The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

Hi W and Is 1.18,
Would you compare the amazing Spirit of God to the spirit of puny man in ability and power?
Why must define an independant nature for the Spirit of God just because of the amazing supernatural abilities that are shown?
Men do not have the right to do such things beyond what is written do they?
It seems very arrogant.

July 3, 2007 at 6:03 am#57697

Is 1:18

Participant

I await Not3's comments.

July 3, 2007 at 7:15 am#57748

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,18:03)

I await Not3's comments.

Hi Isaiah,
Now I see why you mentioned the Holy Spirit thread while we were talking in the Preexistence thread……you had something you wanted me to respond to here!! Sorry, I was just too into the Preexistence thread to leave.

Now it's 12:15 a.m. here and I'm wiped out, to be honest. I could give you a quick answer, but I'd rather wait and respond tomorrow morning over coffee. Is that alright with you?

I have a little study on this passage that you have brought up and so I'll try to find it and share it with you tomorrow.

Thanks for the chat and goodnight one and all!

July 3, 2007 at 8:04 am#57753

Is 1:18

Participant

No worries. Look forward to reading your thoughts.

July 3, 2007 at 8:23 am#57754

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2007,17:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

My hand doesn't serve me, no, it is part of me. If I lose it, I have lose part of me. At any rate, I think the hand analogy falls a long way short of explaining some of the detail we read in Romans 8:26-27. In these verses we see that the Holy Spirit not only is intelligent (the act of intercession requires this), but is also a seperate intellect to the Father. If one party makes intercession to another they must be different persons. We see this even more clearly in light of this statement:

“He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit“

The Holy Spirit has a mind, and His mind is known by “He who searches the hearts” (cf. Revelation 2:23)

I would like to have some comments from Not3 here….

Hi Is 1.18,
Christ is the one whom God gave the Spirit without measure and he is the one who searches the minds of men given that he is the one who knows their hearts and will judge them. He however is rather the one who intercedes for his brothers with God in spiritual communion. That Spirit of God is ever in the will of God being the spirit of God.

ROM 8
27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

IS 59
16And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

REV 2
The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this:
19'I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

20'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.

21'I gave her time to repent, and she (BG)does not want to repent of her immorality.

22'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

23'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Jn21
The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”

MT 16
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

July 3, 2007 at 1:35 pm#57773

Participant

God the Father and his Son the Lord Jesus Christ can both pour out the spirit [Holy Spirit] through and in all. God the Father and God the Son are “one” sharing the same glory, power, authority, rule. Those who make it to heaven will as well.

Ephesians 1 (New International Version)

Ephesians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[c] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
15For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

July 3, 2007 at 6:12 pm#57783

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

You are the one being arrogant.

You try to make “God” into a finger!

The Spirit is God!

July 3, 2007 at 6:34 pm#57786

kenrch

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,06:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

You are the one being arrogant.

You try to make “God” into a finger!

The Spirit is God!

I thought the Spirit was Jesus? Isn't that what you said WJ?

Again if Jesus Is the Holy Spirit then what is the third person?

Aren't you a three in one plus Spirit man? Then you should know? May be Isiah 1:18 Knows? How about it IS?

July 3, 2007 at 7:06 pm#57788

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,06:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

You are the one being arrogant.

You try to make “God” into a finger!

The Spirit is God!

Hi W,
Scripture, not I, shows the Spirit of God is as the finger of God.
Lk11 cf Mt 12

July 3, 2007 at 8:04 pm#57813

Participant

You are saying that the Spirit refers to God the Father's works? And that his works are established through us and in all of his creation?

July 3, 2007 at 8:04 pm#57814

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ July 04 2007,06:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,06:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

You are the one being arrogant.

You try to make “God” into a finger!

The Spirit is God!

I thought the Spirit was Jesus? Isn't that what you said WJ?

Again if Jesus Is the Holy Spirit then what is the third person?

Aren't you a three in one plus Spirit man? Then you should know? May be Isiah 1:18 Knows? How about it IS?

I have already explained this.

Why do you tell lies and say you would not bother me about this anymore.

You should keep your word and go and look for your answer in the Holy Spirit thread.

I am not interested in following your rabbit trails.

July 3, 2007 at 8:13 pm#57816

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,08:04)

Quote (kenrch @ July 04 2007,06:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,06:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

You are the one being arrogant.

You try to make “God” into a finger!

The Spirit is God!

I thought the Spirit was Jesus? Isn't that what you said WJ?

Again if Jesus Is the Holy Spirit then what is the third person?

Aren't you a three in one plus Spirit man? Then you should know? May be Isiah 1:18 Knows? How about it IS?

I have already explained this.

Why do you tell lies and say you would not bother me about this anymore.

You should keep your word and go and look for your answer in the Holy Spirit thread.

I am not interested in following your rabbit trails.

Don't make promises that you can't keep. I understand that your love for God would lead you to defend your statement(s).

July 3, 2007 at 8:58 pm#57833

Participant

Quote (acertainchap @ July 04 2007,08:04)

You are saying that the Spirit refers to God the Father's works? And that his works are established through us and in all of his creation?

Hi ACC,
No.
The Holy Spirit
Is
The Spirit of our God

God at work in creation.

July 3, 2007 at 9:00 pm#57834

Participant

I know that.

July 3, 2007 at 9:14 pm#57841

kenrch

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,08:04)

Quote (kenrch @ July 04 2007,06:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 04 2007,06:12)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2007,17:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,17:37)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 02 2007,22:17)

Hi Is 1.18,
Do your hands serve you?
Can you feed yourself without your hands helping you?
The Spirit is as the finger of God.

Does your finger talk to you?

You are the one being arrogant.

You try to make “God” into a finger!

The Spirit is God!

I thought the Spirit was Jesus? Isn't that what you said WJ?

Again if Jesus Is the Holy Spirit then what is the third person?

Aren't you a three in one plus Spirit man? Then you should know? May be Isiah 1:18 Knows? How about it IS?

I have already explained this.

Why do you tell lies and say you would not bother me about this anymore.

You should keep your word and go and look for your answer in the Holy Spirit thread.

I am not interested in following your rabbit trails.

WJ this is a new one :laugh: you never said Jesus was the Holy Spirit before :laugh:

So that's three persons: Father Son and Holy Spirit plus the Spirit but wait Jesus is NOW the Holy Spirit. So how many Holy Spirits are there NOW?

Are you sure you want to stay in her? Sounds like you are confused. May be you should check back with her to get it straight. :laugh:

July 3, 2007 at 11:04 pm#57855

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 02 2007,19:18)

Not3,
In the Trinity thread you wrote this:

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 30 2007,18:33)

OK, I'll take a stab at this.

1. The heavenly Father is the only God
2. Jesus is the only begotten of the only God
3. The holy spirit of God – is God himself
4. The Father is the only true God

When I read what you wrote about the Holy Spirit this verse came to mind. I wonder if you could comment on it for me.

Romans 8:26-27
26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Does “God” make intercession to Himself?

Hi Isaiah,

Well, I thought I would be posting this over coffee this morning, but instead I'm posting it over a Diet Coke and it's late afternoon……we are preparing for our 4th of July celebration and we have many people coming over tomorrow. I will have to make this shorter than I really wanted. But it's probably for the best, that way you can respond to what I've given and I can change my mind accordingly, and then post again. :laugh:

OK, I've done a little reading about what others think, and this is what I've come up with so far:
1. The Holy Spirit is God, himself.
2. The Holy Spirit is Jesus.
3. The Holy Spirit is the third person of God.
We have three theories so far, I might as well add a fourth, right?

Now, this may be a bit rough as I couldn't find my past study that was really organized. I gathered these verse quickly this afternoon. I hope my train-of-thought will be straight enough for you to follow.

For me, identifying who or what the “Spirit” or “spirit” is in Romans 8 is essential. Is it referring to God (God's spirit); is it referring to Jesus (the spirit of sonship that God sent into our hearts); is it referring to a completely different person altogether (third person of God)?

The first idea I was convinced of until this afternoon, and that is that the “Spirit” in Romans 8 was referring to God himself. It is said in 1 Kings 8:39, 40 that no one knows the hearts of men but God alone. I found many scriptures that agree with this idea that God alone knows our hearts and secrets (Ps. 7:9, Heb. 4:2, Ps. 44:2 and so on).

But then I also read that Jesus searches hearts (1 Cor. 4:5). This was a bit confusing until I came accross Romans 2:16 which tells us that God will judge our secrets THROUGH Jesus Christ. And that Jesus received authority from the Father (Rev. 2:27).

Now we all know that God is spirit, and that the “spirit of God” is WHO God is. The passage that makes this clear to me is:

1 Corinthians 2:10, 11
“…but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? IN THE SAME WAY, no one knows the thoughts of God except the SPIRIT OF GOD.

So we know that the “spirit of God” is God, himself. Just like the “spirit within” us is who we are.

1 Corinthians 2:12

“We have not received the spirit of theworld but rthe Spirit who is FROM GOD, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

verse 14 (emphasis mine)

“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that comes from the *spirit of God*, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

So we have “received a spirit” and without *this* spirit, we cannot accept the things that comes from the *spirit of God* (who is God himself). I hope your following me…..ha…..

What “spirit” could we possible receive so that we can understand the things that come from the “spirit of God”?

I suggest it is the “spirit of Jesus” which is the spirit of sonship.

1 Corinthians 2:16 tells us that we do not have the mind of God (which we learned in a few verses back that no one knows the *thoughts* or mind of a man but his spirit within him – so we do not have the literal “spirit of God”), BUT we have the mind of Christ. In other words……we have the spirit of Christ.

With this theory in mind, let me bring to mind this scripture:
1 John 3:24
“Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”

What spirit did he give us?

James 4:5
“Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit (here lower case) he caused to live in us tends towards envy, but he gives us more grace….”

What spirit lives in us?

MY answer for consideration:

Romans 8:15
“For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by *him* we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.”

Jesus spirit (or mind) testifies with our spirit (or mind) that we are God's children.

Remember that we have the mind of Christ.
We also have the spirit of Christ.

Who intercedes? Jesus. In fact, he lives to intercede for us (Heb. 7:25, Ro. 8:34).

God is spirit. There is only one spirit in that regard. However, as these scriptures demonstrate, there is also a *mind* and *spirit* of Christ that we are given.

With this in mind, please look at this passage:
2 Corinthians 11:4
“For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached , or if you RECEIVE A DIFFERENT SPIRIT from the one you received…..”

Which spirit did we “receive” according to the scriptures? The spirit of sonship sent into our hearts.

What do you think, Isaiah? Others?

July 3, 2007 at 11:37 pm#57864

Participant

Hi not3,
Yes it is only by the power of the Holy Spirit of God given eternally at the Jordan
– [specifically the gift of discernment of spirits and word of knowledge-1Cor12]-
that Christ is empowered to read the hearts of men.

July 4, 2007 at 3:41 am#57929

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2007,11:37)

What do you think, Nick, am I way off base in my assesment of Romans 8? Thanks.

July 4, 2007 at 4:08 am#57933

Participant

Hi not3,
As I see it we, who are reborn into Christ, are one in the Spirit of Christ given to us.
The Spirit of Christ unites the head [Christ]with the body [us] with that Spirit expressed now through us.
We share the gifts and fruits and powers of the Spirit first poured into Christ.
That Spirit manifests both Christ and God now to us.

Where did the Spirit of Christ come from?
The Spirit of God was given to Christ from God at the Jordan.
In Christ the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Christ.
But that Spirit remains in connection with God Who gave it to Christ who gives it to us.
So in Christ we have access to God in that Spirit.

All from God through Christ.

For the sons and daughters of God

All now one with God in Christ.

God is one.
For us
All in God.

July 4, 2007 at 4:14 am#57935