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Hi David,
The planted word grows slowly in us if fed and watered till it manifests as Christ in us, the Spirit of Christ and Paul anxiously waited for this evidence in the Galatians. First the shoot, then the leaf, then the fruit in the plant. Other religious plants try to imitate the work of God but cannot produce good fruit and are to be pulled out and cast in the fire.Paul could say it was no longer he that lived but Christ that lived in him, and Peter showed this evidence by the words of his mouth;
” You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”
much to the joy of his master.
The heart and mind of the inner man are renewed as we are transformed to having the mind of Christ inspired by the Word of God and the heart is imprinted by the Law of Christ by the work of that living and powerful Spirit.
Not by might[religion]nor by power[striving] but by My Spirit.
Be still and know that I am God.Search for the rest, the light burden, as we are lifted up as on eagles wings.
Quote David Poor example!
Do you have any scriptural evidence that a stone spoke!
No Jesus is making a point, that if Gods people dont praise him then stones could cry out.
He is not making a doctrinal statement!
Think on these scriptures. Examine them closely and then prove to me where these scriptures do not show the Holy Spirit as being personal.
Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN!
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.WJ, thank you for attempting to converse with me.
Yes, I have noted all these scriptures. I have mentioned that I've noticed them. I've spoken of them often. But there's a group of scriptures out there that you haven't made comment on.
First, on the scriptures you've mentioned, we KNOW THAT THE BIBLE OFTEN USES PERSONIFICATION.
Personification is a universally understood use of language. It's found everywhere. People everywhere understand this.
SO IS THE BIBLE USING PERSONFICATION
OR
IS THE HOLY SPIRIT A PERSON?If we only had the scriptures above, we wouldn't know. But if we only had those scriptures, it would seem to be that the holy spirit was a person, just because it's spoken of so often in that way.
Yet, we have all these other scriptures that speak of it in a way that would suggest otherwise:
–NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSE
–USED POSSESSIVELY
–USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things. You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith. . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land . . . “
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)
HOLY SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS, AND SO DO BLOOD AND WATER
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” (How can blood and water be in agreement with each other if they are not persons? I guess that’s more personification.)
Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.–THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did
it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.WJ SAID:
Quote Think on these scriptures. Examine them closely and then prove to me where these scriptures do not show the Holy Spirit as being personal. First, acknowledge that the word personification exists. Look it up in a dictionary. Think back to the days in English Class. Personification is a real use of language used quite often, by you an me. We use it all the time, often without being aware of it.
Once you've acknowledged the very existence of personification, a word I don't think you've used in this thread, then ask if it could be being applied to the holy spirit.Y E S, THE HOLY SPIRIT is without question often spoken of in a way that could indicate it is a person.
OR it could indicate personification.BUT, WJ, BUT, BUT, BUT, SINCE WE HAVE all those other scriptures which CANNOT be applied to a person, the logic is simple, the reasoning is simple, the math is certain.
If we have statements which allow for option
1) a person
2) personificationand we have other statments which do not allow for it to be a person,
then, we must, WE MUST conclude that those other uses are personification. There is no other possibility.
This is how the Jews viewd God's holy spirit. This is how the early Christians viewed it. Only with the apostasy did this change.YOU SEE, WJ, you asked the question wrong:
You asked: Think on THESE scriptures. Examine THEM closely and then prove to me where THESE scriptures do not show the Holy Spirit as being personal.I would prefer to look at the Bible as a whole! To look at all the uses of the holy spirit, and all the ways it is spoken, not just the ones that you have highlighted!
When we do this, there is only one conclusion that can logically be drawn.
Nick, it's so “cute” how you never answer questions. It's “cute” for the first couple thousand posts, but after that, the cuteness begins to wane.
We are often having competely different conversations Nick.
Here's how it often works.
You make an outrageous statment. I then repeatedly ask you to clear up what you said or verify it, or prove it in any way whatsoever. (You know, the statment about “God” being the holy spirit's “name.”)
And then, you, do one of two things. (and I'm really not sure which)
1. You either avoid the question and post completely unrelated material.
2. You attempt to answer the question, but do so in a way that has no bearing on what you previously said or in a way that doesn't actually answer the question at all.And here's the crazy part. I often agree (completely agree) with your follow up statments (which seem to be completely unrelated to your previous original statment)
You will go on and on, posting things to me that I agree with, all the while, it seems like I disagree, because you keep posting things. And all the while, I just want an answer, a direct answer to my original question.When I say: “Nick,” who do people think I'm talking to?
You?
Or your finger?It's true that your fingers might be the force that physically makes me hear you. They might be the means for you to accomplish what you want. (how interesting) But when I think of Nick, I am not thinking of your finger. And nor is anyone else. When I say Nick, I am thinking of you, as a whole. Your finger, is “of” you. It is not you. It is not named “nick.”
If it was, how confusing that would be. All those previous posts directed to Nick, may actually be to your finger?
Nonsense.david
Quote Hi W,
We are people of the bible.
Thus we can look at scripture and draw conclusions and have opinions.
But we cannot state those opinions as FACT unless we can find it written and witnessed.
Because you do not grasp the extraordinary abilities of God, having diminished Him to His Son and confused them, you cannot grasp the amazing abilities of His Spirit.
On your own aegis you have decided and taught the Spirit is another person.
Show wisdom and discernment and abhor foolish greek logic.NH
Look again! Jesus taught the Spirit is a person!
To be clear I mean on both sides of the issue are intelligent people.
I am not used to participating in discussions with others who take serious the study of scriptures.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2007,07:38) Quote Hi W,
We are people of the bible.
Thus we can look at scripture and draw conclusions and have opinions.
But we cannot state those opinions as FACT unless we can find it written and witnessed.
Because you do not grasp the extraordinary abilities of God, having diminished Him to His Son and confused them, you cannot grasp the amazing abilities of His Spirit.
On your own aegis you have decided and taught the Spirit is another person.
Show wisdom and discernment and abhor foolish greek logic.NH
Look again! Jesus taught the Spirit is a person!
Hi W,
O Dear!
Do we have too read between the lines again?
I thought it was simple such that children could understand and come to him?
Serious intellectual stuff goes over our heads, as we are trained in simplicity.Quote would prefer to look at the Bible as a whole! To look at all the uses of the holy spirit, and all the ways it is spoken, not just the ones that you have highlighted! When we do this, there is only one conclusion that can logically be drawn
David
Then why did you cut off the bottom half of my post?
Is it because you dont want to look at those scriptures?
Just wondering?
Is the Holy spirit GODS WILL PREFORMED ON EARTH
A force causing Gods will to be preformed
To acomplish all that GOD has designed to happen beginning to end
Coming upon and into men to move them to action to execute the mission
Gods devine plan is
A substance of things to happen
Hi Charity,
Force is inanimate and comprises only energy and can come from outside a person but the finger of God ever proceeds from God, encompassing every aspect of the nature of God himself, wisdom and power and knowledge and hope and love and salvation drawing us to Himself in His Son.Quote Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.God is a Spirit. Is he not a person?
i'm sorry, wj I missed this post.
Your REASONING IS COMPLETELY FALSE.
Here's why:
You state that Jehovah is a spirit (correctly) and you state that Jehovah is a person.
You then conclude that the holy spirit is a person.This is not logical clear thinking.
Look at the original words.
ORIGINAL LANGUAGE WORDS–
These 4 words are translated “spirit” in the Bible:
2 HEBREW WORDS (“ruah” and “neshaman”)
2 GREEK WORDS (“pneuma” and “”phantasma”)(Of these four, two are used only twice: “Neshamah”, which means “breath,” and “phantasma” which means “phantom” or “apparition.”)
The other two words (ruah and pneuma) are used several hundred times. And understanding these words is crucial to understanding the Holy Spirit.Ruachmeans “breath, air; strength; wind; breeze; spirit; courage; temper; Spirit” (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson Publishers, Nashville, 1985, p. 240).
Of the 378 times it is used in the King James Version, it is translated “Spirit” or “spirit” 272 times, “wind” 92 times, “breath” 27 times and in other ways 27 times. Ruach is used similarly in most other Bible versions.
The concepts of “wind,” “breath” and “spirit” were all related in biblical thought and language. We see these intertwined in the use of ruach in Ezekiel 37, which describes a great multitude of people being resurrected and restored to physical life to understand God's truth. In this fascinating account, what is even more extraordinary is the way ruach expresses the connection of these ideas.EZEKIEL 37:1,4,5,7-11,14
EZEKIEL 37:1,4,5,7-11,14
“The hand of Jehovah proved to be upon me, so that he brought me forth in the spirit [ruach] of Jehovah and set me down in the midst of the valley plain, and it was full of bones. . . .And he went on to say to me: “Prophesy over these bones, and you must say to them, ‘O YOU dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah: “‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said to these bones: “Here I am bringing into YOU breath [ruach],and YOU must come to life.”. . . .And I prophesied just as I had been commanded. And a sound began to occur as soon as I prophesied, and here there was a rattling, and bones began to approach, bone to its bone. And I saw, and, look! upon them sinews themselves and flesh itself came up and skin began to be overlaid upon them above. But as regards breath [ruach], there was none in them. And he went on saying to me: “Prophesy to the wind [ruach]. Prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to the wind, [ruach] This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “From the four winds ruach] come in, O wind, [ruach] and blow upon these killed people, that they may come to life.”’” And I prophesied just as he had commanded me, and the breath [ruach] proceeded to come into them, and they began to live and stand upon their feet, a very, very great military force. And he went on to say to me: “Son of man, as regards these bones, they are the whole house of Israel. Here they are saying, ‘Our bones have become dry, and our hope has perished. We have been severed off to ourselves.’. . . .‘And I will put my spirit [ruach] in YOU, and YOU must come to life, and I will settle YOU upon YOUR soil; and YOU will have to know that I myself, Jehovah, have spoken and I have done [it],’ is the utterance of Jehovah””Here we see ruach translated three ways in one chapter: Spirit (referring to God's Spirit), breath and wind.
Now, let's apply your completely false logic, shall we? ? ?
Since we know that wind, and breath are innanimate, not persons and since that word Ruach means “wind” and “breath,” and since that same word applies to the “spirit” of God, well, look at that, I guess that means, based on your reasoning, that the holy spirit is not a person. Done.
SPIRIT IN GREEK
What is the meaning of pneuma? This word “primarily denotes 'the wind' (akin to pneo, 'to breathe, blow'); also 'breath'; then, especially 'the spirit,' which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful” . It is used 385 times in the King James Version and is usually translated “Spirit” or “spirit.”
Look at pneuma. We can see that Greek root in several modern English words such as pneumonia, which is an acute infection of the human respiratory system; pneumatic, referring to something powered by air pressure; and the science of pneumatics, which studies the properties of air and other gases. All of these have to do with air, breathing, wind or being powered by air. When you breathe, what is your body doing? It is creating wind going into and out of the body; breathing is simply creating wind on a small scale.
Pneuma is the equivalent of the Hebrew ruach. In Luke 4:18, where Christ read from Isaiah 61:1, the account substitutes pneuma for the Hebrew ruach in referring to “the Spirit [ruach/pneuma] of the Lord.” The Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (known commonly as the Old Testament) prepared in the third and second century B.C. and used in the time of the early Church, translated ruach as pneuma (Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament, AMG Publishers, Chattanooga, 1992, p. 1185).Let's pull these thoughts together for a moment.
All these meanings of spirit have something in common: They all refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. Such invisible force is capable of producing visible effects.
But, “no,” your reasoning is false. Just because spirit is used one way, does not mean that that way applies to every time that word is used.You're own attempt to prove this, at the same time disproves it:
Quote God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in SPIRIT and in truth. God is a Spirit. Is he not a person?
YES, GOD IS A PERSON. AND WE ARE TO WORSHIP HIM IN “spirit” and truth. Is the “spirit” with which we are to worship him a person? No.
Yes David I read your post and my response is a previous post!
David
Who is the prince of the power of the air!
He is a person isnt he!
There are metaphors of the Spirit for sure. But, this is not evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person!
Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.God is a Spirit. Is he not a person?
How about man? We are created in the image of God. We are Spirits that live in a body!
1 Cor 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Jesus the Word that is with God is a Spirit!
Is he a person?
You use your logic to explain away the truth that is before you so that you can fit the scriptures into your belief.
Believe the scriptures for what they say!
No let me as you this? You say that because there are so many scriptures that show the Spirit is not personal then he is not a person.
David. the Bible says “God is a consuming Fire”. the Bible says God is Love!
The Bible says God is light, and power, and many other metaphors. Is he not a person!
A force or power dosnt Speak, think, hear, comfort, testify, grieve, can be blasphemed, can be quenched, can lead and guide and in fact have all the attributes of God and not be a person.
Sorry! Not scriptural!
II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Quote David Then why did you cut off the bottom half of my post?
Is it because you dont want to look at those scriptures?
Just wondering?
Um, I guess because you said “David” and then quoted the scriptures I responded to.
Then, you wrote “NH” (Nick Hassen) and continued your conversation with him.
I will now go back and respond to them.
Please have the same courtesy and make a statement on the scriptures on the bottom of page 9, scriptures you have yet to acknowledge even exist.david
Quote Yes David I read your post and my response is a previous post!
So you responded to my post before I posted it.
Could you please tell me where, because I really don't remember you ever even acknowledging that those scriptures exist, much less trying to explain them. You did make some reference to metaphors, but I think you are mistaken in what that word means.david
Hi W,
You say
“God is a Spirit. Is he not a person?”
Make your mind up.
You tell us there are three persons in God.
Are there three persons
in a person?Quote So you responded to my post before I posted it.
Could you please tell me where, because I really don't remember you ever even acknowledging that those scriptures exist, much less trying to explain them. You did make some reference to metaphors, but I think you are mistaken in what that word means.david
David Im simply saying in response to your post I will post a previous post that I made that makes my point!
Quote Hi W,
You say
“God is a Spirit. Is he not a person?”
Make your mind up.
You tell us there are three persons in God.
Are there three persons
in a person?NH
Why dont you make some sence?
I am saying in reply to David that God is a Spirit and he is a person.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 13 2007,07:53) Hi Charity,
Force is inanimate and comprises only energy and can come from outside a person but the finger of God ever proceeds from God, encompassing every aspect of the nature of God himself, wisdom and power and knowledge and hope and love and salvation drawing us to Himself in His Son.
Who is worthy of receiving the holy spirit in power?Can you say anybody may choose when they may receive it?
The day they do whAT EVER???
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