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Hi CB,
It is certainly very flawed.
But you have offered nothing of value either.
You have fabricated your own unique and bizarre doctrine.
Are you known by the master who demands we abide in his teachings?Hi david,
From the JW view of the Holy Spirit of God.“The Holy Spirit is an inanimate force or power”. (Watchtower, 6/1/52, p 24; Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp 406, 407)
This is the dangerous and contemptuous view of God's own Spirit I spoke of.
The deaths of the two believers in Acts 5 for lying to God as Spirit should be sufficient warning against such trivialisation of God's Spirit.
If the JW view was correct and the Spirit is inanimate then the LIVING God has no life as it is the Spirit of life[rom8]
If the Spirit is just the power of God why was Christ anointed with the Holy Spirit AND power[Acts 10]?Be wise and fear God.
Quote (david @ Jan. 10 2007,05:34) 94, I'd rather discuss your questions in a more appropriate thread. If you imply that these indicate God is a trinity, perhaps the trinity thread.
It's just that I really am determined to focus on the holy spirit right now, and whether or not it makes up part of a triune God, whether it is to be worshipped as God, according to scripture.
If you copy and paste these questions to another thread, I will be happy to answer them. (I just don't want to sidetrack this discusssion.)
Hi David:I am asking relative to the Holy Spirit. I do not believe in the doctrine of “Trinity”.
And so, I'm interested in your thoughts relative to those scriptures.
Thanks
-The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
–The Bible gives no indication that the holy spirt was worshiped.
–The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures give no hint even that the holy spirit is a person, much less that it is worshiped as God. (They viewed God’s spirit as something God possesses.)
–The holy spirit is never portrayed as a person, sitting on a throne for example…it's shown to be God's finger, his hand, a dove, fire, etc, etc….but never shown or pictured as a distinct person.
–The holy spirit is left out on a whole lot–knowing what God knows–being there pictured with Jesus and his Father in all the visions, etc.
–It is without question given a secondary position in scripture. (John 17:3) All the greetings of the apostle Paul's letters, not to mention James, Peter and John open by saying something like: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) They seem to be unfamiliar with the third part of the trinity. Why?
–The holy spirit has no distinctive name unlike Jehovah and Jesus and everyone else.
–The holy spirit is God's holy spirit, “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” It is something God possesses.
–The capital letters in your Bible that show Holy Spirit mean absolutely nothing. The definite article “the” has also been added about 100 times to make it appear more so to be a person. The greek word for spirit is neuter and most Greek manuscripts employ “it” with reference to the holy spirit.
–The holy spirit is used in parallel with very impersonal things–water and fire for example. Another example: “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” (2 cor 6:4-6)
–You can be filled with holy spirit just as you can be filled with wisdom and faith or joy. Lumping the holy spirit in with impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
–The holy spirit being part of a trinity was not really an established belief until a few hundred years after Christ, coincidentally, many other apostasy like changes had occurred around this time.
–It's quite often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person. It is referred to as a “gift.” It is said to be divisible and able to be distributed.
It can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. Holy spirit was ‘given,’ and ‘poured out upon,’ It can be quenched. People can drink of it. The holy spirit also renews us and must be stirred up within us. Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats.
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it.
–In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father. He doesn't do this of the holy spirit.Hi david,
2Sam 6
” 3They placed the ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it from the house of Abinadab which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were leading the new cart.4So they brought it with the ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Ahio was walking ahead of the ark.
5Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the LORD with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood, and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets and cymbals.
6But when they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
7And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God”
Was the Ark more Holy than the contents that made it Holy?
God's Spirit is holy.
Fear God.Show respect and do not speak of the Spirit of God as being like your annoying computer or as some sort of trivial thing.
Quote If the Spirit is just the power of God why was Christ anointed with the Holy Spirit AND power[Acts 10]?
You are right in this. The references you quoted were from 85 and 1952. “Power” is of course not right. We were wrong in this.There are several refernces. But here's two:
“It would not be quite accurate to say that the holy spirit is God’s power.”–Awake, 1999, Jan 8, p 26
“Distinguished from “power.” Ru′ach and pneu′ma, therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4) It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., ko′ach; Gr., dy′na·mis). Ru′ach and pneu′ma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35; Ac 10:38) “Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something. “Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exerted on persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures.”–Insight on the Scritpures, Vol 2, p 1020.
Quote This is the dangerous and contemptuous view of God's own Spirit I spoke of. Quote
The deaths of the two believers in Acts 5 for lying to God as Spirit should be sufficient warning against such trivialisation of God's Spirit.I'm sorry, but I don't see this as trivialisation any more than I do by saying Jesus isn't God almighty. Many would argue that you trivialize Jesus. But if what you say is in accord with scripture, isn't this what is important?
Quote Show respect and do not speak of the Spirit of God as being like your annoying computer or as some sort of trivial thing.
I was making a comparison to show that inanimate things can be spoken of in personal terms. I was of course not directly comparing the two, as you know Nick.You aren't sugggesting that it is wrong to compare God's holy spirit to inanimate things, are you NICK?
Because I have a list of scriptures for you and you can take it up with those who were inspired by holy spirit to pen similar words.I really don't see why you mention this:
Quote 7And the anger of the LORD burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence; and he died there by the ark of God”
Do you know why Ussah was struck down?In the “trinity thread, NICK WROTE:
“Hi david,
The Holy Spirit has a name.
God[YHWH].I then asked:
“I'd like you to show me why you believe: the holy spirit is named “God” when God isn't actually even a name? ? ?”I then repeated this question on the next page.
Then, later I asked again:
“NIck, when you come back, I'd really like an answer to my question on the top of this page, page 514.”I have given up on him answering me in that thread. I think the question belongs here anyway.
Nick states that the holy spirit has a name and that name is “God [YHWH]”
I attempted to explain to him that “God” isn't a name, and asked him why he believes this. I would really like answers to these questions, NICK.Thankyou.
david
Let's look at one use of the holy spirit, as spoken of in scripture:
USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things. You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU,, full of spirit and wisdom that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a manfull of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power and he went through the land . . . “
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)
HOLY SPIRIT BEARING WITNESS, AND SO DO BLOOD AND WATER
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement ” (How can blood and water be in agreement with each other if they are not persons? I guess that’s more personification.)Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
Nick, I don't think it is trivilization to speak of the holy spirit in the way that the writers of the Bible did. In fact, I think that is the right thing to do.
There are no scriptures Nick, that say that “God” is the holy spirit's name. To suggest so is ridiculous, if for no other reason, that “God” is a title, and not a name. Plus, such a scripture doesn't exist.
It is not trivilazation to speak of the holy spirit as the early Chritians did.
God's holy spirit demands respect. But that doesn't mean it's a person. Nowhere have I said to disrespect God's holy spirit.
If Wisdom and Faith and Love are not persons, saying so is not trivilisation, it is the truth. God's wisdom demands our respect. But that doesn't make God's wisdom God. And it doesn't make God's finger “God.”Hi david,
God in heaven manifests in His creation as His Spirit.
God was in heaven when Jesus walked the earth.Matt 6
” 9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”But God was in Christ.
2Cor 5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.and God can be in us.
Eph 3.19
” 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.Phil 2
” 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”How?
By the Spirit of God.
2Cor 3
“17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. “And together we form a building that houses God as Spirit on earth.
Eph 2
” 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
The Spirit of God unites us in Christ with God Himself and God manifests Himself in us by His Spirit.
1Cor 15
” 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”That is the plan of God in heaven.
Nick, I'm trying to understand you. I'm trying to have a conversation with you. But you keep ignoring my questions:
Quote In the “trinity thread, NICK WROTE: “Hi david,
The Holy Spirit has a name.
God[YHWH].I then asked:
“I'd like you to show me why you believe: the holy spirit is named “God” when God isn't actually even a name? ? ?”Nick, I don't disagree with anything you said in your post above this one. But I also don't think that it proves that the holy spirit is God, or named God, as you said before.
It is God's finger, as you said before. Your finger isn't named Nick. You are named Nick. Your finger is called your finger, just as in scripture, God's holy spirit is called Gods holy spirit, or the spirit of God, etc.
It's not called God.
Much like the trinity belief with Jesus and Jehovah, there is really only one or two scriptures here that people try to make fit their beliefs. Yet, no scripture says: the holy spirit is God plainly.Does the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
Expressions such as this occur 1000 times with reference to Jehovah.
Does the expression: “the holy spirit your God” occur 455 times as it does of “Jehovah your God”?Why is it that no scripture says clearly and plainly that the holy spirit is God?
It is because it is clear and plain that God’s holy spirit, is not God.Nick, what are your thoughts on the way the holy spirit is spoken of in the Bible as a whole?
Quote Posted: Jan. 11 2007,06:49 EDIT QUOTE
Let's look at one use of the holy spirit, as spoken of in scripture:USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
Notice the way the holy spirit is used in association with other impersonal things. You can be filled with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith or joy and at 2 Corinthians 6:6, we see that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities.
2 CORINTHIANS 6:6
“by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit by love free from hypocrisy,”
ACTS 13:52
“And the disciples continued to be filled with joy and holy spirit.” (Compare Rom 14:17)
ACTS 6:3
“So, brothers, search out for yourselves seven certified men from among YOU,, full of spirit and wisdom that we may appoint them over this necessary business;”
ACTS 6:5
“And the thing spoken was pleasing to the whole multitude, and they selected Stephen, a manfull of faith and holy spirit. . . ”
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
“because the good news we preach did not turn up among YOU with speech alone but also with power and with holy spirit and strong conviction, just as YOU know what sort of men we became to YOU for YOUR sakes;”
ACTS 11:24
“for he was a good man and full of holy spirit and of faith . . ..”
ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naźa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power and he went through the land . . . “
MATTHEW 3:11
“I, for my part, baptize YOU with water because of YOUR repentance; but the one coming after me is stronger than I am, whose sandals I am not fit to take off. That one will baptize YOU people with holy spirit and with fire.” (Compare Luke 3:16, Mark 1:8)
HOLY SPIRIT BEARING WITNESS, AND SO DO BLOOD AND WATER
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
1 JOHN 5:6-8
“This is he that came by means of water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. And the spirit is that which is bearing witness, because the spirit is the truth. For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement ” (How can blood and water be in agreement with each other if they are not persons? I guess that’s more personification.)Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
Nick, I don't think it is trivilization to speak of the holy spirit in the way that the writers of the Bible did. In fact, I think that is the right thing to do.
There are no scriptures Nick, that say that “God” is the holy spirit's name. To suggest so is ridiculous, if for no other reason, that “God” is a title, and not a name. Plus, such a scripture doesn't exist.
It is not trivilazation to speak of the holy spirit as the early Chritians did.
God's holy spirit demands respect. But that doesn't mean it's a person. Nowhere have I said to disrespect God's holy spirit.
If Wisdom and Faith and Love are not persons, saying so is not trivilisation, it is the truth. God's wisdom demands our respect. But that doesn't make God's wisdom God. And it doesn't make God's finger “God.”
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Profile PM MAILHi david,
The Spirit is the Spirit of God.Men get confused by the artificial way men speak of the amazing Spirit as though God and His own living spirit were separate beings but the Spirit proceeds from God to do the works of God.
If you stood deliberately on my toe then you could be arrested for assaulting ME.
Hi David,
God names Himself as “I am who am”.
That is not a personal name but a description of the LIVING GOD.
Men have added vowels for various reasons but that also does not make a personal name either.
He is.And His Spirit is His spirit.
If the King of kings reached out his hand to you would you bow and kiss it as being him?
I agree Nick,
And so does Justin Martyr in his second apology
But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given. For by whatever name He be called, He has as His elder the person who gives Him the name. But these words Father, and God, and Creator, and Lord, ant Master, are not names, but appellations derived from His good deeds and functions. And Hi; Son, who alone is properly called Son, the Word who also was with Him and was begotten before the works. when at first He created and arranged all things by Him, is called Christ, in reference to His being anointed and God's ordering all thing; through Him; this name itself also containing an unknown significance; as also the appellation “God” is not a name, but an opinion implanted in the nature of men of a thing that can hardly be explained. But “Jesus,” His name as man and Saviour, has also significance. For He was made man also, as we before said, having been conceived according to the will of God the Father, for the sake of believing men, and for the destruction of the demons.
Quote Hi W,
Who are you trying to convince in your unscriptural mission to draw men to worship the Son rather than God? Would it not be better to obey the Son and tell men to worship God before you have to meet him and explain your actions?David
Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Hi W,
Yes but you do not tell men to worship God but rather the Son of God. Why?
Did he tell us to teach this or who is your master in this matter?Quote Hi W,
Yes but you do not tell men to worship God but rather the Son of God. Why?
Did he tell us to teach this or who is your master in this matter?Because the Son of God and God are One!
Can you see a difference?
Rev 5:
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
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