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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,17:40) Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *for he shall not speak of himself*; but *whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
(This scripture is obvious that the Spirit of truth is not the Father, and he does not speak of himself, for the Spirit here is subservient to Jesus!)
Yes, interesting. How do others see this passage? I've always wondered about it. It's one of those passages that you have to align with the restof scripture…..Thanks, WJ!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2007,04:52) Unfortunatly for you K, even if you say there is no third person, “Comforter”, you still have to conclude if Gods Spirit as you say is God and there is only one Spirit then that makes Jesus God.
I would love to see some discussion on this. Thanks.Pardon my jumping in here but it looks like WJ is being ganged up on. Are you debating whether the Holy Spirit is a separate existence/subsistence from the Father and the Son? If so, John 14-16 have always been the clearest to me on this point
John 14:16 -“I will ask the Father, and He will send you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot see because it does not see Him or know Him …” (Clearly the Helper is neither the Father nor the Son.)
John 14:26 -“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (Again, the Holy Spirit is clearly not the Father nor the Son.)
John 15:26 -“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.” (This is painfully clear. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son.)
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ June 06 2007,05:16) Pardon my jumping in here but it looks like WJ is being ganged up on.
WJ can hold his own, believe me. His teaching is sprinkled with the fruit of the Spirit.Quote (Tim2 @ June 06 2007,05:16) John 15:26 -“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.” (This is painfully clear. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son.)
Is it so painfully clear, Tim? I don't think so.God is the only Spirit there is. The Spirit is given of the Father for it is the only Spirit Jesus can give. He can give *it* because he also is filled without measure with the same Spirit.
Nothing is painfully clear except that we are to love one another.
Quote (kenrch @ June 06 2007,02:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 05 2007,17:04) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2007,15:55) The Holy Spirit fills Jesus with Joy. Then Jesus said ” I prasie you FATHER”. Notice He didn't say I praise you Holy Spirit but he did when He reconized the Holy Spirit as the Father.
***********************************************Interesting, indeed
not3If the Holy Spirit is the Father then the Father is subservient to Jesus…
Lk 3:16
John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: *he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire*:
(is this Holy Ghost the Father? If so, the Holy Spirit is subservient to Jesus since Jesus is doing the baptizing!)John 15:
13 Howbeit when he, the *Spirit of truth*, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for *he shall receive of mine*, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that *he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you*.
Joh 16:15 (NOT 15:15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Quote …”All things that the Father hath are mine:” The Father gave everything to the Son is it no wonder that the Holy Spirit will show us, guide us, teach us! Jesus has nothing of Himself. Just as he said in scripture.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I DO NOTHING OF MYSELF; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
IHN&L,
Ken
KenOK and how does that explain the Spirit being subservient to Jesus?
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *for he shall not speak of himself*; but *whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
(This scripture is obvious that the Spirit of truth is not the Father for the Spirit here is subservient to Jesus!)You say…
Quote
The Father gave everything to the Son is it no wonder that the Holy Spirit will show us, guide us, teach us! Jesus has nothing of Himself. Just as he said in scripture.You say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why do you keep calling him the Holy Spirit, why not just call him Father?
And how do you explain “The Father” not speaking of himself and taking from Jesus?
HEHE. Thats 3 for three persons! Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2007,05:59) You say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why do you keep calling him the Holy Spirit, why not just call him Father?
That's a good idea! Can we try that and see if it works? Everywhere you see the holy Spirit – replace it with God or Father. Would it work?Hi W,
The Spirit is the finger of God.
God is ever in heaven and does all His works here by His Spirit which serves Him, as our fingers serve us.
I would not address your finger as you though it is an integral aspect of you, and would need to be respected as you are.Unfortunatly for you K, even if you say there is no third person, “Comforter”, you still have to conclude if Gods Spirit as you say is God and there is only one Spirit then that makes Jesus God.
RED FLAG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DANGER, DANGER…..
If you believe this to be true WJ, and by what you preach,then you yourself are calling yourself a god.
You cannot divide the spirit, we could not be family if you did, we could not unite as one body under the same spirit. Because you claim the spirit is another.
OY VEY !!!!!!!!!!!!
You seperate, then combine. How can that be, we are one body, we serve one Yah, we have one master. They stand together, united. They do not seperate then combine again.
Eph 4:3-6 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2007,06:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2007,05:59) You say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why do you keep calling him the Holy Spirit, why not just call him Father?
That's a good idea! Can we try that and see if it works? Everywhere you see the holy Spirit – replace it with God or Father. Would it work?
No, it wouldn't work. That's what is so painfully clear in the three verses I cited.Actually, it did work on the few I just looked up. I'll try to post them later tonight as I have to go meet a client soon.
Quote (olive @ June 06 2007,01:45) Hey W, It seems there is a thread already prepared to speak of truth and spirit.
You know Wj, I have ask for revelation to give, all weekend. Searched the scriptures.
And the only thing I have is this:
Who is truth?
Who is spirit?Why are we told in John that Yahweh seeks those worshipping in truth and spirit
If the trinity teachings were correct, then this verse leaves them one short. Because it is written he is only seeking two things, truth and spirit.
Will await your response.
much love
OliveJn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father *in spirit and in truth*: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must *worship him in spirit and in truth*.So you think that a simple deduction in these 2 verses proves there is not three persons?
If you look at the context, Jesus is simply trying to explain to the Samaritan woman what “true” worhip is and who the “True” worshippers are.
Jn 4:22 NASB
“You worship *what you do not know; we worship what we know*, for salvation is from the Jews.Jesus is not making a doctrinal statement here that there is only two, The Spirit and Truth, or the Father and the Son.
The true worship is in the Spirit and in truth.
You say…
Quote Who is truth?
Who is spirit?Well God is the Spirit, and since we know the “Spirit is God”, then he also is “truth”.
Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, *the Spirit of truth*, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for *for he shall not speak of himself*; but *whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak*: and he will shew you things to come.
(This scripture is obvious that the Spirit of truth is not the Father nor Jesus for the Spirit here is subservient to Jesus!)Surely you are not saying the Father is exclusively “Spirit” and Jesus is exclusively 'Truth”?
Wouldnt you say they are both “Spirit and Truth”?
Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.It is interesting wouldn’t you say that the Son is also the “Spirit and Truth”!
2 Cor 3:17
Now *the Lord is that Spirit*: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.Jn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, *the truth*, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.So what do we have?
We have the Father who is “Spirit and Truth”.
We have the Son who is “Spirit and Truth”.
And we have the Spirit of Truth (Comforter) who is “Spirit and Truth”.
Please show me how this isn’t so?
Blessings
Quote (olive @ June 06 2007,06:12) Unfortunatly for you K, even if you say there is no third person, “Comforter”, you still have to conclude if Gods Spirit as you say is God and there is only one Spirit then that makes Jesus God. RED FLAG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DANGER, DANGER…..
If you believe this to be true WJ, and by what you preach,then you yourself are calling yourself a god.
You cannot divide the spirit, we could not be family if you did, we could not unite as one body under the same spirit. Because you claim the spirit is another.
OY VEY !!!!!!!!!!!!
You seperate, then combine. How can that be, we are one body, we serve one Yah, we have one master. They stand together, united. They do not seperate then combine again.
Eph 4:3-6 being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
OliveHello!
You say…
Quote
You cannot divide the spirit, we could not be family if you did, we could not unite as one body under the same spirit. Because you claim the spirit is another.Those are not my words they are the words of Jesus.
So Jesus words are not true?
Red flag! !!!DANGER!!!
Just deny the words of the Lord!
Listen again!
Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and *he shall give you another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
(Again, there is 2 persons here, 1. The Father and 2. “another” comforter who the Father will give)Yet One Spirit!
Eph 4:3-6
being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
one body and *one Spirit*, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,How do you explain this Olive?
Quote (Tim2 @ June 06 2007,05:16) Pardon my jumping in here but it looks like WJ is being ganged up on. Are you debating whether the Holy Spirit is a separate existence/subsistence from the Father and the Son? If so, John 14-16 have always been the clearest to me on this point John 14:16 -“I will ask the Father, and He will send you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot see because it does not see Him or know Him …” (Clearly the Helper is neither the Father nor the Son.)
John 14:26 -“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (Again, the Holy Spirit is clearly not the Father nor the Son.)
John 15:26 -“When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me.” (This is painfully clear. The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son.)
Tim
TimAmen!
I appreciate any insight you have!
Blessings!
Quote (Tim2 @ June 06 2007,06:19) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 06 2007,06:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2007,05:59) You say the Holy Spirit is the Father then why do you keep calling him the Holy Spirit, why not just call him Father?
That's a good idea! Can we try that and see if it works? Everywhere you see the holy Spirit – replace it with God or Father. Would it work?
No, it wouldn't work. That's what is so painfully clear in the three verses I cited.
TimTrue!
They learned this magic trick from t8.
It dosnt work in every case to put father where the word God is either!
HiW,
To blaspheme the Spirit is more serious than to blaspheme Christ-Jesus told us.
That is because the Spirit ever proceeds from God.
Christ has proceeded as a lesser Son.This indicates that any equal trinity theory cannot be true.
The Father loves the firstbegotten Son and sent him into the world.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2007,07:06) HiW,
To blaspheme the Spirit is more serious than to blaspheme Christ-Jesus told us.
That is because the Spirit ever proceeds from God.
Christ has proceeded as a lesser Son.This indicates that any equal trinity theory cannot be true.
The Father loves the firstbegotten Son and sent him into the world.
No NH!To blaspheme the Holy Ghost is serious because the Spirit is God, and it is the Spirit which draws all men to Christ!
Without Jesus there is no forgiveness!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 06 2007,06:51)
Wj you ask me to explain this, you are referring to this passage yes?Eph 4:3-6
being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
one body and *one Spirit*, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all, (emphasis WJ)Let's use your trinity method.
one body
one Spirit
one Lord
one faith
one baptism
one God
—————
6now, don't think me strange, but the number six is not one of my favorites.
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