The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

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January 15, 2007 at 5:49 am#37149

Cult Buster

Participant

Christopher

Quote

Certainly there is no indication in that verse that the Spirit thinks or acts independantly of God is there?

The Holy Spirit is a Person:

a. He performs personal actions in association with other persons: Matthew 28:19; Acts 15:28;
Revelation 22:17 – NB The Holy Spirit is a separate person from the Father and Jesus – Matthew
28:19 etc.

b.Takes the place of Jesus: John 14:16. Could an impersonal force take the place of the Divine Jesus on earth?

c.The Greek word translated “Comforter,” “Helper,” or similar here is parakletos. This New Testament Greek word is never applied to other than persons.

d.In John chapters 14-16 Jesus deliberately broke the rules of Greek Grammar and referred to the Holy Spirit as “He,” “Him,” etc. Noted Theologians such as Leon Morris and J. I. Packer have noted this. Our own Scholar Woodrow Whidden, on page 71 of The Trinity, Review and Herald Publishing Association, Hagerstown, 2002, says, “we should observe that while the word ‘Spirit’ (Greek pneuma) is in the neuter gender in Greek, the personal pronoun ekeinos (‘that one,’ or ‘He,’ clearly used to refer to the neuter Spirit) is in the masculine gender. It is this grammatical fact that has led the majority of translators to render the other personal pronouns called for in these passages as ‘He’ rather than ‘it’ or ‘that one’…” The Greek word for “Spirit” is a neuter word and therefore should rightly be referred to as “it” but a perusal of Bible translations will confirm that because of what Whidden has stated Bible translators feel compelled to translate various pronouns as “He” etc. We must either accept that Jesus did this in order to make it clear to us that the Holy Spirit is a Person, or, we have to accept that our perfect Jesus made a number of uncharacteristic blunders.

e.He exhibits qualities which evidence personal existence: Mind – Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:10, Will – 1 Corinthians 12:11, Foreknowledge – John 16:13, He speaks – Acts 1:16, Commands and Forbids – Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2, 4; (In these verses just mentions He refers to Himself as “me” and “I.” If this was not a Person speaking then language doesn’t mean anything anymore); 16:6, 7; 10:19, 20, Appoints – Acts 20:28, Vexed and Grieved – Isaiah 63:10; Ephesians 4:30, Works Miracles – Acts 2:4; 8:39, Can be insulted – Hebrews 10:29, Blasphemed – Mark 3:29, Loves us – Romans 15:30.

The Holy Spirit is God:

Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way.

a.He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4.

b.Compare 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 with 6:19 and also 2 Corinthians 6:16.
Compare 1 Corinthians 12:11 with 12:28.

c.The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34 with Hebrews 10:15-17.
“ Psalm 95:7-11 with Hebrews 3:7-11.
“ Isaiah 6:9, 10 with Acts 28:25-28.
“ 2 Samuel 23:2 with 2 Samuel 23:3.

d. The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14.

It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party. Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.

January 15, 2007 at 5:50 am#37150

david

Participant

Quote

Hi CB,
The Holy Spirit must be treated with the same respect that the Father Himself is due. To blaspheme the Spirit is to blaspheme God the Father Himself, and is far more serious than blasphemy against the Son of God. But we do not pray to or worship the Spirit of God as God do we?

Don't expect him to reason with you on scripture. He is quite effective at repeating the same posts in 10 different threads over and over and over again. It's frustrating, because I try to respond to one, only to see it again in 5 other posts the next day. I sometimes respond to all 5 posts, but he never (or can't) answer back.

January 15, 2007 at 5:54 am#37151

david

Participant

Buster, I would like you to show me one scritpure, just one, only one scripture if you can, that proves the holy spirit is God, or worshipped as God almighty.

January 15, 2007 at 5:55 am#37152

david

Participant

IS THE HOLY SPIRIT A PERSON OF THE TRINITY, TO BE WORSHIPED AS GOD ALMIGHTY?
The answer to this is unequivocally “No.”
The fact that the Bible does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.
God’s Word will help us and guide us to a correct understanding of the holy spirit. The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit ALL the scriptures that refer to that spirit. For example, one cannot just look at the fact that personal attributes are applied to the holy spirit and conclude that this proves the holy spirit is a person, for personal attributes are definitely applied to very impersonal things in the Bible by means of personification. Just above, we spoke of the Bible as “teaching,” “explaining,” ‘helping’ and ‘guiding.’ Yet we all understand the use of personification and that the Bible isn’t a person, because we can also speak of the Bible in ways that demonstrate it clearly is not a person. The point of this paragraph is that we must therefore find a belief that fits ALL the scriptures.

DOES THE BIBLE TEACH OR SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
How many times does the Bible “tell”us that Jehovah is God? Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 time

Does the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
Expressions such as this occur 1000 times with reference to Jehovah.
Does the expression: “the holy spirit your God” occur 455 times, as it does of “Jehovah your God”?
Why is it that no scripture says clearly and plainly that the holy spirit is God?
It is because it is clear and plain that God’s holy spirit, is not God.
Again, I ask:
HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE TOLD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
In Theological Investigations, Karl Rahner, S.J., admits: “Θ?ε?ό?ς? [God] is still never used of the Spirit,” and: “ο? θ?ε?ό?ς? [literally, the God] is never used in the New Testament to speak of the π?ν?ε?υ?μα? α?γ?ι?ο?ν? [holy spirit].”—(Baltimore, Md.; 1961), translated from German, Vol. I, pp. 138, 143.

DID JESUS FOLLOWERS WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD?
There is no evidence that when Jesus was on earth, faithful Jews viewed the holy spirit as a person equal to the Father. They certainly did not worship the holy spirit. Rather, their worship was directed solely to Jehovah, the One whom Jesus himself called “my Father” and “my God.”—John 20:17.
The holy spirit is never worshiped in scripture, and neither does any verse of Scripture command such worship. This is odd if the holy spirit is truly a co-equal and co-eternal member of a triune “God” worthy of worship. If “God” is worthy of worship, and “God” exists in three persons, then shouldn’t each “God” person be worthy of worship? Then why is this idea not found in the Scripture?
How can this be harmonized with the supposition that the holy spirit is equal with both the Father and the Son?

MARK 13:32–WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS?
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
If the holy spirit is a separate and distinct being with personality, then Jesus either did not know this or was very inconsistent in giving “Him” proper due.
If the holy spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would he not also have to know what the Father knows? Jesus’ statement, then, would not have been true. If the holy spirit is a person and God, then Jesus statement is a lie.
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?
The holy spirit is conspicuously missing from this statement, just as it is missing from in the many visions seen of God and Jesus below:

A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….
For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit.
STEPHEN’S VISION
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
DANIEL’S VISION
In Daniel chapter 7 Daniel describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
JOHN’S VISION
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne. *(INSERT “THRONE”)
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3; 1 Thes 5:19), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).
ACTS 2:2
“and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting.”
JOHN 4:14
“Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.””
JOHN 7:37-39
“Now on the la
st day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow.’” However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.”
PSALM 45:7
“You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him.”
MATTHEW 25:1-10
““Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet. For the foolish took their lamps but took no oil with them, whereas the discreet took oil in their receptacles with their lamps. While the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep. Right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on YOUR way out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and put their lamps in order. The foolish said to the discreet, ‘Give us some of YOUR oil, because our lamps are about to go out.’ The discreet answered with the words, ‘Perhaps there may not be quite enough for us and YOU. Be on YOUR way, instead, to those who sell it and buy for yourselves.’ While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.”
MATTHEW 3:16
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.”
2 CORINTHIANS 1:22
“He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.”
2 CORINTHIANS 5:5
“Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit.”
EPHESIANS 1:13-14
“But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.”
So not only is the holy spirit not seen in vision with Jesus and Jehovah, represented in human form with a throne, crown, etc, instead, the holy spirit, when it is portrayed, is compared to completely impersonal things.
These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?
Along the same line….

THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS NO THRONE
In the same line of thought, many times it is explicitly declared that both the Father and the Son have a throne, and are seated upon that throne. (Rev 3:21; 22:3, etc)
But where is the throne of the holy spirit? How bizarre, if the holy spirit is the same as Father and the Son, and is one of the trinity, equal with them in power, substance, and glory! How is it that it has no throne while the others have?

SECONDARY POSITION IN THE SCRIPTURES / GREETINGS…
How could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given a secondary position in the Scriptures? Above we saw that it is missing from the visions of Jehovah and his Son in heaven. But it is somehow neglected to be mentioned in several other places by the divinely inspired Bible writers.
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3
Where is the holy spirit in this? While speaking of the grand life saving importance of taking in knowledge, where is the mention of this supposed third person of the trinity?
The apostle Paul in the opening of his letters often used expressions like this: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) This is Paul’s standard greeting in his letters to the congregations, as well as individuals to whom he wrote. In each of his greetings he never mentions the holy spirit. Why did he not mention the holy spirit as a person? Because Paul knew nothing of the trinity.
James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit. And the same can be said of Peter’s closing words. Why? Because they were not Trinitarians either.
Paul’s same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every letter that bears his name. (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; etc.) In Romans through Thessalonians, the Apostle Paul sends personal greetings from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and unexplainable oversight if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!
If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well?
The only good answer is that there is no such person, for as an inspired writer of Scripture, Paul was on intimate terms with God and his Son, Jesus. If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations?
When Paul does include additional persons in his greetings, salutations and adjurations, he names “the elect angels,” not “the holy spirit” (1 Tim. 5:21; cp. Luke 9:26 and Rev. 3:5). How interesting.
In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the holy spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God's Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.
Yet here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit. 1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person.

NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSE
That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name.
The Bible never speaks of the holy spirit in the same way that it speaks of God or of Jesus. For example, in the Bible, the holy spirit does not have a personal name.
Is that just an insignificant detail? No, names are important in the Bible. God stressed the importance of his own name when he said: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8) The importance of Jesus Christ’s name was emphasized before his birth when an angel told Mary: “You are to call his name Jesus.” (Luke 1:31) If the names of the Father and of the Son are so important, why does the holy spirit not have a personal name? Surely, this detail alone should make a person wonder whether the spirit is really equal to the Father and the Son.

THE HOLY SPIRIT LACKS PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION
Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his f
aithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’
It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—Compare Ac 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; 19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations.
(I don't really care if your Bibles have inserted the definite article (the) in front of it in ever place. It proves nothing.)
“THE HOLY SPIRIT”
Jehovah God, the Creator, the Father, the Most High, the Almighty, has many distinctive titles and designations. He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”
Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”?
If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy?

USED POSSESSIVELY
More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29

LOVE–WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE JEHOVAH AND JESUS. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
We are required to love God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ; but no one is ever required to love the holy spirit. No such precept is given, nor is there any reference to it. Why?

LOVE–BETWEEN FATHER AND SON. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father. (Mat 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18,22, etc.) Where does Jesus speak of the holy spirit as a person? Where does he speak of the relationship between himself and the holy spirit? The holy spirit is absent from Christ’s teachings in general. Jesus makes many statements about himself and the Father. He doesn’t make similar statements about himself and the holy spirit.
While very much is said about how tenderly the Father loves the Son, and how devotedly the Son loves the Father, not one word is said about the Father's loving the holy spirit, nor that the Son loves the holy spirit, nor that the holy spirit loves either the Father or the Son. No such thought is ever expressed. How shall we account for this fact if the Father, Son, and the holy spirit, are three persons alike and equal?
How astonishing, we say, that so much is said about the mutual love between the Father and the Son, and yet, not one word is said about a similar love between the holy sprit and the other two persons! Why is it left out in this manner?

LOVE–THE FATHER AND SON LOVE MAN. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Furthermore, it is never said that the holy spirit ever loves man; yet it is quite frequently declared how greatly both the Father and the Son do love man. But no such thing is ever said of the holy spirit. How shall we account for this?
(While some will quote scriptures such as the following, we notice immediately that none of these scriptures speak of the holy spirit personally, as having intamacy between itself and God, Jesus or mankind, DO THEY?
Which of them speaks of the holy spirit loving you? Which of them speaks of the holy spirit loving God? Or loving Jesus?)
Rom 15:30
Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the “love of the Spirit”, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
Gal 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Phil 2:1
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Tim 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I Pet 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things. You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith. . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land . . . “

MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)
HOLY SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS, AND SO DO BLOOD AND WATER
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” (How can blood and water be in agreement with each other if they are not persons? I guess that’s more personification.)
Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.

“SOMETHING, NOT SOMEONE”–CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA ADMITS
Even though Catholics view the holy spirit as part of the trinity, New Catholic Encyclopedia Encyclopedia must admit: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.

THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The hol
y spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

January 15, 2007 at 5:55 am#37153

david

Participant

PERSONIFICATION DOES NOT PROVE PERSONALITY
Go back and look at the very first two questions I asked: “Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?
Today, we speak of the Bible in a similar manner when we say that it says something or teaches a doctrine. We can say that the Bible helps, comforts, guides us, etc. In using such expressions, we do not mean that the Bible is a person, do we? Do we??? Since scriptures speak of the holy spirit in an impersonal way, these other expressions must be a figure of speech– personification. Personification is a universally understood use of language.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. All three are said to BE witnesses. But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
IN WHAT SENSE DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAK?
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Mark 13:11; Luke 12: 12; Acts 1:16; Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Acts 13:2,9,10; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, in effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3)
Notice what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman, who believes in the trinity acknowledges in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.” (1982 Edition)

January 15, 2007 at 6:04 am#37157

Cult Buster

Participant

David I have shown you numerous scriptures that prove the Holy Spirit is God but you are stubborn to hold on to your Arian religion.

Here. Look again this time don't dance and squirm around the truth.

JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Rev 22:9 worship God.

Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Compare
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

With
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

January 15, 2007 at 6:14 am#37159

Cult Buster

Participant

David. There are plenty of Bible proofs that the Holy Spirit is God. If He is God, which He clearly is then you can worship Him, though the plan of salvation recommends your worship is through Jesus.

I doubt that the truth will make any impression on you. Arianism is a cult and that is reality. I can understand that people on this forum do not like the label cult. I can understand why you Arians will not harmonise within the church body.

Here. Look again. Plenty of scripture to prove that the Holy Spirit is God.

b.Takes the place of Jesus: John 14:16. Could an impersonal force take the place of the Divine Jesus on earth?

c.The Greek word translated “Comforter,” “Helper,” or similar here is parakletos. This New Testament Greek word is never applied to other than persons.

The Holy Spirit is God:

Most, even those who deny the personality of the Holy Spirit, will admit that He is God in some way.

a.He is clearly referred to as God: Acts 5:3, 4.

b.Compare 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 with 6:19 and also 2 Corinthians 6:16.
Compare 1 Corinthians 12:11 with 12:28.

c.The Holy Spirit is Yahweh: Compare Jeremiah 31:33, 34 with Hebrews 10:15-17.
“ Psalm 95:7-11 with Hebrews 3:7-11.
“ Isaiah 6:9, 10 with Acts 28:25-28.
“ 2 Samuel 23:2 with 2 Samuel 23:3.

d. The Holy Spirit is Eternal: Hebrews 9:14.

January 15, 2007 at 6:17 am#37160

david

Participant

Quote

David I have shown you numerous scriptures that prove the Holy Spirit is God but you are stubborn to hold on to your Arian religion.

You say this. Yet you haven't once attempted to answer even one of my questions.
I've responded to your posts for weeks. You never have conversations. You only post your already posted posts in various threads. You never discuss, or communicate.

Two posts ago, you posted the same post as you just posted. Yes. I saw it. No, I didn't bother responding to it, because I most likely already have a few times in various threads.

Why would I even attempt to read your posts and respond when I know my responce will be completely ignored?

January 15, 2007 at 6:19 am#37161

Cult Buster

Participant

Open your eyes David. There is plenty of scripture that the Holy Spirit is God. Just admit your error.

The Holy Spirit is God

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Mathew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Blasphemy can only be committed against God)

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God (the Holy Ghost) in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God (the Holy Spirit) , and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord (God) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (only God hath immortality) offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

January 15, 2007 at 6:21 am#37163

david

Participant

Quote

There are plenty of Bible proofs that the Holy Spirit is God. If He is God, which He clearly is then you can worship Him, though the plan of salvation recommends your worship is through Jesus.

Wow. If he is God, “which he clearly is then you can worship him.” And guess what? Since you are worshiping him, he must be God, right? And since he's clearly God, you can worship him, right? And since he is to be worshiped, he must be God, right?….

I've been through this in another thread.

CB, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: Yes, if he is God, IF HE IS GOD, then he should be worshiped.

You said it yourself.

But here's the crazy insane part.

NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE DO THE JEWS OR EARLY CHRISTIANS OR BIBLE WRITERS OF ANYTHING SAY OR HINT IN THE LEAST THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT SHOULD BE WORSHIPED.
What is so obvious to you, somehow evaded the nation of Israel, and the Bibe writers.
Which of you is correct? Them, or you? I'll go with them.

January 15, 2007 at 6:23 am#37164

david

Participant

Quote

Open your eyes David. There is plenty of scripture that the Holy Spirit is God. Just admit your error.

The Holy Spirit is God

HEY!

cb!

In case you haven't notice, and I very much doubt you have, I've already responded to this scripture about 4 times to you. You were only silent on my responce, so I assumed you either don't read much or can't defend your beliefs.

I would LOVE to have an actual conversation with you about the scriptures. Believe me, I've tried. It's impossible with you. You don't have conversations. You come close to what some would call spamming.

david

January 15, 2007 at 6:24 am#37166

Cult Buster

Participant

Arianism is a cult. Instead of feeding on the Word, you just feed off each other.

The HOLY SPIRIT (a Person) is endowed with very “personal” characteristics like:
Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.
(John 14:26) “for He will teach you all things”.
1 Cor. 2:13,14 He teaches us spiritual things, helping us to discern spiritual things
(1 Cor. 12:11),He makes decisions –deciding who gets what spiritual gift
He has emotions and can be grieved (Eph. 4:30)
Romans 8:26 “The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

(John 16:8) He convicts of sin, of righteousness and judgment
Rev. 22:17
He invites people to “come” (Matt. 12:31, Mark 3:29) He can be sinned and blasphemed against, which can lead to the unpardonable sin
“The Spirit Himself bears witness…. that we are children of God (Romans 8:16
He speaks (Acts 8:29)
teaches (Luke 12:12)
reveals (Luke 2:26)
testifies (Acts 20:23)
searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11)
He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4)
He commands and guides (Acts 8:29)
He declares things to come (John 16:13)
In John chapters 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person. In John 14:16 He calls Him the Comforter (Parakletos), which is a title which could only be held by a person.

Isa 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

January 15, 2007 at 6:29 am#38717

david

Participant

CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT THE ABOVE POST IS NOT VERY CONCLUSIVE.

A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….
For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit.
STEPHEN’S VISION
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
DANIEL’S VISION
In Daniel chapter 7 Daniel describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
JOHN’S VISION
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne. *(INSERT “THRONE”)
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3; 1 Thes 5:19), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).
ACTS 2:2
“and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting.”
JOHN 4:14
“Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up t
o impart everlasting life.””
JOHN 7:37-39
“Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow.’” However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.”
PSALM 45:7
“You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him.”
MATTHEW 25:1-10
““Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet. For the foolish took their lamps but took no oil with them, whereas the discreet took oil in their receptacles with their lamps. While the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep. Right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on YOUR way out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and put their lamps in order. The foolish said to the discreet, ‘Give us some of YOUR oil, because our lamps are about to go out.’ The discreet answered with the words, ‘Perhaps there may not be quite enough for us and YOU. Be on YOUR way, instead, to those who sell it and buy for yourselves.’ While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.”
MATTHEW 3:16
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.”
2 CORINTHIANS 1:22
“He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.”
2 CORINTHIANS 5:5
“Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit.”
EPHESIANS 1:13-14
“But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.”
So not only is the holy spirit not seen in vision with Jesus and Jehovah, represented in human form with a throne, crown, etc, instead, the holy spirit, when it is portrayed, is compared to completely impersonal things.
These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?
Along the same line….

THE HOLY SPIRIT LACKS PERSONAL IDENTIFICAT
ION
Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’
It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—Compare Ac 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; 19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations.
(I don't really care if your Bibles have inserted the definite article (the) in front of it in ever place. It proves nothing.)
“THE HOLY SPIRIT”
Jehovah God, the Creator, the Father, the Most High, the Almighty, has many distinctive titles and designations. He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”
Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”?
If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy?

THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to
be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

ADD TO ABOVE:
Many words associated with God’s spirit give it the attributes of a liquid, which by definition cannot refer to a person. This liquid language is consistent with the spirit being His presence and power. We are baptized (literally “dipped”) with and in it like water (Matt. 3:11; Acts 1:5). We are all made to “drink” from the same spirit, as from a well or fountain (1 Cor. 12:13). It is written on our hearts like ink (2 Cor. 3:3). We are “anointed” with it, like oil (Acts 10:38; 2 Cor. 1:21 and 22; 1 John 2:27). We are “sealed” with it as with melted wax (Eph. 1:13). It is “poured out” on us (Acts 10:45; Rom. 5:5). It is “measured” as if it had volume (2 Kings 2:9; John 3:34). We are to be “filled” with it (Acts 2:4; Eph. 5:18). This “filling” is to capacity at the new birth and to overflowing as we act according to its influence.

Even the use of spirit as “wind” implies a liquidity, for air masses behave as a fluid, flowing from areas of higher to lower pressure. All this figurative language must be designed to point us to the truth that the spirit of God is the invisible power and influence of God. It comes into our lives to buoy us up, to help us, to comfort us, to unite us and anoint us for the work to which He has called us. As liquid seeks the lowest level, so the spirit of God comes to us in our lowly and needy state, beneath our sins and iniquities, our faults and our failures to lift us up to stand in all the grace and truth that Christ brought.

TIMING OF THIS BELIEF’S RISE–PART OF THE FORTOLD APOSTASY
Not until the fourth century C.E. did the teaching that the holy spirit was a person and part of the “Godhead” become official church dogma.
Early church “fathers” did not so teach; Justin Marty
r of the second century C.E. taught that the holy spirit was an ‘influence or mode of operation of the Deity’; Hippolytus likewise ascribed no personality to the holy spirit. The Scriptures themselves unite to show that God’s holy spirit is not a person but is God’s force by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will.
“The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power.” (Catholic theologian Fortman, The Triune God, 1982 Edition)
Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: “The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin Martyr: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.” (1869)
Notice what the New Catholic Encyclopedia Encyclopedia says: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.
Was it that those who lived only a few decades after the apostles were speaking of the holy spirit “too impersonally,” or was it that they are speaking of it too personally?
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:“Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.”
(The New Encyclopædia Britannica, 15th Edition, 1985, Micropædia, Volume 1, page 488.)

“HOLY GHOST”–AND OLD ENGLISH
While the term “Holy Ghost” occurs some ninety times in the King James and Douay versions, it is actually an Old English term, “ghost” being derived from the German word geist, meaning “spirit.” That is why the expression “Holy Ghost” does not appear in modern translations.

CAPITAL LETTERS, AND THE “THE” IN FRONT OF “HOLY SPIRIT”
The fact is that the truth about the holy spirit has been beclouded by the prejudices of Bible translators. Their use of capital letters cannot be used to prove the holy spirit is a person. Why not? Because at the time the Scriptures were written proper and common nouns were not thus distinguished from each other. The same is true regarding their adding the definite article ”the” before holy spirit in some hundred instances where the Bible writers had not done so. To omit the definite article seemed disrespectful to such Bible translators but not to the Bible writers. Thus Paul wrote that God’s kingdom meant “peace and joy with holy spirit,” not “with the holy spirit.” And Peter wrote that God’s servants spoke, being “borne along by holy spirit,” not “by the holy spirit.”—Rom. 14:17; 2 Pet. 1:21, NW.

BLASPHEMY AGAINST HOLY SPIRIT
“For the same reason it is dubious whether Christ's warning to the Pharisees as regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt., xii, 31) can be brought forward as proof.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p 47-49)
I looked up the word blasphemy. The first definition I came across was: “blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred)”–www.wordnet.princeton.com
So disrespect for God “or” something sacred. “Sacred” can be defined as something made or held holy. God’s holy spirit is…holy, sacred.
Therefore, this scripture cannot be used to prove that the holy spirit which can be blasphemed is God.

“HE, HIS, HIM…OR “IT”
COMFORTOR–“he” “his,” “him”
Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive parakletos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns (ie: “him”). On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun (“it”) to refer to the holy spirit, pneu?ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with para?kletos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”

MATTHEW 28:19–WHAT DOESN’T IT SAY?
This text does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God. All it proves is one’s ability to count to three. “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The phrase: “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” appears in the Bible 15 times that I can see. In view of this, the fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!
McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20:
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove? 1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that. Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia, which advocates the trinity, admits that taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity.
As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often. One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.
NAME–IN SINGULAR
Why would Jesus use the word “Name” in a singular manner for all three?
Jesus and Jehovah have different names, and they are both mentioned in this verse, so how can it be referring to “name” in the sense many believe?
I have several thousand scriptures that show that they (The Father and Son) in fact have different names! And I would show a scripture that shows the holy spirit has a different name, but for some reason, I can't find God's holy spirit's name.
In the name of all that is good, in the name of truth, in the name of simplicity and peace, in the name of what is right, in the name of all that is good and holy, in the name of all that is just and upright, I ask you truthfuly….
if there is no name given for the holy spirit in scripture ever, (whereas God's name is mentioned 7000 times fo
r example,) why ascribe that meaning of “name” to this verse?
As well, since it mentions name only in singular and since there are three mentioned and at least two of them have different names (the Father and Son) again, I ask, why ascribe that meaning of “name” to this verse?
The Greek term for “name” (óno·ma) also can have this sense. Thus, while some translations (KJ, AS) follow the Greek text at Matthew 10:41 literally and say that the one that “receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man’s reward,” more modern translations say, “receives a prophet because he is a prophet” and “receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man,” or similar. (RS, AT, JB, NW) Thus, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1930, Vol. I, p. 245) says on Matthew 28:19: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” Hence baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.

THE “HAND” AND “THE FINGER OF GOD”
“It is the finger of God!” the magic-practicing priests of Egypt admitted when they failed to turn dust into gnats, as Moses had done. (Exodus 8:18, 19) On Mount Sinai, Jehovah gave Moses “tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.” (Exodus 31:18) Was this a literal finger? No. Jehovah obviously does not have literal fingers. What, then? Bible writers Luke and Matthew give us the key. One recorded that “by means of God’s finger,” Jesus expelled demons. The other explained that Jesus did this “by means of God’s spirit.” (Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28) So the holy spirit is “God’s finger,” his instrument for accomplishing his will. It is not a person, but God’s dynamic active force.
The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the “hand” and “the finger” of God (Ezek. 3:14; Job 26:13; Ps. 8:3; Luke 11:20). It is nonsense to call a “co-equal and co-eternal person” the “hand” and finger” of another such person. In fact, as a man’s hand and finger are subordinate and submissive to the will of a man, so the spirit of God is subordinate to the will of God. As what is done by the hand of a man is done by the man himself, so what is done by the spirit of God is done by God Himself. His spirit is his will in action, performing that which He “sends” it to perform.

The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the “hand” and “the finger” of God (Ezek. 3:14; Job 26:13; Ps. 8:3; Luke 11:20). It is nonsense to call a “co-equal and co-eternal person” the “hand” and finger” of another such person. In fact, as a man’s hand and finger are subordinate and submissive to the will of a man, so the spirit of God is subordinate to the will of God. As what is done by the hand of a man is done by the man himself, so what is done by the spirit of God is done by God Himself. His spirit is his will in action, performing that which He “sends” it to perform.

BREATH OF GOD
The “breath” of God and the “spirit” of God are synonymous terms (Job 4:9; Ps. 33:6; Ps. 104:29 and 30; John 3:8; Job 27:3). It is as inconceivable that the breath of God could be a person distinct from God as that the breath of a human could be a person distinct from a human. It is especially absurd to speak of one self-existent and eternal person as “the breath” of another such person.

MATTHEW 3:16
At Jesus' baptism in Matthew 3:16, Jesus received God's spirit at that time, which conflicts with the idea that the Son was always one with the Holy Spirit.

MATTHEW 1:20
In Matthew 1:20 we find further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct entity, but God's divine power. Here we read that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. However, Jesus continually prayed to and addressed God the Father as His Father and not the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:32-33; 11:25-27; 12:50). He never represented the Holy Spirit as His Father.

1 CORINTHIANS 2:12
1 Corinthians 2:12 directly opposes the “spirit of the world” with “the spirit which is of God.” As the “spirit of the world” is not a person separate from “the world,” neither is the “spirit of God” a person separate from God. Each is an influence emanating from a source that produces certain attitudes, behaviors or “fruit.”

JOHN 14:17; 1 JOHN 4:6
If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. The fact is that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power under which a person acts, but neither is a person in itself.

CONCLUSION
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31.
To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the texts which personify the holy spirit employ a figure of speech, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood.
If the holy spirit was a person, why did Jesus not reveal it when he was on earth? His disciples, being Israelites, believed that Jehovah is unique. To this day, Jews continue to recite Deuteronomy 6:4: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” There is no suggestion in the Hebrew Scriptures that the Supreme Being is in three persons.
Neither the Jews nor the early Christians viewed the holy spirit as part of a Trinity. That teaching came centuries later. As A Catholic Dictionary notes: “The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381”—some three and a half centuries after holy spirit filled the disciples at Pentecost!
The holy spirit is spoken of in a way that people are spoken of. But it is also spoken of in ways that people are never spoken of. Therefore, when it is spoken of in ways that people are spoken of, it must be personification, something the Bible uses quite frequently.
Personification in itself does not prove the holy spirit is a person any more than it does when used of wisdom, death, sin, the Bible or anything else.

POINT FORM:
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
–The Bible gives no indication that the holy spirt was worshiped.
–The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures give no hint even that the holy spirit is a person, much less that it is worshiped as God. (They viewed God’s spirit as something God possesses.)
–The holy spirit is never portrayed as a person, sitting on a throne for example…it's shown to be God's finger, his hand, a dove, fire, etc, etc….but never shown or pictured as a distinct person.
–The holy spirit is left out on a whole lot–knowing what God knows–being there pictured with Jesus and his Father in all the visions, etc.
–It is without question given a secondary position in scripture. (John 17:3) All the greetings of the apostle Paul's letters, not to mention James, Peter and John open by saying something like: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) They seem to be unfamiliar with the third part of the trinity. Why?
–The holy spirit has no distinctive name unlike Jehovah and Jesus and everyone else.
–The holy spirit is God's holy spirit, “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” It is something God possesses.
–The capital letters in your Bible that show Holy Spirit mean absolutely nothing. The definite article “the” has also been added about 100 times to
make it appear more so to be a person. The greek word for spirit is neuter and most Greek manuscripts employ “it” with reference to the holy spirit.
–The holy spirit is used in parallel with very impersonal things–water and fire for example. Another example: “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” (2 cor 6:4-6)
–You can be filled with holy spirit just as you can be filled with wisdom and faith or joy. Lumping the holy spirit in with impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
–The holy spirit being part of a trinity was not really an established belief until a few hundred years after Christ, coincidentally, many other apostasy like changes had occurred around this time.
–It's quite often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person. It is referred to as a “gift.” It is said to be divisible and able to be distributed.
It can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. Holy spirit was ‘given,’ and ‘poured out upon,’ It can be quenched. People can drink of it. The holy spirit also renews us and must be stirred up within us. Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats.
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it.
–In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father. He doesn't do this of the holy spirit.

January 15, 2007 at 6:31 am#37167

david

Participant

lET'S at least TRY to have a conversation.

Notice that one post ago, I said:

Quote
There are plenty of Bible proofs that the Holy Spirit is God. If He is God, which He clearly is then you can worship Him, though the plan of salvation recommends your worship is through Jesus.

I've been through this in another thread.

CB, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: Yes, if he is God, IF HE IS GOD, then he should be worshiped.

You said it yourself.

But here's the crazy insane part.

Do you have a responce to this post?

January 15, 2007 at 6:37 am#37169

Cult Buster

Participant

David

Quote

You say this. Yet you haven't once attempted to answer even one of my questions.

David, I have answered your questions, but you give vague answers, ducking weaving and dancing around the truth.

On this forum, which is predominantly Arian there are a multitude of you but only two or sometimes three who defend the truth about the Godhead. I cannot spend the whole day on this forum like some.

Bear in mind also that Nick Hassen virtually hogs this forum with his continuous postings it is very difficult for me to get around personally to everyone everytime.

If you can condense your concerns in a few main points I will answer them again.

CB.

January 15, 2007 at 6:41 am#37171

david

Participant

Quote

David, I have answered your questions,

Where?

January 15, 2007 at 6:43 am#37172

david

Participant

Quote

Arianism is a cult. Instead of feeding on the Word, you just feed off each other.

Isa 42:18 Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

The Bible will HELP us to figure this out. It will TELL us the truth and GUIDE us to the right conclusion. The Bible actually INVITES us to learn from it. And if we do, it will CONVINCE you that you are wrong. What does it TEACH? What does it SAY? What does it REVEAL? What KNOWLEDGE does it contain about God's holy spirit?
Instead of just following the traditions of men, we should let the Bible itself EXPLAIN.

The Bible is a very special thing. We speak of it in personal ways a lot. This does not make it a person.

January 15, 2007 at 6:46 am#37173

Cult Buster

Participant

David

Quote

CB, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: Yes, if he is God, IF HE IS GOD, then he should be worshiped.

You said it yourself

You are twisting my words David.

Here is my actual quote

Quote

There are plenty of Bible proofs that the Holy Spirit is God. If He is God, which He clearly is then you can worship Him, though the plan of salvation recommends your worship is through Jesus.

This is why I haven't taken you seriously because you twist my words and resort to falsehood and misrepresentation.

CB.

January 15, 2007 at 6:47 am#37174

david

Participant

If you can condense your concerns in a few main points I will answer them again.

–CB's words.

Ok. I will condence the main points greatly. Then, let's pick one point and try to stay on subject and just discuss that one point, which ever point you like.

-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God. (It doesn't. I know you'll disagree, but nowhere does it clearly say anywhere: the holy spirit is God.) Given that we are told thousands of times that Jehovah is God, this confuses me.
–The Bible gives no indication that the holy spirt was worshiped.
–The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures give no hint even that the holy spirit is a person, much less that it is worshiped as God. (They viewed God’s spirit as something God possesses.)
–The holy spirit is never portrayed as a person, sitting on a throne for example…it's shown to be God's finger, his hand, a dove, fire, etc, etc….but never shown or pictured as a distinct person.
–The holy spirit is left out on a whole lot–knowing what God knows–being there pictured with Jesus and his Father in all the visions, etc.
–It is without question given a secondary position in scripture. (John 17:3) All the greetings of the apostle Paul's letters, not to mention James, Peter and John open by saying something like: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) They seem to be unfamiliar with the third part of the trinity. Why?
–The holy spirit has no distinctive name unlike Jehovah and Jesus and everyone else.
–The holy spirit is God's holy spirit, “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” It is something God possesses.
–The capital letters in your Bible that show Holy Spirit mean absolutely nothing. The definite article “the” has also been added about 100 times to make it appear more so to be a person. The greek word for spirit is neuter and most Greek manuscripts employ “it” with reference to the holy spirit.
–The holy spirit is used in parallel with very impersonal things–water and fire for example. Another example: “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” (2 cor 6:4-6)
–You can be filled with holy spirit just as you can be filled with wisdom and faith or joy. Lumping the holy spirit in with impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
–The holy spirit being part of a trinity was not really an established belief until a few hundred years after Christ, coincidentally, many other apostasy like changes had occurred around this time.
–It's quite often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person. It is referred to as a “gift.” It is said to be divisible and able to be distributed.
It can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. Holy spirit was ‘given,’ and ‘poured out upon,’ It can be quenched. People can drink of it. The holy spirit also renews us and must be stirred up within us. Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats.
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it.
–In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father. He doesn't do this of the holy spirit.

January 15, 2007 at 6:50 am#37176

david

Participant

Quote

David
Quote
CB, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT: Yes, if he is God, IF HE IS GOD, then he should be worshiped.

You said it yourself

You are twisting my words David.

Here is my actual quote
Quote
There are plenty of Bible proofs that the Holy Spirit is God. If He is God, which He clearly is then you can worship Him, though the plan of salvation recommends your worship is through Jesus.

This is why I haven't taken you seriously because you twist my words and resort to falsehood and misrepresentation.

CB.

How did I twist your words? You said, and I quote:
“If He [the holy spirit] is God, which He clearly is then you can worship Him…”
I said:
“Yes, if he is God, IF HE IS GOD, then he should be worshiped.”

I guess I changed your 'he “can” be worshiped' to he “should” be worshipped.
But if he truly God, not only 'can' he be worshiped, but he “should” be worshipped. I corrected you here, and made your statement more accurate.

Please explain how I misquoted you.

dave

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The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

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