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Quote Hi,
Certainly to insult or grieve or to lie to the Spirit is to do so to God Himself for the Spirit is the manifestation of God on earth. God in heaven pours of His own Spirit into Christ and through him into the brothers of Christ making all one in Him.NH
Nice way to dance around the truth.
But tell me why the Apostles didnt just use the word Father [pater] or God?
He used “hagios pneuma”, Holy Spirit!
Because the Holy Spirit is God, he says….
Acts 5:4
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.Remember that same Holy Spirit can be grieved and quenched and blasphemed, and resisted Etc, Etc, Etc..
Quote No one has said this scripture by itself says these three are one. But these scripture say that there are 3 as Jesus points out, So I was right. This scripture proves that you can count to three. It proves, in your words “that there are three.”
Three what? Three persons? Does this scripture “prove” that the holy spirit is a person?
Does it “prove” that the three are all God?
(If so how?)ALL THIS SCRIPTURE PROVES IS THAT THERE ARE THREE LISTED TOGETHER, NOT THAT THEY ARE ALL GOD, NOT THAT THEY ARE ALL EVEN PERSONS.
IF IT SIMPLY PROVES THAT YOU CAN LOCATE THREE THINGS NUMBERED TOGETHER, I CONGRADULATE YOU.
Quote Many on this forum do not belive there is three. Who?
Quote But there is plenty of scriptural evidence that the Spirit is more than a force or breath.
No, there is either evidence that:
a) It is a person
OR
b) it is something personified.SINCE THERE IS ALSO A TRUCK FULL OF SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK OF IT IN A WAY THAT DO NOT ALLOW FOR IT TO BE A PERSON, OPTION (B) must be the right choice.
There is no question that it is spoken of in personal terms, as many other things are in the Bible and as we often speak of the Bible itself.
But the other scriptures which I speak of make clear that those must be cases of personification.Quote Now, again why would Jesus use the word “Name” in a singular manner for all three? And if the Holy Spirit is to have a name as Jesus and the Father, then he must be a person.
You really didn't read a thing I wrote, did you?NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSE
That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name.
The Bible never speaks of the holy spirit in the same way that it speaks of God or of Jesus. For example, in the Bible, the holy spirit does not have a personal name.
Is that just an insignificant detail? No, names are important in the Bible. God stressed the importance of his own name when he said: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8) The importance of Jesus Christ’s name was emphasized before his birth when an angel told Mary: “You are to call his name Jesus.” (Luke 1:31) If the names of the Father and of the Son are so important, why does the holy spirit not have a personal name? Surely, this detail alone should make a person wonder whether the spirit is really equal to the Father and the Son.MATTHEW 28:19–WHAT DOESN’T IT SAY?
This text does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God. All it proves is one’s ability to count to three. “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The phrase: “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” appears in the Bible 15 times that I can see. In view of this, the fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!
McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20:
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove? 1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that. Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia, which advocates the trinity, admits that taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity.
As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often. One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.Quote Now, again why would Jesus use the word “Name” in a singular manner for all three?
Jesus and Jehovah have different names, so it cannot be referring to “name” in the sense you believe.
(see above)Quote Acts 5:4
Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
And you said he lied to the “church” as well. So what does this prove?You know David.
I wont tolerate being insulted and condescended to so I am gonna be gracious and not Speak on this with you again.
I know how to count to three!!!
So why dont you stay in your Arianistic religion and I will stay in my Tinitarian faith.
You are Loved by God as well as I, So there is no more dialogue here since I feel lots of hate and anomosity! The enemy of our soul would find occasion here.
Bless you David and all of yours! I scincerely wish you the best.
Quote I wont tolerate being insulted and condescended to so I am gonna be gracious and not Speak on this with you again. I know how to count to three!!!
I'm sorry if that seemed condescending. But really, what else does that scripture prove.
And I've asked you and others about 10 times what it proves. That there are three?
Sometimes the truth when presented in the wrong way seems condescending. I'm sorry if I didn't use tact. My apologies.david
Hi David,
In your scriptural studies have you realised yet that the JWs do not give the respect to the Spirit of God that they should?Quote Hi W,
Is not the finger of God of God?
But God is in heaven and he reaches to men with His Spirit.NH
So by this are you saying God is Spirit and has a Spirit?
Hi W,
God is a spirit being of soul and spirit nature
Ps 11
4 The LORD is in his holy temple;
the LORD is on his heavenly throne.
He observes the sons of men;
his eyes examine them.5 The LORD examines the righteous,
but the wicked and those who love violence
his soul hates.We are made in His image as inner man.
JEHOVAH (God) The Holy Spirit
Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Here's some more
JEHOVAH (God) The Holy Spirit
Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)And more for ye who are slow to learn.
JEHOVAH (God) The Holy Spirit
Compare
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.With
Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.And more still. Open your eyes ye sons of Arius!
Jehovah The Holy Spirit
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
NICK,
Unlike the vast majority of mankind who don't even know what the holy spirit is, we recognize it for what it is: God's holy spirit, his “finger,” as you keep saying.
And of course we respect God's finger. We respect everything that is of God.But the point that I keep making on here is that is “of” God and not God Almighty, as I believe you agree with.
Which is worthy of more honour? God, or God's finger?
When you repeatedly say in the Jesus threads that Jesus isn't God, some would look at that and ask why you aren't giving Jesus the proper respect he is due–perhaps because it truly seems that way, when all you do is argue against Jesus being God.
Similarly, when I try to present what the Bible teaches as a whole about the holy spirit, the truth about God's holy spirit, it may come off as disrespectful, but unintentionally so.
While we do not worship the holy spirit as God Almighty (like the early Christians, and Bible writers) we do respect the holy spirit.
david
Why is it that Cult Buster and no one come to think of it, is trying to answre my questions.
He just keeps posting scriptures he thinks supports his side, while ignoring everything that doesn't support his side. At least I read his posts and comment on them.
What does it mean, that he isn't answering my questions.
I feel I'm going to do what they do. Recently, I posted several thoughts on why I think the holy spirit is not a person or God Almighty, and in doing so, I greatly condenced my research. One thought went into one paragraph and each paragraph had many scriptures. Now, I'm going to do what they are doing and just put down scripture after scripture. It won't be much of a conversation, but then again, there seems no one who can converse with me on this, anyway.
david
I'll start with this one scripture:
MARK 13:32–WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS?
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
If the holy spirit is a separate and distinct being with personality, then Jesus either did not know this or was very inconsistent in giving “Him” proper due.
If the holy spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would he not also have to know what the Father knows? Jesus’ statement, then, would not have been true. If the holy spirit is a person and God, then Jesus statement is a lie.
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?i'M glad that MR. BUSTER POSTED this:
Quote And more still. Open your eyes ye sons of Arius! Jehovah The Holy Spirit
2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
2 Sam 23:2: “The spirit of Jehovah [or Yahweh] spoke by me….”
There are certain verses that certain ones on here who want to show that the holy spirit is a person could take and say: “See, the holy spirit speaks.”
Yet, other verses, such as this one that BUSTER mentions shows that it is really the holy spirit talking through someone.
I think it was WJ that brought out this same point:
Quote In Acts 13:2 the Holy Spirit speaks, “While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, `Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'” Ask the Witness, “When was the last time electricity or fire spoke to you?” It is obvious only an intelligent person can communicate in language. While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
To BUSTERS scripture above, we can add:
ACTS 21:4
“By a search we found the disciples and remained here seven days. But through the spirit they repeatedly told Paul not to set foot in Jerusalem.”ACTS 28:25
“So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers,”HEBREWS 3:7
“For this reason, just as the holy spirit says: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”HEBREWS 10:15-17
“Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.””PSALM 95:7
“For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasturage and the sheep of his hand. Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”JEREMIAH 31:33-34
““For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.””ACTS 19:2-6
“and he said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when YOU became believers?” They said to him: “Why, we have never heard whether there is a holy spirit.” And he said: “In what, then, were YOU baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism [in symbol] of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”The holy spirit spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own.
A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON…
For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. (Acts 7:55,56)
STEPHEN'S VISION
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw“Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.DANIEL'S VISION
In Daniel chapter 7 Daniel describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him:
“the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.JOHN’S VISION
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne.
JESUS AND HIS FATHER REPEATEDLY SHOWN TO BE ON THRONE . (Rev 3:21; 22:3, etc)
But where is the throne of the holy spirit? How bizarre, if the holy spirit is the same as Father and the Son, and is one of the trinity, equal with them in power, substance, and glory!
[/B]How is it that it has no throne while the others have?Sorry, getting back to the orginal point: A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON…
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (verse 3), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV).Let me quote them this time.
ACTS 2:2
“and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting.”JOHN 4:14
“Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.””JOHN 7:37-39
“Now on the last day, the great day of the festival, Jesus was standing up and he cried out, saying: “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He that puts faith in me, just as the Scripture has said, ‘Out from his inmost part streams of living water will flow.’” However, he said this concerning the spirit which those who put faith in him were about to receive; for as yet there was no spirit, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.”PSALM 45:7
“You have loved righteousness and you hate wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.”ACTS 10:38
“namely, Jesus who was from Naz′a·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him.”MATTHEW 25:1-10
““Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet. For the foolish took their lamps but took no oil with them, whereas the discreet took oil in their receptacles with their lamps. While the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep. Right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on YOUR way out to meet him.’ Then all those virgins rose and put their lamps in order. The foolish said to the discreet, ‘Give us some of YOUR oil, because our lamps are about to go out.’ The discreet answered with the words, ‘Perhaps there may not be quite enough for us and YOU. Be on YOUR way, instead, to those who sell it and buy for yourselves.’ While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.”MATTHEW 3:16
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him.”2 CORINTHIANS 1:22
“He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.”2 CORINTHIANS 5:5
“Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit.”EPHESIANS 1:13-14
“But YOU also hoped in him after YOU heard the word of truth, the good news about YOUR salvation. By means of him also, after YOU believed, YOU were sealed with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing by a ransom [God’s] own possession, to his glorious praise.”So not only is the holy spirit not seen in vision with Jesus and Jehovah, represented in human form with a throne, crown, etc, instead, the holy spirit, when it is portrayed, is compared to completely impersonal things.
These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?
david
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