- This topic has 6,304 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 11 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,22:23) Hi W,
You say
“This scripture does not say God gave the Son eternal life!”
1Cor 15 does.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
NHWhen was he made a quickening spirit? When he was the Word?God who entered the Body that The Father and the Holy Spirit had prepared for him.
Adam was made a living soul by God breathing into his nostrils and he became a living soul!
Jesus on the other hand became a Quickening Spirit when the Word/God entered his body at conception!
He is the Lord from heaven and that Spirit did not die!
And no this is not the Father giving Yeshua the Word/God Eternal life!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,22:47) Hi w,
You say
“His Body, the temple died, and he raised it up. How could he do that if his Spirit was dead?”Ecc12
” 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. “Jesus, the monogenes Son of God agreed to obey God and come into the world to die at the hands of puny men so that God's Spirit in him could have the victory.
Jn 19
” 30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. “Acts 3
“13The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.14But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
He died but was yet alive in the gift of God's Spirit.
1Peter 3
“18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”
He died but his body did not rot and God raised him
Acts 2
' 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
NHYou say…
Quote Where does scripture say that spirits die? Exactly my point!
The Spirit of Jesus the Lord from heaven did not die!
You quote…
Quote 25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Look closely NH. The scriptures are speaking of his Body and his Soul in hell!His body did not see corruption! His body his flesh shall rest in hope!
It was his temple that Jesus spoke of that died!
Death had no power over him, the Eternal Spirit that was with the Father!
Quote Jesus, the monogenes Son of God agreed to obey God and come into the world to die at the hands of puny men so that God's Spirit in him could have the victory.
NHPlease give me a scripture where it says the Monogenes Son was the Monogenes Son before the incarnation, before he was born a Son!
You are the One that always wants to point out speculation and inferrence, so are you practicing what you preach?
Hi W,
Christ died.
Jn 19
'30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
The one who had been given the Spirit of life died but that Spirit did not leave him, only his own spirit.
Jn 18
31Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:32That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?”
You cannot accept the death of the Son of God because you do not believe he is the Son of God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,23:27) Hi W,
Christ died and if he had not been reborn from above would still be dead like any other man.
NHWhere is the scripture that says he was reborn!
Why do you say he has to be like us!
I thought we had to be like him!
He was perfect! He didnt need to be reborn! We do!
He wasnt dead in his sins! We were!
Jn 2:19
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,23:34) Hi W,
Christ died.
Jn 19
'30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
The one who had been given the Spirit of life died but that Spirit did not leave him, only his own spirit.
Jn 18
31Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:32That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?”
You cannot accept the death of the Son of God because you do not believe he is the Son of God.
NHIts no possible for the Word/God to die!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,23:34) Hi W,
Christ died.
Jn 19
'30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
The one who had been given the Spirit of life died but that Spirit did not leave him, only his own spirit.
Jn 18
31Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:32That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?”
You cannot accept the death of the Son of God because you do not believe he is the Son of God.
NHYou can not accept that he is the Lord from heaven the Word/God who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born the “Son Of God”, God in the flesh, because…
Well you decide if you will believe the word or not!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 13 2007,23:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,23:34) Hi W,
Christ died.
Jn 19
'30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.31The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
The one who had been given the Spirit of life died but that Spirit did not leave him, only his own spirit.
Jn 18
31Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:32That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.
33Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?”
You cannot accept the death of the Son of God because you do not believe he is the Son of God.
NHIts no possible for the Word/God to die!
Hi W,
It is impossible for God to die.
But His son did.
Only trinity theory blinds you to this fact.Hi W,
You seem to believe that the Son of Man took on human flesh but when he died it was only the flesh that died.
Is that compatible with the scriptural view of death for men?
When men die is it only the flesh that dies?Jas 2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.The spirit of Jesus left him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,00:43) Hi W,
You seem to believe that the Son of Man took on human flesh but when he died it was only the flesh that died.
Is that compatible with the scriptural view of death for men?
When men die is it only the flesh that dies?Jas 2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.The spirit of Jesus left him.
NHWhen you die, what dies? Your body, the heart stops and the blood stops flowing and the body begins to decompose!
Your Spirit goes to hades or into the presence of the Lord!
2 Cor 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,Hi W,
Man is body, soul and spirit all integrated into one being.Body is from earth.
Soul, and temporarily lent, life giving spirit from the breath of God.Spirit beings lack a body but are soul and spirit.
Spirit is fluid and amorphous and must be contained but can be poured out.God is a Spirit being of soul and spirit.
The Son is a spirit being in His image.We too are made in the image of God alike to Spirit beings but in flesh.
Thus to become like us the Word, a living being, had to partake of flesh.He was just like us and he died, with his own spirit leaving his body but was the first to be made alive in the Spirit of God.
We follow him.
JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = JEHOVAH
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God
Compare
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.With
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Lord
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel
God the Holy Ghost dwells in you. Comparisons.Compare
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
With
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Compare
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
With
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Compare
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
With
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party.
Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.
The HOLY SPIRIT (a Person) is endowed with very “personal” characteristics like:
Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.(John 14:26) “for He will teach you all things”.
1 Cor. 2:13,14 He teaches us spiritual things, helping us to discern spiritual things
(1 Cor. 12:11),He makes decisions –deciding who gets what spiritual gift
He has emotions and can be grieved (Eph. 4:30)
Romans 8:26 “The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.(John 16:8) He convicts of sin, of righteousness and judgment
Rev. 22:17
He invites people to “come” (Matt. 12:31, Mark 3:29) He can be sinned and blasphemed against, which can lead to the unpardonable sin
“The Spirit Himself bears witness…. that we are children of God (Romans 8:16
He speaks (Acts 8:29)
teaches (Luke 12:12)
reveals (Luke 2:26)
testifies (Acts 20:23)
searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11)
He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4)
He commands and guides (Acts 8:29)
He declares things to come (John 16:13)
In John chapters 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person. In John 14:16 He calls Him the Comforter (Parakletos), which is a title which could only be held by a person.The Holy Spirit is God
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.Mathew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Blasphemy can only be committed against God)
1 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord (God) is that Spirit: and wh
ere the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (only God hath immortality) offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2007,02:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,00:43) Hi W,
You seem to believe that the Son of Man took on human flesh but when he died it was only the flesh that died.
Is that compatible with the scriptural view of death for men?
When men die is it only the flesh that dies?Jas 2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.The spirit of Jesus left him.
NHWhen you die, what dies? Your body, the heart stops and the blood stops flowing and the body begins to decompose!
Your Spirit goes to hades or into the presence of the Lord!
2 Cor 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hi W,
When natural man dies HE dies.
His spirit does not go to Hades but his soul does while his spirit returns to God.
The sons of God, alive ever in the Spirit of God, are received by Jesus.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,19:42) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 14 2007,02:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2007,00:43) Hi W,
You seem to believe that the Son of Man took on human flesh but when he died it was only the flesh that died.
Is that compatible with the scriptural view of death for men?
When men die is it only the flesh that dies?Jas 2
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.The spirit of Jesus left him.
NHWhen you die, what dies? Your body, the heart stops and the blood stops flowing and the body begins to decompose!
Your Spirit goes to hades or into the presence of the Lord!
2 Cor 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Hi W,
When natural man dies HE dies.
His spirit does not go to Hades but his soul does while his spirit returns to God.
The sons of God, alive ever in the Spirit of God, are received by Jesus.
NHWho were the Spirits he went and preached to?
1 Peter 3:19
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;1 Peter 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.Humans are “Spirits” who have “souls” and live in a body!
Only the Word of God can seperate between Spirit and Soul!
Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.Scientist tell us that there is no seperating line between the “Joint(bone)” and “Marrow”.
They dont know when bone becomes marrow or the marrow becomes bone!
The Greek word for “soul” is psuche, which means:
1) breath
a) the breath of life
1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
a) of animals
b) of men
Its very much like the word Spirit, pneuma which can also mean:
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth
1 Cor 14:22
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.Heb 12:9
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,We are Spirit beings that have a soul and live in a body!
This is why man was created in the image of God, God is a spirit being so is man!
So if what you say is true then who were the Spirits that Jesus preached to?
Hi W,
You must not confuse the angelic spirits.
Heb 1
” 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
Or the spirits that the apostles thought of when they saw Christ walking on the water.
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
Or the evil demonic spirits.
Luke 11:24
” When the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding any, it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'Matt 12
43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.44Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
All beings of soul and spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2007,09:57) Hi Is 1.18,
The Spirit was given to Christ as a gift and God gives gifts without repentance.
That Spirit of God unites Christ with his God.Rom 11
“29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. “So that gift now can be called the Spirit of Christ.
It is still however the Spirit of God as to origin and the Holy Spirit as to nature.
God could have chosen to pour of His own Spirit again into the followers of Christ but chose instead that the gift must be poured from Christ to unite us to him.Jn 7
” 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
By the choice of God we must come, not to Himself, but to Jesus to drink from his gifted Spirit to bring all into unity with the Father.
This really is hard to follow. It seems to me that your presuppositions won't allow you the plain, commonsense and obvious interpretation of Galatians 4:6, so you have to use what I think are quite convoluted and awkward reasonings. The verses you quoted in no way support these statements:“The Spirit was given to Christ as a gift and God gives gifts without repentance.
That Spirit of God unites Christ with his God.So that gift now can be called the Spirit of Christ.
It is still however the Spirit of God as to origin and the Holy Spirit as to nature.
God could have chosen to pour of His own Spirit again into the followers of Christ but chose instead that the gift must be poured from Christ to unite us to him.”Galatians 4:6 isn't an exegetically complex verse, it's meaning is self evident. God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, and the Spirit cries out “Abba!, Father!”.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
