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Sultan began this post by asking some questions:
Many people claim that the Holy Spirit is a person because attributes are given to it that can only be used to denote personality. I would like to challenge that notion and prove from scripture that this kind of thinking is not infallible, and that perhaps too much is being read into the text based on preconceived notions. Notice thes examples from scripture:
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:39-40)
Here Jesus says that “stones would cry out”. Are these stones persons?
For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (Isa. 55:12)
The mountains and hills will sing and the trees will clap their hands. Trees clap and have hands. Are these trees and mountains persons?
Wisdom has built her house,She has hewn out her seven pillars; (Prov. (9:1)
Wisdom builds a house. Is wisdom an actual person. Wisdom is actualized in Christ, but this text was written before Jesus came in the flesh, and the context of the passage is speaking of wisdom itself. My question is though is wisdom an actual person?
My point is if the Holy Spirit is a person because certain attributes are spoken of being possed by it. Then rocks, trees, mountains, etc must be persons too. If they are not then what rule of interpretation and exegesis is used to determine what's a person and what's not?
Then, pages later, after several people saying: “But the Bible says the holy spirit speaks, etc,” Sultan again states:
Here is my original post. Please address it in it's entirety. What is happening here is I am simply getting quotes, but no answers. Just because personall attributes are attributed to the Spirit, what right authority, exegetical, or interpretive process is used to define it as a person, and not the rocks, mountains etc. I don't believe there is any exclusive Biblical proof that the Holy Spirit is a person, and if we say because personal attributes are attributed to the Spirit, then why can we not apply this logic throughout all of scripture.Many times trinitarians simply run to their pre-printed responses to questions. I'm not looking for dry,wooden theological jargon. I'm looking for strong Biblical fact.
I could not have said it better. I asked 50 questions. I only got the other side of the coin, all the scriptures that seem to show personality on the part of God's holy spirit. But no answers to my questions. No answer to Sultan's questions. Why?
Quote Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,11:11)
According to the Hebrew understanding for thousands of years, throughtout the O.T., the “spirit” was a “thing,” not a person. Why would this suddenly change in the N.T.? The “personification” of the “spirit” is a product of the church, not the Bible….No Hebrew or Jew ever considered (nor do they consider it today) the spirit to be a “person.”My point exactly. You noticed that this topic has remained neglected. Seems to me that when a logical arguement is given, their is not much debate.
Why is everyone silent on Sultan's questions? Or my questions? Why is no attempt even made?
I have never understood this argument:
Is 1:18 stated, on Mar 26, a few pages back:
Quote If God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, wouldn't that, by default, make the Holy Spirit….well…..God? If man is flesh and animals are flesh, wouldn't that by default, make man an animal?
If “Isaiah 1:18” is a trinitarian and Hitler is a trinitarin, wouldn't that by default, make Isaiah 1:19, Hitler?
I don't get it. The reasoning isn't reasonable, or logical. But I've heard this argument before. Can someone explain why this is even thought to be an argument?I see Sultan raised the same point against that very odd line of reasoning, saying:
Quote And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,( Eph. 1-2) Using your logic means that all spirits are God. Here in Ephesians a spirit is mentioned, since God is spirit then the spirit in Ephesians must be God.
Because they dont have an answer. I know I wouldnt have an answer if I was them. Simply looking at it from their perspective, which I have before, most Christians start out trinitarians.
Just being honest I would realize that I would have to approach my apology on the spirit being a person through a different avenue, because your line of reasoning presents a dead end for them.
Both sides are in a deadlock.
It boils down to having a belief and viewing scripture from your priori position.
One of my goals is to challenge christians to see what the 2nd century christians believed on these types of issues. They bring so much clarity.
Example: Is the head covering found in 1 Cor. 11 a cloth or is it simply talking about hair length? If you look at the early church writings you can find that all the churches of God had their women wear literal prayer cloths. It's that simple and extremely helpful for understanding many things.
Quote Sultan began this post by asking some questions: Many people claim that the Holy Spirit is a person because attributes are given to it that can only be used to denote personality. I would like to challenge that notion and prove from scripture that this kind of thinking is not infallible, and that perhaps too much is being read into the text based on preconceived notions. Notice thes examples from scripture:
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:39-40)
Here Jesus says that “stones would cry out”. Are these stones persons?
David
Poor example!
Do you have any scriptural evidence that a stone spoke!
No Jesus is making a point, that if Gods people dont praise him then stones could cry out.
He is not making a doctrinal statement!
Think on these scriptures. Examine them closely and then prove to me where these scriptures do not show the Holy Spirit as being personal.
Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN!
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.NH
So the Son sends the Father? Oh really?
Joh 16:7
But I TELL YOU THE TRUTH: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU.So if the Holy Spirit is the Father who does the Father hear to know what to speak?
Joh 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL TRUTH. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things SOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, he SHALL SPEAK. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall shew it to you.So the Father intercedes to himself?
Rom 8:26
Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF ASKETH FOR US WITH UNSPEAKABLE GROANINGS,What does another comforter mean?
Is he ANOTHER Father?
Joh 14:16
And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you ANOTHER PARACLETE, that he may abide with you for ever:Joh 15:26
But when the PARACLETE COMETH, whom I WILL SEND you FROM THE FATHER, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth FROM THE FATHER, he shall give testimony of me.Blessings
Quote And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,( Eph. 1-2) Using your logic means that all spirits are God. Here in Ephesians a spirit is mentioned, since God is spirit then the spirit in Ephesians must be God.
David
Who is the prince of the power of the air!
He is a person isnt he!
There are metaphors of the Spirit for sure. But, this is not evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a person!
Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God is a Spirit. Is he not a person?How about man? We are created in the image of God. We are Spirits that live in a body!
1 Cor 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.Jesus the Word that is with God is a Spirit!
Is he a person?
You use your logic to explain away the truth that is before you so that you can fit the scriptures into your belief.
Believe the scriptures for what they say!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 12 2007,16:35) Quote Sultan began this post by asking some questions: Many people claim that the Holy Spirit is a person because attributes are given to it that can only be used to denote personality. I would like to challenge that notion and prove from scripture that this kind of thinking is not infallible, and that perhaps too much is being read into the text based on preconceived notions. Notice thes examples from scripture:
And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:39-40)
Here Jesus says that “stones would cry out”. Are these stones persons?
David
Poor example!
Do you have any scriptural evidence that a stone spoke!
No Jesus is making a point, that if Gods people dont praise him then stones could cry out.
He is not making a doctrinal statement!
Think on these scriptures. Examine them closely and then prove to me where these scriptures do not show the Holy Spirit as being personal.
Here are those FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES AGAIN!
1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.NH
So the Son sends the Father? Oh really?
Joh 16:7
But I TELL YOU THE TRUTH: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU.So if the Holy Spirit is the Father who does the Father hear to know what to speak?
Joh 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL TRUTH. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things SOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, he SHALL SPEAK. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall shew it to you.So the Father intercedes to himself?
Rom 8:26
Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: BUT THE SPIRIT HIMSELF ASKETH FOR US WITH UNSPEAKABLE GROANINGS,What does another comforter mean?
Is he ANOTHER Father?
Joh 14:16
And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you ANOTHER PARACLETE, that he may abide with you for ever:Joh 15:26
But when the PARACLETE COMETH, whom I WILL SEND you FROM THE FATHER, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth FROM THE FATHER, he shall give testimony of me.Blessings
Hi W,
We are people of the bible.
Thus we can look at scripture and draw conclusions and have opinions.
But we cannot state those opinions as FACT unless we can find it written and witnessed.
Because you do not grasp the extraordinary abilities of God, having diminished Him to His Son and confused them, you cannot grasp the amazing abilities of His Spirit.
On your own aegis you have decided and taught the Spirit is another person.
Show wisdom and discernment and abhor foolish greek logic.Where were you 2000 years ago?
Seed inside of a Jew etc?
Did those that came out of the graves have seed within them?
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.Eze 37:18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2007,08:54) I'm not sure how these things really relate to the question of whether the holy spirit is a person or not, but here goes: “For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: YE SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY”? (Lev. 11:45)
Jehovah God is holy and demands that those who render him sacred service be holy. They must pursue holiness and remain physically and spiritually clean.2 CORINTHIANS 7:1
“Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.”1 PETER 1:15-16
“but, in accord with the Holy One who called YOU, do YOU also become holy yourselves in all [YOUR] conduct, because it is written: “YOU must be holy, because I am holy.””And:
What does Hebrews 1:3 mean when it states that: Jesus is “THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD'S PERSON”?
It's interesting that some have said that I say the holy spirit isn't a person and they say the Bible doesn't say God is a person either. Some Bible's do say God is a person, such as this Bible. Anyway, I take it you're asking me what I think of Jesus being the express “image of God's person,” or the exact “representation of his very being,” or the “image imprinted by his substance.”
First, let's add some similar scriptures:
2 CORINTHIANS 4:4
“among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”COLOSSIANS 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;”Here's an interesting scripture:
“Let us make man in OUR image,”When on earth as a perfect man, he reflected his Father’s qualities and personality to the fullest extent possible within human limitations, so he could say that “he that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (Joh 14:9; 5:17, 19, 30, 36; 8:28, 38, 42)
This likeness, however, was certainly heightened at the time of Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life and his being granted “all authority . . . in heaven and on the earth” by his Father, Jehovah God. (1Pe 3:18; Mt 28:18) Since God then exalted Jesus to “a superior position,” God’s Son now reflected his Father’s glory to an even greater degree than he had before leaving the heavens to come to earth. (Php 2:9; Heb 2:9)
He is now “the exact representation of [God’s] very being.”—Heb 1:2-4.
It's also interesting to note:
All anointed members of the Christian congregation are foreordained by God to be “patterned after the image of his Son.” (Ro 8:29)
Having borne the earthly “image of the one made of dust [Adam],” as spirit creatures they thereafter bear “the image of the heavenly one [the last Adam, Christ Jesus].” (1Co 15:45, 49) During their earthly life, they are privileged to “reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah” that shines to them from God’s Son, being progressively transformed into the image conveyed by that glory-reflecting Son. (2Co 3:18; 4:6) God thereby creates in them a new personality, one that is a reflection, or image, of his own divine qualities.—Eph 4:24; Col 3:10.Anyway, back to the holy spirit. I didn't even know this thread existed. I have some reading to do.
david
Hi David:Thanks for answering my questions. I believe that we can conclude from your answers that the Holy Spirit is God's person. Not a third person as some teach, but God's person revealed to us by the life that He lives, and Jesus became the express image of his personality through perfect obedience to God's Word.
My purpose for asking the questions was to see if we could agree on this conclusion. I believe that we do, based on your answers to the questons.
“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead: so they are without excuse:”. (Rom. 1:20)
Again, Thanks, and God Bless
Quote (david @ Jan. 12 2007,08:37) Nick, do you still think “God” is the “name” of the holy spirit?
Hi david,
The Spirit of God is the spirit of God, a manifestation of God himself.
Thomas understood
” My Lord AND my God”Hi everyone
I came across a site that had what I consider to be the best explanation for me on the Holy Spirit, and the 3 in 1 belief.
Go to…Living Hope International Ministries. Under Resources you'll find the artical, if you choose to check it out.
God bless.Quote Hi david,
The Spirit of God is the spirit of God, a manifestation of God himself.
Thomas understood
” My Lord AND my God”Nick, I understand that the spirit of God is the spirit of God
And I understand that God is God.
And I understand that you are Nick.
And I understand that your finger is Nick.
Wrong. It is “of” Nick.
The finger of Nick.
Not Nick.
Your finger is “of” you, just as God’s holy spirit is the spirit “of” God.
Not God.
Nick, there are literally more than a thousand times the Father is called God. Where are we told that the holy spirit’s “name” is God?
Before you said that the holy spirit’s name is “God.”
Nick, “God” isn’t even a name. Most everyone on this site understands that.
You say: Thomas understood.
Understood what Nick? That the holy spirit is God? I don’t see the holy spirit mentioned in that verse, or that it’s name is God. Please start using scriptures to back up your beliefs.Has anyone answered this question yet?
MARK 13:32–WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS?
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.” (Mark 13:32)
Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
If the holy spirit is a separate and distinct being with personality, then Jesus either did not know this or was very inconsistent in giving “Him” proper due.
If the holy spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would he not also have to know what the Father knows? Jesus’ statement, then, would not have been true. If the holy spirit is a person and God, then Jesus statement is a lie.
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?Hi david,
The Father was in him as Spirit.
But the Father did not share this information with his Son.Hi Nick. You write:
Quote Hi david,
The Father was in him as Spirit.
But the Father did not share this information with his Son.So then, in answer to my questions above:
If the holy spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would he not also have to know what the Father knows? Jesus’ statement, then, would not have been true. If the holy spirit is a person and God, then Jesus statement is a lie.
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?your answers would be….
Quote Excellent description Nick. I wish they would serisously search for themselves to see if this view is true. This is the very same view the early church fathers held. NH dosnt even quote a single scripture!
What of these scriptures?
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU, full of spirit and wisdom, that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith. . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land . . . “MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)
HOLY SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS, AND SO DO BLOOD AND WATER
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.” (How can blood and water be in agreement with each other if they are not persons? I guess that’s more personification.)Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things. You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality. Doesn't it?
The fact that the holy spirit is spoken of possessively also indicates a lack of personality. Doesn't it?
All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29Then, there are the MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 2:33; 10:38,45; 1 Timothy 4:14).
The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.”
It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4)
It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19)
People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13)
The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25)
The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person, are they? None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person. Would they?
david
Anyone?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 13 2007,06:23) Quote Excellent description Nick. I wish they would serisously search for themselves to see if this view is true. This is the very same view the early church fathers held. NH dosnt even quote a single scripture!
Neither does the Athanasian creed you follow.The point was it summed up his interpretation nicely.
Quote One of my goals is to challenge christians to see what the 2nd century christians believed on these types of issues. They bring so much clarity. 94, I know. I have done this a lot. It is always thrown out by them as irrelivent.
Who cares that the Jews have never viewed the holy spirit as a person? Who cares if the early Christians never viewed the holy spirit as a person? They didn't know. But by the 3d or 4th century, the TRUTH was figured out. Yes. That's it.
No one ever addresses this. As you say, they can't, because it is devastating to what they believe.
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