The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Quote

Here's some more

JEHOVAH (God) The Holy Spirit

Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

CULTBUSTER, DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHY YOU ARE POSTING THIS?

Notice Heb 3:7:

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear HIS voice,
Had the holy spirit said: Today, if you hear MY voice, then you may have something.

And, since, as shown in my last post to you, which you may not have read, I quoted many other scriptures which relate. Here's another:

2 TIMOTHY 3:16
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,”

“inspired of God” Lit., “God-breathed.” Gr., The·o′pneu·stos; Lat., Di·vi′ni·tus in·spi·ra′ta; J17(Heb.), beru′ach ’Elo·him′, “by God’s spirit.”

Scripture is inspired of God, through his holy spirit.

After Jesus showed them the wounds in his hands and side, verifying that He had indeed been raised from the dead, John records that Jesus said: “'Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit [pneuma]' ” (John 20:21-22).
Earlier He had told them He would send them a “helper” and a “comforter,” the Holy Spirit. Here He repeats that promise. He also demonstrates the nature of the Spirit that He would send: It would be like a breath, like a wind, something they couldn't see, but they would be influenced by its power.
And this is indeed what happened.

As New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1965: Spirit of God says:
“Spirit of God” is used in the OT to signify “God's breath” (Jb 33.4).
(Vol 13, p574-576)

“Holy Spirit. Judaism. In Tanach (Jewish scripture), ruah ha-Qodesh/Kodesh is the breath of God, and thus the effective and inspiring consequence of God at work in his creation. The Holy Spirit is also known as ruah Elohim and ruah Adonai, indicating that no separate 'person' in relation to God is intended, but rather that this is the way in which God enables humans to do or say particular things.”
–http://www.religion-encyclopedia.com/H/holy_spirit.htm

The “breath” of God and the “spirit” of God are synonymous terms (Job 4:9; Ps. 33:6; Ps. 104:29 and 30; John 3:8; Job 27:3). It is as inconceivable that the breath of God could be a person distinct from God as that the breath of a human could be a person distinct from a human. It is especially absurd to speak of one self-existent and eternal person as “the breath” of another such person.

All scripture is God breathed, or inspired of God. Breath is something that is synonomous with God's holy spirit. Does this help us to understand?
We're told that the God used the holy spirit to speak through people.
Does that make sense?

January 10, 2007 at 2:20 am#36442

Participant

Quote

JEHOVAH (God) The Holy Spirit

Compare
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

With
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Again, exactly the same thing. I personally think if we got rid of archaic language, this would make the text more clear. People no longer speak old english.
Anyway, it says:
Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

Again, was the “person” of the holy spirit speaking here? Did we hear his voice? Or does it say that the holy spirit spoke THROUGH Isaiah the prophet?

All scripture is God breathed. God's breath is synonmous with his holy spirit in scriptures. God used the holy spirit to speak through people.

Whereas some scriptures seem to show the holy spirit speaking directly, others such as this (thankyou for bringing it up again) make it clear that it's not the voice of the holy spirit, but God uses his spirit to speak through others.
And this is how we have God's thoughts and not those of men, contained in the inspired word of God.

david

January 10, 2007 at 2:24 am#36443

Participant

I think someone is part of a cult if they are blind…blind to obvious truths, unreasonable, someone who can't think, reason, etc.

CULT BUSTER, my faith that you are not in some sort of cult yourself would be helped if you could actually discuss my points, answer at least some of my questions. I am addressing your points.

So far, you have shown no ability to defend your beliefs, only to put scriptures down. You don't really even reason on them most of the time.

ACTS 17:2-3
“So according to Paul’s custom he went inside to them, and for three sabbaths he REASONED WITH THEM from the scriptures, EXPLAINING and proving by references that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead….”

January 10, 2007 at 3:46 am#36450

942767

Participant

Hi David:

What does it mean to you when Hebrews 1:3 states about Jesus: “Who being the brightness of his glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON…”. Or When God speaking to the Nation of Israel states: “For I am the Lord that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy”. (Lev. 11:45)

God Bless

January 10, 2007 at 5:34 am#36454

Participant

94, I'd rather discuss your questions in a more appropriate thread. If you imply that these indicate God is a trinity, perhaps the trinity thread.
It's just that I really am determined to focus on the holy spirit right now, and whether or not it makes up part of a triune God, whether it is to be worshipped as God, according to scripture.
If you copy and paste these questions to another thread, I will be happy to answer them. (I just don't want to sidetrack this discusssion.)

January 10, 2007 at 5:48 am#36457

Participant

ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

To all of the Arian viewers. The Spirit of the Lord God is one! For God is one with his Spirit.

We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit, being used in speaking of God dwelling in our Body the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Holy Spirit….
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These words are interchageable and mean one thing,

God dwells in us.

The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit divinely and unequelly and wonderfully joined together as ONE!

Whether it is speaking of the Father who walks in us or the Son or the Holy Spirit,

God dwells in us!

God = Father, Son And Holy Ghost!

This is scriptural!

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Col 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

January 10, 2007 at 5:54 am#36458

NickHassan

Participant

Hi W,
The question remains as to whether Jesus ever really was a Son of God for you ,or just another eternal expression of God, a so-called Son.
Were they always of the one Spirit of God as a single being? If so why would God anoint Jesus with the Spirit?
You need to believe both in God and the Son according to Jesus.
Jesus emphasised their unity and love. Of what relevance is unity and love if they were always one being?

January 10, 2007 at 6:13 am#36467

Participant

I would ask you, what is your definition of a person?

Because if Gods Spirit is not a person, then we violate the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit :
·Speaks, Acts 13:2
·Hears, John 16:13
·Teaches, John 14:26
·Intercedes, Rom 8:26
·Testifies, John 15:26
·Guides, John 16:13
·Commands, Acts 16:6,7
·Appoints, Acts 20:28
·Leads, Rom 8:14
·Reproves, and convicts of sin, John 16:8
·Seals, God's promise in believers' hearts, Eph 1:13,14
·shapes the individual's and community's life to Christ's, Rom 8:1-17

In Scripture, the Holy Spirit has intellect, emotions, and will, and can be grieved.

This is all stuff that can't be true of an emanation or a (or even 'The' Force).
That is usually how we experience the Spirit and know of the Spirit's presence, but that is not what the Spirit is .

“”Spell this out in capital letters:
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON.

He is not enthusiasm. He is not courage. He is not energy. He is not the personification of all good qualities. He has individuality. He has will and intelligence.

He has hearing. He has knowledge and sympathy and ability to love and see and think. He can hear, speak, desire, grieve and rejoice. He is a Person.”

If you don’t believe this then you deny the words of our Lord!
Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as a person.

John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Notice he says “seeth him not, neither knoweth him”.

The word for “ him” is autos {ow-tos'}
1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
2) he, she, it
3) the same

It was translated AV – him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121.

That’s over 3000 times in the New Testament “autos” is used referring to a person.

Believe the scriptures my friend and not some made up concept of what the Spirit of God is.

The teachings of man concerning the Holy Spirit being some power or force of God is false, and it comes
because they cannot explain the distinction between The Holy Spirit and God the Father who is a Spirit
and Jesus who’s Spirit dwells in us.

It offends and disgraces the Father to speak of his Spirit as merely some power or force.

Mk 13:11
But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lk 12:12
For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Acts 9:31
Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

Acts 13:
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

I Cor 2:
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Please my friend. Prayerfully read and consider that the above scriptures which are only a few is irrefutable evidence that the Spirit of God is personal.

Blessings

January 10, 2007 at 6:18 am#36473

NickHassan

Participant

Hi W,
Can you offer anything but presumptive reasonings here?
Scriptural statements carry more weight.

January 10, 2007 at 6:33 am#36482

Participant

WJ just reposted something he posted on Jan 8th.

So, I guess I'll repost my responces to that post:

Quote

Quote
ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

WJ, why does the holy spirit seem to be often compared or paralleled to impersonal things, such as water? Can we drink a person? Can we be baptized in a person? Can a person be poured out on us? Can a person fill us?
I don't think this scripture helps you.

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Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

WJ, please explain to my why and how these verses explain that the holy spirit is God or worshipped as God or part of a trinity.

Quote
Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

could it be that God dwells in people by means of his holy spirit?

Please go back and read what I wrote and comment.

January 10, 2007 at 6:40 am#36484

Participant

Quote

Quote
ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Quote
Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

WJ, please explain to my why and how these verses explain that the holy spirit is God or worshipped as God or part of a trinity.

Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

could it be that God dwells in people by means of his holy spirit?

Please go back and read what I wrote and comment.

David

II Cor 3:
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jn 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But you will not believe these words!

January 10, 2007 at 6:41 am#36485

Participant

Quote

The Holy Spirit :
· Speaks, Acts 13:2
· Hears, John 16:13
· Teaches, John 14:26
· Intercedes, Rom 8:26
· Testifies, John 15:26
· Guides, John 16:13
· Commands, Acts 16:6,7
· Appoints, Acts 20:28
· Leads, Rom 8:14
· Reproves, and convicts of sin, John 16:8
· Seals, God's promise in believers' hearts, Eph 1:13,14
· shapes the individual's and community's life to Christ's, Rom 8:1-17

Yes, we know the holy spirit is personified. Thank you for reminding us of this again.
But of course, we know, that since it is also spoken of in a very impersonal way, that these accounts above, MUST BE PERSONIFICATION. THERE IS NO OTHER POSSIBILITY!

HERE'S WHY:

USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
The Bible states that Stephen was “full of faith and holy spirit.” (Acts 6:5)
And the apostle Paul recommended himself as God’s minister “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.”—2 Corinthians 6:4-6.
You can be “filled” with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith (Ac 6:3, 5; 11:24) or joy (Ac 13:52) and we see above that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6.
Notice too the way it is used in association with other impersonal things:
MARK 1:8
“I baptized YOU with water, but he will baptize YOU with holy spirit.”” (Compare Mt 3:11)
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.

Then too, there's:

THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

So, yes, there are scriptures which speak of the holy spirit in a personal way, but there are also scriptures which speak of the holy spirit in a very impersonal way.
Since we know and understand the univerally accepted use of personification, this isn't a contradiction. It's personification.
To believe what you do, we have a problem.

We should also add:
PERSONIFICATION DOES NOT PROVE PERSONALITY

Go back and look at the very first two questions I asked: “Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?
Today, we speak of the Bible in a similar manner when we say that it says something or teaches a doctrine. We can say that the Bible helps, comforts, guides us, etc. In using such expressions, we do not mean that the Bible is a person, do we? Do we??? Since scriptures speak of the holy spirit in an impersonal way, these other expressions must be a figure of speech– personification. Personification is a universally understood use of language.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. All three are said to BE witnesses. But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, i
n effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3)
Notice what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman, who believes in the trinity acknowledges in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.” (1982 Edition)

MATH–SPOKEN OF PERSONALLY AND IMPERSONALLY–WHAT CAN WE DETERMINE?
If statement #1 allows for possibilities:
“a” or
“b”

And statment # 2 allows for only possibility:
“b”

Then the answer is “b”
It does no good to keep repeating option “a.”
Logic and reason demand that the holy spirit is not a person, at least, based on all that the scripture say.

January 10, 2007 at 6:42 am#36487

Participant

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David

Jn 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I believe these words. I do wonder what they have to do with you believing God's holy spirit is to be worshipped as part of the triune God.

January 10, 2007 at 6:45 am#36488

Participant

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believe these words. I do wonder what they have to do with you believing God's holy spirit is to be worshipped as part of the triune God.

David

Is God a Spirit. Are we to worship him? Is his Holy Spirit part of him?

January 10, 2007 at 7:06 am#36496

Participant

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David

Is God a Spirit. Are we to worship him? Is his Holy Spirit part of him?

First, is God a spirit?

JOHN 4:24
“God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.””

Yup, scripture seems to say “God is a spirt.” So, ya.

And, while I'm not going to go find the scriptures, obvioulsy, yes, we are to “worship him.”

Quote

Is his Holy Spirit part of him?

If you were a great king, worthy of honour, dignity, greatness, etc, and you had the ability to do great things, with the force you have, would you want people to hold that strength of yours as equal to yourself?
Would you want people worshipping your hand or the method you accomplish your will, as yourself?
I know where you're going with this. The thing is, “God is love.” (John) Is love a part of God? The Bible actually says: God IS love, not just a part of him. Is wisdom a part of God? It is something he possess, for certain. Yet, we do not worship these things. The wisdom “of” God, is just that, it is “of” God. The spirit “of” God is not God the spirit.

Please don't confuse them. The word spirit is used in a number of manners. You sometimes seem like you're trying to mislead by making it seem like there's only one meaning of that word.
Look at John 4:24 above. Two different uses of that word in that scripture.

Something else, on Matt 28: 19,20:

While some translations (KJ, AS) follow the Greek text at Matthew 10:41 literally and say that the one that that “receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man’s reward,” more modern translations say, , “receives a prophet because he is a prophet” and “receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man,” or similar. (RS, AT, JB, NW)

Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1930, Vol. I, p. 245) says on Matthew 28:19: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” Hence baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.

January 10, 2007 at 11:41 am#36528

Participant

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Hi W,
Can you offer anything but presumptive reasonings here?
Scriptural statements carry more weight.

It seems that you David and others have no regard for the weight of scripture or the scales would have fallen off your eyes by now; but you would rather dance around the truth rather to face it.

Face the truth. The Holy Ghost (Jehovah) is literally speaking.

David

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AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.

Can you see the Holy Ghost David? What does He look like to you?

January 10, 2007 at 12:04 pm#36529

Participant

You have to dance and squirm alot to get around these truths.

This is the Holy Ghost (The Lord) speaking. Can't you see?

Isa 6:9 …, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

January 10, 2007 at 12:23 pm#36530

Participant

The Lord Jehovah (The Holy Ghost) is speaking. The grammar is so clear unless you wish to be wilfully blind.

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

And yet they continue to dance!

January 10, 2007 at 12:30 pm#36531

Participant

Wilfull blindless is sin.

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,

2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel , the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

January 10, 2007 at 12:32 pm#36532