The Trinity Doctrine

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
You say and quote
“When did he become the first begotten? It was when he was brought into the world and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

Jb 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten [3439] of the Father, full of grace and truth.”

Not a good quote as ONLY BEGOTTEN does not mean born

Number 3439
Transliteration:
monogenes {mon-og-en-ace'}
Word Origin:
from 3441 and 1096
TDNT:
4:737,606
Part of Speech:
adjective
Usage in the KJV:
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1

Total: 9
Definition:
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2008,05:38)

Hi Martian, Are you speaking of eternal life? Yes through the Son of God, the one by whom the fountain of life springs up. Adam did not share this blessing but was made a living spirit by the breath of God and had to go to the well daily for natural life. Ecclesiastes 12 1Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; 2While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain: 3In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened, 4And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low; 5Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

bable bable

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Can you clarify as your response was not functional.

[chipwhite]

Hello martian, You mentioned earlier:
“If I understand you post correctly you compare the Body Soul and Spirit of man to the Trinity. The analogy falls completely apart when you consider that the primary tennant of the Trinity is that ther are three “Persons” of the Trinity. “(Three parts but one God “hear o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is One”)” Each with their own personality.
The Body soul and spirit comprise one person.”(So do the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost imho)”
No part of that person can be seperate from the other as an animated seperate intity.”(not true, because we are now perishable “one part of us will not make it to be imperishable.” What we are now is not what we will be. Likewise what Christ was here on earth is not what He is now that he has been raised imperishable. On earth he was every bit the Son of God. Literally he was born of the Holy Spirit and Mary even athiestic bioligists would say that would make God “Mary'z baby daddy.” ha ha)”
Beyond all of that there is always the question of function and purpose.(It is a building process step by step you cannot describe it in a couple of lines. However it is very important or it would not be in there.)”
God does not give teaching that in itself is idle philosophy and intelectual data. ( I agree, everything in the scripture is important, we now see but a poor reflection in the mirror how great the day when we will fully know as we are fully known.)
You said,” that you are not sure what to respond to.” I say,”that the response desired is to know rather or not you believe that the Holy Spirit and the Father are One If not tell me there relationship to each other then I will go further.”

[NickHassan]

Hi cw,
At best your human analogy is another attempt to justify what men have added to scripture as far as the understanding of our God is concerned. Men should not offer their help as God does not need it and gets offended at our arrogant attempts to go beyond what He has given us.

[Mr. Steve]

Christ is also referred to the first begotten from dead, but that doesn't mean he wasn't the Son of God before the resurrection. Rev. 1:5

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
Did you think Adam was given eternal life?
If so we did not need a second Adam.
That would have been dysfunctional

[chipwhite]

Hello Nick, this ones for you
again I point back to the post, I did not write corinthians or hebrew. I simply did what I am told to do and studied the scriptures to show myself a workman approved. In case we are not on the same page “the scriptures are God breathed useful for teaching, correcting, and rebuking (when necessary)” Tell me which part of my quote that I added to the scriptures on or twisted so that I may learn/repent and not do it again.
“I do not think you can” that is why you did not comment on the content of what I had said. You just simply throw out a barb and move on “(it seems to be your style in this forum.)” Never the less if I am in error on my enterpretation of first corinthians, or hebrews please enlighten me as to my missunderstanding. If you do not dissagree with what I have said then I will continue to move foward (every staircase is a step by step process. Spiritual truths expressed in spiritual words are also a precept upon precept process) So lets walk through the scriptures only nick not looking ahead for the counterpoint but looking at the scriptures quoted only and see what they are saying and where they are leading.
So again I say “look at the scripture nick” I corinthians chap 2 vrs 10-11 and hebrews chap 4 vrs 12 and tell me what they mean to you if what you believe is different from what I am saying.You guys say you wish to hear/understand why a trinitarian/triune believer thinks the way they do and yet you listen to nothing they say and tell them what they should think. Were it me and I were on the other side I would welcome a point by point disscussion (knowing that I am right) to have the oppourtunity to see exactly where the believer went astray.
I would also feel it my duty to patiently show that believer that error and pray earnestly that the Spirit enlighten the believer as to what he or she would need to see at that time.
God may have raised you up for such a time as this.(who knows???) So lets stick to the scriptures used and if there is something that will help clarify things (like gene b did with the eye of the needle/camel thing)then the Spirit will provide ample oppourtunity for us to lead. God bless you Nick Hassan
I patiently await your interpretation. Chip.

[NickHassan]

Hi CW
1Cor 2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Heb 4
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So the Spirit of God in the body of Christ who share the mind of Christ can be given understandings of the plans and intentions of God. God's Spirit is never separate from God in Christ and unites us to Himself. Only in that Spirit, the Spirit that inspired the Word of God, can we grasp the separation between soul and spirit in the 3 part integral being that is man. The spirit of man is lent to man froim God and God knows the heart of every man by that spirit.

Proverbs 20:27
The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man ; it searches out his inmost being.

In the same way, united with God in His Spirit, we can grow to know His heart.

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. So the Father confirms this here… Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Then he reafirms it here… Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. When did he become the first begotten? It was when he was brought into the world and took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

WJ;

How is your interpretation of the origin of Christ inconsistent with scripture?

Jesus said he was sent from the Father God above and would return to where he came from. When he came into the world he said Lo, a body thou hast prepared for me. If you reconcile your scriptures with what Jesus says you will see he came down and inhabited the “holy thing” which was prepared for him. God sends a spirit into every person that is born. Why is it so hard to believe he could send the spirit of Christ his son into the “holy thing” or body that was prepared for him. Indeed, when you read these scriptures that is what occurred.

[martian]

Quote (chipwhite @ Feb. 26 2008,08:59)

Hello martian, You mentioned earlier: “If I understand you post correctly you compare the Body Soul and Spirit of man to the Trinity. The analogy falls completely apart when you consider that the primary tennant of the Trinity is that ther are three “Persons” of the Trinity. “(Three parts but one God “hear o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is One”)” Each with their own personality. The Body soul and spirit comprise one person.”(So do the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost imho)” No part of that person can be seperate from the other as an animated seperate intity.”(not true, because we are now perishable “one part of us will not make it to be imperishable.” What we are now is not what we will be. Likewise what Christ was here on earth is not what He is now that he has been raised imperishable. On earth he was every bit the Son of God. Literally he was born of the Holy Spirit and Mary even athiestic bioligists would say that would make God “Mary'z baby daddy.” ha ha)” Beyond all of that there is always the question of function and purpose.(It is a building process step by step you cannot describe it in a couple of lines. However it is very important or it would not be in there.)” God does not give teaching that in itself is idle philosophy and intelectual data. ( I agree, everything in the scripture is important, we now see but a poor reflection in the mirror how great the day when we will fully know as we are fully known.) You said,” that you are not sure what to respond to.” I say,”that the response desired is to know rather or not you believe that the Holy Spirit and the Father are One  If not tell me there relationship to each other then I will go further.”

It does not say the perishable will be gone. It only says changed. There is nothing about our bodies not going to heaven. Only that they will be changed.
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

AS to your question about the Holy Spirit and the Father being one. You ask amiss from a perspective that “The Holy Spirit” is an entity or person on it’s own. I do not agree with that.
English translations are notorious for writing doctrine into the text when translating. I am not as well versed in Greek as Hebrew so for most of this response I will be dealing from the Hebrew perspective of “Holy Spirit”. I can however read a simple interlinear of the Greek. Westcot and Hort gives good evidence. For example look where “The” Holy Spirit is translated and you will see that the term “The” is in most cases not there in the Greek. It was added to strengthen the idea of a personage of the Holy Spirit. Just a few examples
Mt 1:18 –
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Greek = out of spirit holy

Mt 1:20 –
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Greek = put of spirit is holy

Mr 1:8 –
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Greek = will baptise you to spirit holy

——————————————-
Ac 1:2 –
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Greek = commandment t the Apostles through spirit holy

Ac 1:5 –
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Greek = you but in spirit will be baptized to holy not after many these days

There are many more, check them out.

Now onto your question concerning Holy Spirit and the Father being one. First you must determine what is Holy Spirit and not just assume the historical dogma of the Trinity is true. For that you must define the words. I would assume you agree that “The” Holy Spirit did not change from the Old to the New Testament. I will deal with the two wors from the Hebrew.
“When we use the word holy, as in a holy person, we usually associate this with a righteous or pious person. If we use this concept when interpreting the word holy in the Hebrew Bible then we are misreading the text as this is not the meaning of the Hebrew word qadosh. Qadosh literally means “to be set apart for a special purpose”. A related word, qedesh, is one who is also set apart for a special purpose but not in the same way we think of “holy” but is a male prostitute (Deut 23:17). Israel was qadosh because they were separated by the other nations as servants of God. The furnishings in the tabernacle were qadosh as they were not to be used for anything except for the work in the tabernacle. While we may not think of ourselves as “holy” we are in fact set apart from the world to be God's servants and representatives.” Curtesy of Jeff Benner.
This same termenology is applied in describing Spirit in both Old and New Testaments.

“The Hebrew word ru'ach literally means the wind and is derived from the parent root rach a prescribed path. The word rach is not found in the Biblical text but defined by the various child roots derived from it. The child roots derived from this parent root are arach, rachah and yarach. Arach is a traveler who follows a prescribed path from one place to another. Rachah is a millstone which goes round and round in the sense of following a prescribed path to crush grain into flour. Yarach is the root of yere'ach meaning the moon which follows a prescribed path in the night sky. The child root ru'ach is literally the wind that follows a prescribed path each season. By extension ru'ach means the wind of a man or what is usually translated as spirit. A man's wind is not just a spiritual entity within a man but is understood by the Ancient Hebrews as his character.”
The concept of Character is seen in Luke 1 (speaking of John the Baptist)
80And the child continued to grow and to become strong in spirit,(pneuma Gr.) and he lived in the deserts until the day of his public appearance to Israel.
John grew strong in character.

This same exact definition is carried through into the NT in the Greek word “pneuma” (spirit) meaning wind or breath. It also carried the meaning of character as in the character of God.
The nomadic Hebrews followed the trade winds as their guide on their journey. This is the way in which they identified with God leading them on the journey of life. All of the characteristics that the Trinity attributes to “The Holy Spirit” as the third person of are really only qualities of the character of God. Through God’s character flows His motives and intentions toward and about His creation. When we pray for someone’s needs we are operating within the character of God to ask that God’s motives and intentions would be manefest in that person’s life. This is praying in the Spirit/Character of God.
The term “name”
in Hebrew also means character or reputation. This is also carried out into the NT. The Jews of Christ time recognized that Jesus came in the character of God He displayed the motives and intentions of God for this reason they shouted out the following –
Mark 11:9?Those who went in front and those who followed were shouting:”Hosanna! BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME (character) OF THE LORD;
Many times Christ says he comes in his Father’s name/character. This is why the pharasees hated him. They were shown up by this man displaying the character they were supposed to have in them.
In John 10 Jesus uses a quote from Psalm 82 and rebukes the leaders for not being “Gods” to the people of Israel. They were not displaying the character of God to the people.
Most churches today use the name of Jesus as a magic montra to insure that a prayer is answered. Then lose faith in God because it is not answered. This is not what it means to pray in Jesus’ name. It means to have the same character as Jesus when we pray.
When we pray outside of the charcter of Christ we fulfill this verse –
James 4
3You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.

When we pray within the character of Christ (which is the character of God) we get this.
John 15:16?” You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name/character He may give to you.

God, who is spirit functions in what ever way He chooses to reveal, guide, animate , heal, teach, or correct.
His spirit/breath animated Adam to give him life.
He guided the Hebrews and revealed himself in the pillar of fire and cloud.
He revealed himself in the torch to Abraham.
Herevealed himself to Moses in the burning bush and later to the people of Israel in Moses’ face.
He revealed himself in the shakihna glory in the Temple.
He revealed Himself in the voices and lives of kings, prophets and common peope and even an ass.
Some of the above stopped in the NT because God revealed His most perfect display of His character in the man Jesus Christ.
Jesus breathed on the Disciples and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. Receive the character of God. Act in accordance with God’s motives and intentions. Jesus went on to tell the disciples to immerse the people in the character of God
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
(by the way, Matthew was most likely originally written in Hebrew and not Greek. But that is another thread to discuss.)

First let’s define some of the key words from a Hebrew perspective.

Disciple = Follower
Name = Character trait
Father = He who gives strength to the family.
Son = offspring who is like the father
Holy = Set asside for a special purpose
Spirit = breath/ source of life
Baptize = immerse (Gr)

With these understandings in place look at the verse again.

Go therefore and make followers of all the nations, immersing them in the character traits of the one who gives strength to the family and of his offspring who is like Him and of the special breath which is set asside for the purpose of being the source of continual life.

The “Great Commission” is neither a Trinitarian proof text nor even a complete water baptism verse. Water baptism is only a shadow of the deeper emersion we are to have in the Character of God as shown through His son Jesus.

God established gifts that stem from His character, motives and intentions. Gifts of healing and prophecy and knowledge. He established ministries all through the same spirit.

1 Cor 12
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Certainly “the Holy Spirit” is one with God. Not in some mystical triune personage but by the fact that God is a spirit/breath/wind that reveals and functions in whatever way He pleases to promote and further his plan in creation.
I am a father. I am also a son. I have been a music director a friend, a minister, a truck driver and many other things. I do not need to be a separate person to function as any of these things.
To my children I function as their father.
To my parents I function as a son
To my co-workers as a truck driver
To my church as a minister
To my students as a music director.
To others a friend.
I am not 6 different persons to do this. I am not a separate entity in each of these functions. There is no need to personify each of these functions.
'The Holy Spirit” as written in our English translations is simply the presence of God. His breath functioning in various ways for the furtherance of His kingdom. It is neithera seperate person of God or an entity of it's own. No more then your character is a seperate person then you, yourself.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2008,07:33)

Hi martian, Can you clarify as your response was not functional.

I do not take you too sriously because you have some of the same false premisses as the Trinitarians. Preexistant Christ. inherited sin nature (calvinism)
You keep trying to disprove the Trnity while at the same time hold onto some of the root philosophies of the Trinity.
Calvins total depravity of man theories stem from gnosticism and dualism which would make Christ of a different nature then us to solve the problem of him being of the lower Earthly realm. They believed that only the transedental spiritual realm had merit and the earthly realm could not have anything good come from it. Nothing totally human from conception on could be of worth. The preexistant theory is of the same silliness, although taking some scriptures out of the general context seems to point to a truth there.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Christ was a son of man conceived in Mary.
His origins are another matter and did not impact on his life.

Nonetheless they too are truth as all creation, including the sons of God who rejoiced when the foundations of earth were laid[jb38], came through him.

[NickHassan]

Hi Martian,
So Christ fully partook of our estate.
Jb25
4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.

6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2008,07:00)

Hi Martian, So Christ fully partook of our estate. Jb25 4How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? 5Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. 6How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

AS per usual to prove an unprovable doctrine you take things out of context. Notice the next verses in which Job rebukes Bildad. Then the following chapter Job asserts his righteousness.

1Then Bildad the Shuhite answered,
2″Dominion and awe belong to Him
Who establishes peace in His heights.
3″Is there any number to His troops?
And upon whom does His light not rise?
4″How then can a man be just with God?
Or how can he be clean who is born of woman?
5″If even the moon has no brightness
And the stars are not pure in His sight,
6How much less man, that maggot,
And the son of man, that worm!”
———-
1Then Job responded,
2″What a help you are to the weak!
How you have saved the arm without strength!
3″What counsel you have given to one without wisdom!
What helpful insight you have abundantly provided!
4″To whom have you uttered words?
And whose spirit was expressed through you?
1Then Job continued his discourse and said,
2″As God lives, who has taken away my right,
And the Almighty, who has embittered my soul,
3For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
4My lips certainly will not speak unjustly,
Nor will my tongue mutter deceit.
5″Far be it from me that I should declare you right;
Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
6″I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go.
My heart does not reproach any of my days.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Are you denying the truth of the book of Job?

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
I have never said that the man Jesus Christ had any advantage over any other son of Adam because of his unusual origins.

The differences were that he alone was able to fully satisfy the demands of the OT such that sin was defeated and he was accepted as a clean vessel by God, fit to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Thence onwards all the works he did were solely the result of that anointing so we can follow him.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2008,08:52)

Hi martian, Are you denying the truth of the book of Job?

Are you denying all the NT that states that Jeus was human. OR are you saying that all humans have preexited as sons of God. prior to their birth.

[NickHassan]

Hi martian,
Christ Human? yes.
No we receive the gift of life through the first Adam.

[martian]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2008,12:10)

Hi martian, Christ Human? yes. No we receive the gift of life through the first Adam.

So you are saying that Christ and the rest of humanity ar different?
I know you will say that Christ is completely human. this is the same illogical answer given by those that believe in the dual nature of Christ.

To this point I have seen no one willing to step up and tell me what form did Christ take in His preexistance? Was He conscious and an animated being? Was He aware of what was gong on around him? Did He build memories of that time? What happened to those experiances and memories when He was born of Mary. Did some little green men from Mars wipe His memory?
Yu have yet to tell me what purpose it serves to have Jesus preexist. I suspect it is because you needed to make up something to cover the tracks of your othr mess of original sin theory. One lie covering another.

You banter around the word “function” as a punch line because you have not a clue as to the reality of good teaching. You actually think that all this “knowledge” in your cranium really makes the difference in your walk. Without experiancial understanding and without a living functional gospel you are just a computer bank. God judges by the heart and not the head. To you teaching/doctrine is more of a debate subject then a real working gospel that changes lives. You think that because you have figured out something in your head (right or wrong) that you have somehow attained it. Because of this you miss out.

[Author]

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