as Gods to those around them. For this reason YHWH gave us a complete and perfect example of a human being, Jesus, who functioned as God to his brethren, even unto death on a cross.
martian…… this is the best explanation of the term God applied to someone other then God Himself i have ever read on this site or any other site. I believe if we think about it, it explains and gives meaning to a lot of things concerning the use and inference of the term God.Good post brother…………..gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2008,05:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2008,13:31) Hi WJ,
I saw in another thread that you go to minister's conferences. So you are a trinitarian minister?You also showed us a teaching from scripture about the trinity you think you found
“Question for you?
There was three articles put inside of the Ark of the Covenant.
What about the other two? Since you insist there is something “Special” about the “Ten commandments” over the rest of the Law.
What about the “Manna” and “Aarons Rod that budded”?
How about this?
God was trying to show us the “Trinity”.
God the Father – Ten commandments
God the Son – Manna
God the Spirit – Aarons Rod that budded “
hmmm
Hi WJ,
If you are employed to serve in a trinitarian ministry
it explains your devotion to their creeds.
NHI am employed with no one. I have my own buisness. I own and operate a computer retail sales and service store in NC.
I take no money from any chuch nor any donations. In fact when I preach in other churches I do not take any moneys but return it back to the ministy.
Hope that helps. Your constant critisism of me without cause shows what fruit your doctrine bears.
Nevertheless I say blessings to you anyway, and may his grace be with you.
Hi WJ,
Then it remains a mystery why someone who claims to know Christ preaches a gnostic doctrine like trinity.Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 23 2008,11:27)
Quote
Since I have not been “banned” from posting in here yet, just wanted to say: WJ is dogmatic like the rest of you, has a different view of God and Jesus than the rest of you, but still uses the same set of books as the rest of you. He is a Christian, you are Christians. Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.Besides, WJ was always more understanding of me while I was moving towards unitarianism than most would be. If anyone has reflected what Christ SHOULD be about, I elect WJ.
This is a beautiful day. KJ said he accepted the gospel of John but it was highly symbolic with respect to Christ's pre-existence. WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person. At least KJ has something in common with WJ. Hence, WJ has KJ vote.
mr steve
At this time I do not have a lot of time to post but felt that I needed to respond to you on this.
You said…Quote
WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person.
This is a lie!
Now I chalenge you to find anywhere on this sight in the over three thousand post that I have made where I said that Jesus did not pre-exist his natural birth as a person and that he was not a living being with God from eternity.
I will say it one more time for you, Jesus existed as the Word that was with God and was God before he came in the flesh.
However I do not believe he pre-existed like you do. For Jesus was not a man untill he came in the flesh.
Bearing false witness is breaking the commandment of God and makes you a false accuser of the brethren.
Deut 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.Again, Jesus has always existed with the Father as a person and in the “Form of God”, (Phil 2), for he is and always was the express image of God and his person, substance, essence, (Heb 1:1-3).
Hope this settles the pre-existence problem you have with me.
WJ;
Read what I said again, please. I said you do not believe that Christ was the Son of God prior to coming to earth. You do not believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Son of God prior to coming to earth. You say that Jesus was the Word which was with God and was God prior to coming to earth. So you believe the Jesus was the Word and was God. You do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God, but God. There's no misrepresentation on my part.
Hi WJ,
You said.“Now I chalenge you to find anywhere on this sight in the over three thousand post that I have made where I said that Jesus did not pre-exist his natural birth as a person and that he was not a living being with God from eternity.”
So the one who was with God was not that God.
If he was then GOD is a term that describes a community and not a divine being.
We cannot relate to a community as God.
Scripture does not ask us to either but we are told to Worship the Father,
the God of Jesus [Jn20]Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2008,13:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2008,05:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2008,13:31) Hi WJ,
I saw in another thread that you go to minister's conferences. So you are a trinitarian minister?You also showed us a teaching from scripture about the trinity you think you found
“Question for you?
There was three articles put inside of the Ark of the Covenant.
What about the other two? Since you insist there is something “Special” about the “Ten commandments” over the rest of the Law.
What about the “Manna” and “Aarons Rod that budded”?
How about this?
God was trying to show us the “Trinity”.
God the Father – Ten commandments
God the Son – Manna
God the Spirit – Aarons Rod that budded “
hmmm
Hi WJ,
If you are employed to serve in a trinitarian ministry
it explains your devotion to their creeds.
NHI am employed with no one. I have my own buisness. I own and operate a computer retail sales and service store in NC.
I take no money from any chuch nor any donations. In fact when I preach in other churches I do not take any moneys but return it back to the ministy.
Hope that helps. Your constant critisism of me without cause shows what fruit your doctrine bears.
Nevertheless I say blessings to you anyway, and may his grace be with you.
WJ,Although I have come far from where I was, I do appreciate you as a person who has had much patience in the face of adversity. No matter your view of God, you reflect true character IMHO. Like myself, you have slipped into being judgmental from time to time, but you were quick to recognize it. I appreciate your patience with me as we debated our differences. May the God of the universe continue to use you.
Kevin
Hi WJ,
You say
“Again, Jesus has always existed with the Father as a person and in the “Form of God”,So when the Word existed with the Father in the beginning he was not begotten from the Father?
So the Father was not really then a father?Hello all, thank you Gene for your clarification of the rope in my scripture example. But wether a rope,a camel, or a tunnel the warning is still there to bring the rich man closer to the Father. It is just as appropriated for the wealthy today in 2008 as it was at the time it was quoted. I do like the way martian phrased it “I do not believe they are unsaved but may miss out on some of the blessings.”
Excellent example of love and patience without judgement martian. I am still waiting on a response to I corinthians Chap 2 and the function of the sprirt of man being compared with the function of the Spirit of God. (I am sure we are in agreement here that the labeling of God in this instance is that of YWHW.) Will keep checking back with you T8. P.S. eventhough T8 gave his opinion anyone may respond to this.Quote (t8 @ June 03 2002,19:20) Thankyou for your time effort in talking about the trinity doctrine.
I was going to write about the points, that the last 2 writings have made. But I ended writing the following: (I will however endeavour to look at what has been said discuss the points you have made.I want to pointout that I do not believe the trinity doctrine, but neither am I a Jehovahs Witness and I have never been a Jehovahs Witness. I hold to know man-made creed, nor do I belong to any man-made organisation or institution that makes itself out be church. I am simply a person who was taken out of darkness and shown the light. I am a believer in God, Jesus Christ his Son, and believe that Jesus is the only way to our Father God, as God is too pure to look upon or fellowship with evil. But through his Son we can all be redeemed.
When I first believed in the existance of God and the fact that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, I had a very simple faith. This faith was great enough however to witness miracles on an almost daily basis. But this amazing life nearly came to an end, when I made the classic mistake of listening to the words of Men and believing that I had to accept these words in order to please God. This was of course based on the fear of man. I was told that I had to go to Church every Sunday and I had to believe that God was a trinity. I blindly followed these precepts with little or no proof that such things were so. Eventually I myself even argued with people who questioned such things and I felt that it was my duty to help/correct these people. At that time I became bored with my walk with God, as I seemed to lose touch with God, I felt dead inside again.
While sitting there comtemplating my sitution, the thought crossed my mind that I could give up and return to the world from where I came. But I came to my senses and decided that the problem was me, not God. I reasoned that God created flowers and many beautiful things, and I realised that God is Love and He doesn't change. It was me that had changed. I tried to trace the exact moment that my faith dwindled and I realised that it was when I started listening to mans laws without checking the scriptures or asking God if it was so. I then decided to break free of the religious order around me and seek the one who shone his light on me in the beginning. Once again I felt the presence of God and I realised that I was free again. I vowed never to make that mistake again.
Since then I have questioned all matters that I believed with regards to my faith. To seek truth is to seek Jesus himself. If we do not seek truth then we are not really seeking Christ, but we are looking for a religion or a form of godliness, in which to feel comfortable.
About 10 years ago I believed that God was challenging some of my beliefs that I had accepted blindly from other Christians and also heard in some sermons. One of those doctrines was the trinity. Deep down in my heart I felt that something didn't seen right about it, but to tell you the truth I felt scared to question this doctrine. I felt that everyone would think that I had departed the way. I started asking questions about it, and the response was just as I thought. Everyone I asked that believed said that I shouldn't question such a thing. They showed me some vague scriptures and concluded that God is to big for us to understand. I felt that if I didn't accept what they told me, I would be in for a serious rebuking. So I kept quiet about it for about 10 years. It seemed strange to me that this was the response, as this is contrary to scripture. Paul commended those that checked out everything he said with scripture. I couldn't understand the negative reaction with questioning this doctrine. I thought that the trinity doctrine was especially questionable, considering that it was some three hundred years after the last book in the bible was written. That alone should arouse at least some suspicion in those that are careful in guarding their doctrine.
In the last few years after passing through some big trials in my life, I felt the challenge to look at my doctrine closely. I knew that I had to stop running and face up to some of my beliefs, the biggest one being the trinity doctrine and another one was what we think Church is.
I started with scripture. I went to the Bible Gateway site and typed in the word God and read through quickly the scriptures that were listed. This exercise was interesting, because the thing that stood out was that God is one and there is no other. I then typed in Jesus and there wasn't one scripture that said he was the Most High God. I thought that was rather interesting too, especially considering that the trinity doctrine is suppose to be a pillar of the Christian faith. So for now at least it appeared that the trinity doctrine wasn't an obvious doctrine, rather it was either not taught at all, or it was hidden somewhat, in either the original Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic or perhaps hinted at.
So I decided to immerse myself in the scriptures. I even purchased a Strongs Concordance and other materials to help me understand the meanings of each word. My honest intention was to know the truth, I was, and I am ready now to accept the truth even if it proves me wrong, because I realise that pride defends our own opinions and pride doesn't accept truth when we are wrong. Pride blinds us in ignorance of truth.
Without any bias, I compiled a writing called “Is the trinity doctrine correct”. I discovered much to my surprise, a teaching that has largely been ignored by Christians, but was taught over and over in the scriptures by Jesus and Paul. That teaching is this:
🙂 The Father is the Most High God, Jesus the Word, the Christ, the Messiah came from God, and we (followers/believers) come from Christ.
🙂 God is the Most High God, Jesus is the Image of God and we are the image of Christ.
🙂 God exists inside and outside of creation, Jesus sits on the Fathers Throne and we will sit on Jesus throne.
🙂 We are at the right hand of Christ, Jesus is at the right hand of God, God is at the right hand of no-one.
🙂 The Father is the Gardner, Jesus is the Vine, we are the branches.
🙂 The Father is the Most High God, Jesus is the Mediator and we are Mankind.
🙂 The Most High God our Father, created all things through Jesus the Word, the result is creation. We are part of that creation, but we are made in the image of God, because we are like Jesus.
🙂 The Son speaks on behalf of God, we speak on behalf of Christ.
🙂 The Father is the Almighty God. Jesus is the Mighty God and we are gods.
🙂 Jesus is the only begotten of the Father (born of the Father), we are born of Christ.
🙂 There are many god's but for us there is but one God the Father.
🙂 The word God can refer to the Father, the Son, Man, Satan, Idols and Angels. We must read each scripture in context.
🙂 Jesus called his Father his God and our God. He said this on Earth and in Heaven.
🙂 Jesus tells us that his Father is greater than himself.
🙂 There are things that the Son does not know, but only the Father knows.
🙂 The Son is subject to the Father, and only does what his Father does, and speaks what he hears his Father speaking.
🙂 God gives all things to the Son, Jesus doesn't give it to himself. All good things originate in the Father.I challenge anyone to fit the trinity doctrine with these points. I can also provide you with scriptural reference to all these points, if necessary.
Now I want to point out some things regarding the trinity doctrine.
🙂 The word trinity is not mentioned in the scriptures, nor is it taught by anyone including Jesus and Paul.
🙂 The trinity doctrine states that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all equal and co-eternal. This is contrary to scripture.
🙂 The trini
ty doctrine became official some three hundred years after the last book in the bible was written.
🙂 The trinity doctrine became official upon one man's decision. That person was not Christ, but Constantine a Roman Emperor. He was trying to solve a conflict that needed a final ruling, lest it weaken the empire through division. He had little or no understanding of the subject at hand.
🙂 Those who drew the doctrine did not claim divine inspiration as far as I know.
🙂 The Jews appose the trinity doctrine on the basis that there is only one God as stated many times in the Old Testament.
🙂 The Egyptians worshipped a trinity.
🙂 When Constantine made the trinity doctrine official by order of the Roman Empire, the most influential person promoting the trinity doctrine was Athanasius, who was from Alexandria in Egypt.
🙂 The Babylonians worshipped a trinity too. They also worshipped the Mother of God and money.Is this starting to sound familiar.
Many believe that Christianity destroyed Paganism, but the truth is that Christianity assimilated paganism. Christianity took over many of the Pagan festivals and changed them to Christian ones. In other words a Christian appearance, but a pagan heart. Paganism is idolatory and trinity gods were worshipped in paganism.
The scriptures tell us about a mystery called Babylon. We are told to come out of her in the last days. Babylon comes from Babel. God divided men by language because they said in their hearts “Let us make a name for ourselves”. They also built the tower to save themselves incase God flooded the earth again. Babel is the root of self salvation and pride in ones own name. Babylon worshipped the Mother of God, they worshipped money, false god's and even a trinity. Now tell me the difference between this and many so-called churches today. These churches made a name for themselves even above Christs own name. They tried to build their steeples up to heaven. They need money to function, (buying and selling as apposed to giving and receiving). The biggest one worships the Mother of God and is the chief proponent of the trinity doctrine. So what do you think God did about it. Well he divided men into languages because of Babel, and so he has divided Christianity into many languages, which we commonly call Denominations, which is just a fancy word for division. Divisions are necessary if God wants to lessen mans iniquity, because man is stronger when he is united. God wants to unify the Church, but he doesn't want to join us to the Harlot.
Now, if we look back into history, we can see that the trinity doctrine was the basis of the first creed, which many denominations hold as a pillar of their creeds today. History shows us clearly that creed followed creed and eventually icons and idols were ruled as acceptable for worship, so long as they represented God. This wisdom has revealed itself as idolatry as time has proven. The trinity doctrine also lead some to believe that if Jesus is the Most High God, then Mary must be the Mother of God. This idolatory exist today in so-called modern and civilised times. The worship of Mary lead to worshipping of Saints, and this conduct helped give rise to Islam, as Christianity was seen by Mohammad as a religion that worships Mary and the Saints. This is written in the Koran.
Christianity (the system) is actually part of Babylon or under her influence. Babylon was originally a city that God destroyed because of idolatory, prostitution, self-glorification, self-sufficiency and pride.
Do you think that God is happy when he is likened to a triangle symbol or formula. Is history repeating itself. The trinity doctrine is the foundation of a system that controls and inhibits most believers in the world. It is possible that the trinity doctrine, maybe one of the biggest deceptions in the world today and many fear to question the doctrine, for they feel that they are in danger of becoming a heretic. A heretic is a person who doesn't fit in with the theology of the organised church. Today many people fear becoming a heretic, which is the fear of man rather than the fear of God. People were burnt at the stake for heracy in the past, perhaps this fear originates from that time as an influencing factor to why people do not question this doctrine.
Now I know that I may be in the minority when I say that I do not believe in the trinity doctrine. But minority means nothing because all men are wrong. When Luther sparked the reformation, he was definately in the minority. Perhaps the Church is ready for another reformation, perhaps it is more likely to be a revolution or redefinition.
I leave you for now with the following questions:
🙂 Did the trinity formula come from the spirit of man or the Spirit of God?
🙂 If Jesus came to earth to reveal God, why didn't he teach the trinity.
🙂 Have you really prayed and asked God if the trinty doctrine is His revelation?
🙂 Have you really looked at all the scriptures that say who God is and who Jesus really is?
🙂 If you have challenged the trinity doctrine, was your mind already made-up before you took this challenge?
🙂 If you were morooned on a desert island by yourself, and you had know knowledge of the bible. Would you come to the conclusion that God was a trinity if you read the bible from cover to cover?I look forward to any feedback and I pray that we all come to know the truth whatever that may be, and to all those who may be involved in this discussion, I hope and pray that we may all be teachable.
Greetings t8…..I can relate to your testimony….In my mind I view Jesus as God made man for the purpose of exemplfying the Fathers' plan for man at the end of this age.
The scriptures are repleat (OT)with the Father declaring he is
“The IAM,The El Shaddai and He is That He is”.. this to me supports Genesis…In the beginning There was God…I view the trinity concept to be seriously flawed,(at a risk of being flippant),mathematically.
In the beginning Was God, and the Word was the means by which God communicates with us and the Spirit is the essense of the power of God….Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2008,19:00) Hi WJ,
You say
“Again, Jesus has always existed with the Father as a person and in the “Form of God”,So when the Word existed with the Father in the beginning he was not begotten from the Father?
So the Father was not really then a father?
Nick Why is it so hard to understand what Paul in the Epistel to John is saying?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God, amd the Word was with God.
O.K. So what defines the Word? It was the Spokesperson of God the Father.
John 5:37 ” And the Father Himself, who send Me, has testified of Me. You have neither have heard his Voice at anyrime, nor seen His Form.
This tells us that nobody heard the Faher speak.
So it is always the Word or Spokesman of God.
Rev. 3:14 These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.Here we see that the Witness, who is Jesus was created first. So was He His Son from the Beginning?
Proverb 8:22
The Lord possessed me at the beginn ing of His way, before His works of old.
verse 23 I have been established from everlasting.
From the beginning before there was ever an earth.
verse 24When there was no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountain abounding with water.
It goes on like this til verse 30 telling us that Jesus was there.So therfore I belief that the Son of God who had the tilte God which Paul in Johm shows, was in the Beginning with God.
When you understand that God can be and is a title, there is no Problem.
We know what the Name of the Father is( Yahweh) and we know that His Son's Name is, Jesus Christ.Do we need any other prove that shows us that Jesus Preexsisted. There is on more Scripture in-
Col. 1:15-18 again shows Jesus being there and verse 18 shows us that He had Preeminence in all.
Peace and Love Mrs.Hi Mrs,
I think it is a language issue but you ALWAYS seem to get the wrong idea from my posts here.
When I ask questions it is not because I believe the obvious answer but because I do not.
It is to show the false conclusions that are reached by following such a line of thinking.Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 24 2008,07:53) Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 23 2008,11:27)
Quote
Since I have not been “banned” from posting in here yet, just wanted to say: WJ is dogmatic like the rest of you, has a different view of God and Jesus than the rest of you, but still uses the same set of books as the rest of you. He is a Christian, you are Christians. Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.Besides, WJ was always more understanding of me while I was moving towards unitarianism than most would be. If anyone has reflected what Christ SHOULD be about, I elect WJ.
This is a beautiful day. KJ said he accepted the gospel of John but it was highly symbolic with respect to Christ's pre-existence. WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person. At least KJ has something in common with WJ. Hence, WJ has KJ vote.
mr steve
At this time I do not have a lot of time to post but felt that I needed to respond to you on this.
You said…Quote
WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person.
This is a lie!
Now I chalenge you to find anywhere on this sight in the over three thousand post that I have made where I said that Jesus did not pre-exist his natural birth as a person and that he was not a living being with God from eternity.
I will say it one more time for you, Jesus existed as the Word that was with God and was God before he came in the flesh.
However I do not believe he pre-existed like you do. For Jesus was not a man untill he came in the flesh.
Bearing false witness is breaking the commandment of God and makes you a false accuser of the brethren.
Deut 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.Again, Jesus has always existed with the Father as a person and in the “Form of God”, (Phil 2), for he is and always was the express image of God and his person, substance, essence, (Heb 1:1-3).
Hope this settles the pre-existence problem you have with me.
WJ;
Read what I said again, please. I said you do not believe that Christ was the Son of God prior to coming to earth. You do not believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Son of God prior to coming to earth. You say that Jesus was the Word which was with God and was God prior to coming to earth. So you believe the Jesus was the Word and was God. You do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God, but God. There's no misrepresentation on my part.
mr steveThis is what you said and you continue to say that I do not believe that Jesus pre-existed his coming in the flesh.
You said…
Quote
WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person.You see the highlighted part. That is a lie.
Now when you can show me a scripture that shows Yeshua as a man or where is is called a Son of God before his coming in the flesh then you may have a case for your belief.
But you have not, therefore you believe that Yeshua was born twice or born again.
Yeshua had one natural birth that is called the incarnation. He came as the Word that was with God and was God.
That is scriptural.
Blessings!
Hi WJ,
You say
“Yeshua had one natural birth that is called the incarnation. “So was he conceived of Mary
or was she a surrogate mother?Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 24 2008,07:53) Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Feb. 23 2008,11:27)
Quote
Since I have not been “banned” from posting in here yet, just wanted to say: WJ is dogmatic like the rest of you, has a different view of God and Jesus than the rest of you, but still uses the same set of books as the rest of you. He is a Christian, you are Christians. Maybe if Christians stop all of the “infighting”, non-Christians will take the bible AND you more seriously.Besides, WJ was always more understanding of me while I was moving towards unitarianism than most would be. If anyone has reflected what Christ SHOULD be about, I elect WJ.
This is a beautiful day. KJ said he accepted the gospel of John but it was highly symbolic with respect to Christ's pre-existence. WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person. At least KJ has something in common with WJ. Hence, WJ has KJ vote.
mr steve
At this time I do not have a lot of time to post but felt that I needed to respond to you on this.
You said…Quote
WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God, thereby denying his prior sonship and his existence as a person.
This is a lie!
Now I chalenge you to find anywhere on this sight in the over three thousand post that I have made where I said that Jesus did not pre-exist his natural birth as a person and that he was not a living being with God from eternity.
I will say it one more time for you, Jesus existed as the Word that was with God and was God before he came in the flesh.
However I do not believe he pre-existed like you do. For Jesus was not a man untill he came in the flesh.
Bearing false witness is breaking the commandment of God and makes you a false accuser of the brethren.
Deut 5:20
Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.Again, Jesus has always existed with the Father as a person and in the “Form of God”, (Phil 2), for he is and always was the express image of God and his person, substance, essence, (Heb 1:1-3).
Hope this settles the pre-existence problem you have with me.
WJ;
Read what I said again, please. I said you do not believe that Christ was the Son of God prior to coming to earth. You do not believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Son of God prior to coming to earth. You say that Jesus was the Word which was with God and was God prior to coming to earth. So you believe the Jesus was the Word and was God. You do not believe that he pre-existed as the Son of God, but God. There's no misrepresentation on my part.
mr steveYou said…
Quote
WJ is a proclaimed trinitarian who says the Jesus existed as the Word, which was God,Does this statement disagree with this…
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.1 Jn 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Jn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Or this…
1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Or this…
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.I have scriptures that say Jesus is God, One, with the Father and the Spirit, you have none that says he is not.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 25 2008,05:58) Hi WJ,
You say
“Yeshua had one natural birth that is called the incarnation. “So was he conceived of Mary
or was she a surrogate mother?
NHYou tell me. Do you believe he existed before his natural conception?
If so in what form was he? Phil 2
It would seem to me that if you believe that he was a man or a Son before he came in the flesh, then that would make Mary a surrogate mother.
It would also mean that you believe Yeshua was born a Son way back in time and then was born again as a Son of Mary.
If he was born way back in time as a Son, who was his mother? Wisdom?
All wisdom is in him and comes from him.Sons are born or created. There is no scripture that says Yeshua had a beginning, only unambiguous inferences of such.
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and “without him was not any thing made that was made”.Hi WJ,
So back to the question.
Was Jesus conceived using the same words for the conception of John the baptist ?Christ was not a man in heaven but conceived of Mary to be a son of Man.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 24 2008,14:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 23 2008,13:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2008,05:15) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2008,13:31) Hi WJ,
I saw in another thread that you go to minister's conferences. So you are a trinitarian minister?You also showed us a teaching from scripture about the trinity you think you found
“Question for you?
There was three articles put inside of the Ark of the Covenant.
What about the other two? Since you insist there is something “Special” about the “Ten commandments” over the rest of the Law.
What about the “Manna” and “Aarons Rod that budded”?
How about this?
God was trying to show us the “Trinity”.
God the Father – Ten commandments
God the Son – Manna
God the Spirit – Aarons Rod that budded “
hmmm
Hi WJ,
If you are employed to serve in a trinitarian ministry
it explains your devotion to their creeds.
NHI am employed with no one. I have my own buisness. I own and operate a computer retail sales and service store in NC.
I take no money from any chuch nor any donations. In fact when I preach in other churches I do not take any moneys but return it back to the ministy.
Hope that helps. Your constant critisism of me without cause shows what fruit your doctrine bears.
Nevertheless I say blessings to you anyway, and may his grace be with you.
WJ,Although I have come far from where I was, I do appreciate you as a person who has had much patience in the face of adversity. No matter your view of God, you reflect true character IMHO. Like myself, you have slipped into being judgmental from time to time, but you were quick to recognize it. I appreciate your patience with me as we debated our differences. May the God of the universe continue to use you.
Kevin
KejonnThanks for the kind words.
I wish you the best also in your endevours to find the truth.
Thanks for challenging me and pushing me to study even harder.
Blessing to you. I pray that God will show himself real to you in a new and fresh way.
You have a very strong character and you are very intelligent.
I believe God can and will use you greatly.
Keith
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