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Hi Tim2,
Why do you need derived creeds?
Is the Word of God not enough?
Is it only equivalent to your traditions?Nick,
The creeds say what the Bible says. You refuse to say what the Bible says, that Jesus is God, so we wrote the creeds to differentiate ourselves from heretics such as yourself.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Do they?
Why do you prefer them to the pure words of truth?
Ps 12
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.Quote (Tim2 @ April 05 2007,22:25) Nick, The creeds say what the Bible says. You refuse to say what the Bible says, that Jesus is God, so we wrote the creeds to differentiate ourselves from heretics such as yourself.
Tim
Hi Tim2,That is a funny statement. A heretic is anyone that disagrees with what another person thinks is orthadox.
So if two people that disagree, each think that their understanding is orthadox, then both are heretics.Kind of a no win situation, isn't it?
Tim
Quote Hi Nick, No, my creed is from the Bible and is based on the words of Jesus, “I am the first and the last.”
See the Alpha and Omega thread for what the Bible does and doesn't say on this.
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 02 2007,17:37) The HOLY SPIRIT (a Person) is endowed with very “personal” characteristics like:
Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.(John 14:26) “for He will teach you all things”.
1 Cor. 2:13,14 He teaches us spiritual things, helping us to discern spiritual things
(1 Cor. 12:11),He makes decisions –deciding who gets what spiritual gift
He has emotions and can be grieved (Eph. 4:30)
Romans 8:26 “The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.(John 16:8) He convicts of sin, of righteousness and judgment
Rev. 22:17
He invites people to “come” (Matt. 12:31, Mark 3:29) He can be sinned and blasphemed against, which can lead to the unpardonable sin
“The Spirit Himself bears witness…. that we are children of God (Romans 8:16
He speaks (Acts 8:29)
teaches (Luke 12:12)
reveals (Luke 2:26)
testifies (Acts 20:23)
searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11)
He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4)
He commands and guides (Acts 8:29)
He declares things to come (John 16:13)In John chapters 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person.
In John 14:16 He calls Him the Comforter (Parakletos), which is a title which could only be held by a person.
CB,I see where you have proven that the Holy Spirit is God. But other than the pronouns HE ETC I see no scripture saying that the Holy Spirit is a separate person.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of *my Spirit* upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
“MY SPIRIT” saith God.
Is your spirit a separate person? We cannot send our spirit to others YET as God and Jesus can.
IHN&L
Ken
Ken,
He's called the Helper. Parakletos. A helper is a person.
What about Acts 13:2? The Spirit calls Himself “I” and “Me.”
And the Spirit has His own initiative. John 16:13.
Ken, you're so close to the Trinitarian faith. Why don't you just admit that you've made some interpretive mistakes, and get on board with the church?
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 21 2007,06:17) Ken, He's called the Helper. Parakletos. A helper is a person.
What about Acts 13:2? The Spirit calls Himself “I” and “Me.”
And the Spirit has His own initiative. John 16:13.
Ken, you're so close to the Trinitarian faith. Why don't you just admit that you've made some interpretive mistakes, and get on board with the church?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
“a helper is a person”
That sounds like inference to me.
Is it oK to use such inference to base doctrines on?The Spirit does not speak of His own initiative.
The prophetic Spirit of Christ has spoken the Words of God.
God has decreed no more will be added and those that added trinity 200 years later were not of that Spirit.
They did not abide in the Words of Christ and showed they were antichrist.
You should not follow them.2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. “
Quote (Tim2 @ April 21 2007,06:17) Ken, He's called the Helper. Parakletos. A helper is a person.
What about Acts 13:2? The Spirit calls Himself “I” and “Me.”
And the Spirit has His own initiative. John 16:13.
Ken, you're so close to the Trinitarian faith. Why don't you just admit that you've made some interpretive mistakes, and get on board with the church?
Tim
Tim2,Which church might that be? Oh I know what I believe is close to the Trinity Doctrine that's why the Trinity doctrine is confusing. We know that Jehovah is not the Father of confusion.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Without your spirit you would not be alive. The spirit is the life. The Holy Spirit is the life of Jehovah, He shares His life with us, that's why we are born again.
Jesus received the Life of God without measure. I believe that's all the confusion about Jesus being God. Jesus is not the Father but He has all the Fullness of the Father being FULL without measure the Spirit Life of Jehovah. That will be impossible for us, but we do receive (right now) some of God's life. When all things will be subject to Him, God will be all in all. How will God be all in all?
How are we His children? Just because He says so with power. I believe we are His children because we accept the Life Giving Spirit of God. How are you your father's son? Because you have part of your father in you. The children of God have part of Jehovah in them. Amen!
Jesus the only begotten Son. Only Jesus has the fullness of the Father. What does that make Jesus? God's Son; is He the Father~NO~ He is completely LIKE the Father being born of of the Father.
The Father and Jesus have the Same Spirit. Two in one.
The Spirit is the Life of God
Jesus is the only begotten of God, full without measure, the very life of God.
God is a Spirit John 4:24.Tim if the Holy Spirit were a separate person why would he be a secret person not having a name? The Trinity doctrine of “the church” states that their are three “EQUAL” persons in the God head.
Some have come along and changed their idea about that and now state that the Father is greater than the Son and I suppose believe that the Son is greater that the Holy Spirit.The reason the Holy Spirit has no name is because the Holy Spirit is part of the Father. The Holy Spirit's name if the Spirit had one would be Jehovah!
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you *from the Father*, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
HE:
G1565
ἐκεῖνος
ekeinos
ek-i'-nos
From G1563; that one (or [neuter] thing); often intensified by the article prefixed: – he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those. See also G3778.The word he could mean anything it, other, THAT ONE.
If the Holy Spirit is a separate person as Jesus then he (it other, that one) must be very low on the totem poll. Actually you show disgrace to God's Spirit by saying he is a third person.
I'm saying the Holy Spirit is part of God. The life of God. You on the other hand are saying he is a nameless person.Come out of her Tim.
IHN&L,
Ken
Kenrch
Quote Tim if the Holy Spirit were a separate person why would he be a secret person not having a name? The Trinity doctrine of “the church” states that their are three “EQUAL” persons in the God head.
Some have come along and changed their idea about that and now state that the Father is greater than the Son and I suppose believe that the Son is greater that the Holy Spirit.The reason the Holy Spirit has no name is because the Holy Spirit is part of the Father. The Holy Spirit's name if the Spirit had one would be Jehovah!
His name is Jehovah!
II Cor 3:17
Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. (NWT)
(Even the Arian's own bible cannot hide the truth)Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.SEE ALSO
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God
Compare
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.With
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Lord
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel
Hi CB,
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
So the Rock of Israel that spoke by David is the Spirit of our God, as is the rock that was with Moses, the Spirit of Christ. So where is a trinity here? The Spirit is ONE
Nick
Quote So the Rock of Israel that spoke by David is the Spirit of our God, as is the rock that was with Moses, the Spirit of Christ. So where is a trinity here? The Spirit is ONE Have a look NH. Here are two Persons of the Godhead identified. This destroys your Arian theory.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
The following identifies the Holy Spirit as the God of Israel.
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel
The following Identifies Christ as the Rock of Israel (God).
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.]1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
So tell me Nick. Is the Father also God?
If He is, then you have got a problem. You have to then concede that there are three deities in the Godhead. Back to the drawing board Nick!
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Nick
Quote Hi Cb,
For us there is only ONE GOD, the Father.
So whom are you following?I'm following The God of Israel (The Holy Spirit), the Rock of Israel (Christ Jehovah) and The Father. Are you following them Nick? Are you?
Look Nick. Here are two Persons of the Godhead identified. This muddles your arian thing.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
The following identifies the Holy Spirit as the God of Israel.
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel
The following Identifies Christ Jehovah as the Rock of Israel (God).
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.]1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
So tell me Nick. Is the Father also God?
Did I hear YES. You have to then concede that there are three divine Persons in the Godhead. Back to the drawing board again Nick! Bye Bye.
Isa 42:20 Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
Hi CB,
You would not need a drawing board to devise your own God
if you listened to the voice in Scripture.
God is one, and has a son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2007,06:25) Hi CB,
You would not need a drawing board to devise your own God
if you listened to the voice in Scripture.
God is one, and has a son.
The voice in Scripture Nick? Where does that come from? Can you show me where in Scripture there is a voice of Scripture mentioned?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2007,06:25) Hi CB,
You would not need a drawing board to devise your own God
if you listened to the voice in Scripture.
God is one, and has a son.
Did it ever occur to you that if God was in fact one solitary “being”, then there would be no need to declare that He is one?I mean how often do you go around telling people that you are one? You don't because it's not necessary.
But God, being Father, Son and Holy Spirit obviously felt the need to inform us that He is one. Scripture points out that God is not a solitary figure in mant ways and forms.
One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!
The Father
2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, *I will dwell in them, and walk in them;* and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Jn 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and **we** will come unto him, and make our abode with him*.This is the Father living in us.
In fact the above verse says both the Father and the Son will come and dwell within us!
The Son
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *Spirit of God dwell in you.* Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Rom 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby *we cry, Abba, Father*.2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that *Jesus Christ is in you*, except ye be reprobates?Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the *Spirit of his Son* into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.2 Cor 3:17
Now the *Lord is that Spirit*: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.And so we see that the Son, Yeshua Messiah, Jesus Christ,
lives in us!The Holy Spirit
Jn 14:6
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;Jn 16:6
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, *I will send him unto you*.Jn 16
13 Howbeit when “he”, the Spirit of truth, is come, “he” will guide you into all truth: for “he” shall not speak of “himself”; but whatsoever “he” shall hear, that shall “he” speak: and “he” will shew you things to come.
14 “He” shall glorify me: for “he” shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Acts 2:4
And they were all *filled with the Holy Ghost*, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.And of course here we see the Comforter living in us and filling us!
So we have the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit living in us by these scriptures.
Can anyone show me how these scriptures say anything else?
Now, since we know that there is *One Spirit* we read…
1 Cor 12:13
For by *one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been *all made to drink into one Spirit.*Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access by *one Spirit* unto the Father.Ehp 4:4
There is one body, and *one Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Then to stay in harmony with the scriptures we conclude that there is…… ONE SPIRIT, THREE PERSONS, and ONE GOD!
The above is confirmed by the following scriptures…
2 Cor 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the *name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost*:
This is a good test for the Unbelievers the Unitarians and the Henotheist and the followers of Arian.
Acoording to the above scriptures, ask yourself…
Does the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit live in you?
Ignatious a desciple of the Beloved John wrote…
*For our God, Jesus Christ*, now that He is with [or in] the Father, is all the more revealed [in his glory]. Christianity is not a thing of silence only, but also of [manifest] greatness.
and
Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that *the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person*, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.
and
Be on your guard, therefore, against such persons. And this will be the case with you if you are not puffed up, and continue in intimate union with *Jesus Christ our God*, and the bishop, and the enactments of the apostles.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.html
Without the whiteout, you have, One Spirit, Three Persons, and One God!!!
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