The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Hi Oxy,
Will you not be shown to be like to the Son of God?

January 8, 2007 at 5:47 am#36230

Participant

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Hi W,
So God dwells in God?
Can we follow God?
It is easier to know that Jesus was a real man just like us- one that we can follow.

All the Fulness of God dwells in Jesus!

January 8, 2007 at 6:08 am#36231

Participant

Hi W,
Was he just a shell body or a normal man??

January 8, 2007 at 6:42 am#36236

Participant

WORSHIPPING JESUS WRITES:

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David

Why dont you find something wrong with this post and get back to me.

Your post looks very similar to the post of yours I just responded to. Is that all you have?

Mat 28:19,20?
WHICH PROVES YOUR ABILITY TO COUNT TO THREE. YIPEEEEEEEEE

And then you have this:

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ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

To all of the Arian viewers. The Spirit of the Lord God is one! For God is one with his Spirit.

Of course God is one with “his” spirit, just as I am one with my finger.

HOW OH HOW DOES THIS PROVE THE TRINITY?
HOW OH HOW DOES THIS PROVE ANYTHING?

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Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Holy Spirit….
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These words are interchageable and mean one thing,

YOUR CONCLUSIONS AND REASONING IS FALSE AND YOU LARGLY IGNORE MOST SCRIPTURES THAT SPEAK OF THE SPIRIT and the questions that I have raised.

Does wisdom dwell in you?
If it does, then I guess “wisdom” is interchangeable with anything else that dwells in you, such as “blood,” “a heart,” etc.
If wisdom dwells in you, then you would be able to answer at least some of my questions.
Instead, you use false reasoning trying to equate three things that have a similarity.
Just because three things have a commonality, does not mean they are “interchangable.” I can prove that in 5 seconds.

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These words are interchageable and mean one thing,

God dwells in us.

The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit divinely and unequelly and wonderfully joined together as ONE!

Whether it is speaking of the Father who walks in us or the Son or the Holy Spirit,

God dwells in us!

God = Father, Son And Holy Ghost!

Why do you never make any attempt to prove what you say? ? ? ? ? ?

You say things that are unrelated and them present your conclusion:
God = Father, Son, and Holy Ghost

Unfortunately, you are wrong. The Jews didn't worship God's spirit, and nor did they consider it a person, at all, ever. There is no reference to the holy spirit being worshipped and certainly no command to do so.
Whereas the expression: “Jehovah your God” occurs about 455 times in the Bible, the expression: “the holy spirit your God” occurs exactly zero times.

I'm not sure you attempted to read, let alone answer any of my questions and this is completely understandable. You can't. You've accepted that. But it's the lying to yourself that bothers me so.

david

And this verse, the way you try to use it bothers me:

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This is scriptural!

Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

It makes me feel icky and gross, what you are doing.

This text does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God. All it proves is one’s ability to count to three. “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The phrase: “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” appears in the Bible 15 times that I can see. . In view of this, the fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!
McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20:
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove? 1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that. Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia, which advocates the trinity, admits that taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity.
As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often. One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.

SO I ASK YOU AGAIN:
WHAT DOES THIS VERSE PROVE–THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
HOW DOES IT PROVE THIS?
DOES IT PROVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS EQUAL WITH THE FATHER?
HOW?
DOES IT PROVE THE HOLY SPIRIT IS TO BE WORSHIPPED?
HOW?
WHAT, OH, WHAT, DOES IT PROVE?
AND WHY? ? ? ?

January 8, 2007 at 6:51 am#36237

Participant

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Col 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The word “Godhead” Lit., “godship.” Gr., the·o′te·tos; Lat., di·vi·ni·ta′tis.
I'm not sure Godhead is the right word here.
That would seeem to indicate that Christ, as part of the Godhead, dwells in himself.
And of course, we are now entering the world of paradox, large made up philisophical words, the kind of thing that this very scripture argues against.
We need those large philisophical words to explain the mystery of the impossible to understand trinity.
Yet, Jesus wants us to understand him and his Father. (John 17:3)
One shouldn't have to take training in Greek philosophy to do so.

Most people understand that something can't dwell inside of itself. But, trinitarian thought is riddled with these philisophical paradox like mysteries.

WJ, can you answer my questions on Matthew 28 or not?

January 8, 2007 at 6:54 am#36238

Oxy

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2007,04:55)

Hi Oxy,
Will you not be shown to be like to the Son of God?

If I was capable of being without sin I wouldn't need Jesus Nick.

Congrats if you are that good!

January 8, 2007 at 7:19 am#36248

Participant

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This is scriptural!

I have a question.
If listing three together a few times proves the trinity, what does listing them separately the other 8000 times mean?

January 8, 2007 at 12:05 pm#36251

Cult Buster

Participant

JEHOVAH The Holy Spirit

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
:laugh:

January 8, 2007 at 3:20 pm#36260

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Hi W,
Was he just a shell body or a normal man??

Is he a normal man now?

January 8, 2007 at 3:23 pm#36261

Participant

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I have a question.
If listing three together a few times proves the trinity, what does listing them separately the other 8000 times mean?

David

You sure you have your numbers right?

How about the thousands of times the Father and Son are mentioned seperately?

What is your point?

My point is there is three and they are One! This is scriptural!

January 8, 2007 at 4:26 pm#36264

Participant

The Holy Spirit
A fourth avenue of effective evangelism with Jehovah's Witnesses is the subject of the deity of the Holy Spirit. As I mentioned earlier, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person because they see the Holy Spirit as a force–much like electricity or fire. Here is what Jehovah's Witnesses say about the Holy Spirit.

In their book You Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth, they state, “As for the `Holy Spirit,' the so-called third person of the Trinity, we have already seen that this is not a person but God's active force.”(15)

In their magazine Why Should You Believe in the Trinity? they state, “To a certain extent it (Holy Spirit) can be likened to electricity, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations.”(16)

Here are some verses that are effective in proving the deity of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 5 Ananaias and Sapphira lied to the church about the amount they sold their land for and the amount they gave to the church. Peter confronts them on this issue and states in 5:3, “Ananaias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit…?” Peter later states in the next verse, “You have not lied to men but to God.” Here the Holy Spirit is called “God” with a capital G both in our Bibles and in the Witnesses' Bible. Another interesting question to ask Witnesses is, “Can you lie to a force like fire or electricity?” The answer is “No.” You can only lie to an intelligence, a person.

In Acts 13:2 the Holy Spirit speaks, “While they were worshipping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, `Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'” Ask the Witness, “When was the last time electricity or fire spoke to you?” It is obvious only an intelligent person can communicate in language.

Ephesians 4:30 states, “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.” Any logical person should realize you can only grieve a living being. Ask a Jehovah's Witness, “How can you grieve or bring sorrow to an impersonal force like electricity?”

When you put all these facts together, the fact that the Holy Spirit is called God, He can be lied to, He speaks, and He can be grieved, the evidence shows that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an inanimate force. When presented clearly, I have not met any Jehovah's Witness who have been able to refute these verses.

God bless and good Witnessing!

Source
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/jehovah.html

January 8, 2007 at 6:55 pm#36271

Participant

Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 08 2007,06:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 08 2007,04:55)

Hi Oxy,
Will you not be shown to be like to the Son of God?

If I was capable of being without sin I wouldn't need Jesus Nick.

Congrats if you are that good!

Hi Oxy,
Forgiveness is in the Son and if we are found in him his righteousness is our righteousness. The good fruit we must produce is of his Spirit growing and flourishing in us so that it is no longer us that lives but Christ that lives in us.

“Come out of her MY PEOPLE”
is a command to put aside the greek and babylonian follies that substitute for truth so that the Spirit of truth can lead us by the Word.

January 8, 2007 at 8:08 pm#36276

Participant

Hi W,
Was he just a shell body or a normal man??

January 8, 2007 at 8:49 pm#36277

Participant

Hi,
Certainly to insult or grieve or to lie to the Spirit is to do so to God Himself for the Spirit is the manifestation of God on earth. God in heaven pours of His own Spirit into Christ and through him into the brothers of Christ making all one in Him.

January 8, 2007 at 9:46 pm#36286

Participant

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I have a question.
If listing three together a few times proves the trinity, what does listing them separately the other 8000 times mean?

David

You sure you have your numbers right?

How about the thousands of times the Father and Son are mentioned seperately?

What is your point?

My point is there is three and they are One! This is scriptural!

My point, WJ is that you and CB repeatedly quote matthew 28 and say: See, there.
Yet, you don't explain what this proves.

I have repeatedly asked you:

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And I have repeatedly gotten silence.

So I don't feel compelled to answer your “what is your point” question. But I will.

My point, WJ is that you point to the Matthew 28:19 scripture as some sort of proof that these three are one.
Well, IF THAT CONSTITUTES PROOF, WHICH I DON'T SEE HOW IT DOES, then what of the 8000 or so texts that mention these separately?

Well? What of them? I guess according to your logic, if mentioning three together makes them “of the same essence,” then mentioning them 8000 times separately would prove something as well.
But it would prove it 8000 times.

(The number 8000 is low. I only checked the number of times God's name appears/Jesus' name appears, and “holy spirit” appears.
I didn't include all the references to “God” or “lord,” which would make the number much larger.)

So I ask again: Why do you and others keep quoting matthew 28:19,20 and what and how does it prove anything, especially when given the number of times they are listed separately?

davie

January 8, 2007 at 11:03 pm#36291

Participant

WJ WRITES, to all who would ever come in contact with JW, how to prove to them that the holy spirit is a person. (He at the same time ignores the 50 or so questions I have asked him):

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Please!

The holy spirit isn't called God in this vesre.

Listen to your own reasoning. You can’t have it both ways..

“Ananaias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit…?”
“You have not lied to men but to God.”

So you conclude that God = holy spirit because they are used in parallel here, as being lied to.
But guess what you also said: “Ananaias and Sapphira lied to the church.”

So they lied to the church, to God, to the holy spirit. I guess, according to your reasoning, the church is part of the trinity too. After all, Jesus disciples would be “one” with Jesus, just as Jesus is one with his father. (John 17:11,21)
I guess since Jesus disciples, “the church” are “one” with Jesus and since in this account of annanias, you say he lied to “the church” and he lied to “God,” they must be one and the same…..I THINK I JUST USED YOUR OWN REASONING TO PROVE THAT THE CHURCH IS A PART OF THE TRINITY.

Through a special gift of knowledge by the spirit, Peter discerned the pretense of Annanias, exposed him as playing false to the holy spirit and to God. And of course, they were also in effect lying to “the church” as you say.

You also say:

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Another interesting question to ask Witnesses is, “Can you lie to a force like fire or electricity?” The answer is “No.” You can only lie to an intelligence, a person.

Ummm.

It should be noted that it is God’s holy spirit, his finger, his hand, something he possesses.
You ask: Can you lie to a force like fire…
Well I could ask a hundred questions like that:
Can you pour out a person?
Can you baptize someone in a person?
Can a person be divided and distributed?
Can some of a person be taken from someone and given to someone else?
Can people drink a person?
Can a person be annointed with another person?
Actually, I already have asked you these questions. Only silence came.

None of these things make sense.
So, your question: Can you lie to a force?
Fist, when we use the word “lie,” we think of a false statement. But of course, Ananias didn’t actually say: “Holy spirit….” Instead, he played false or dealt falsely or acted falsely.
A better way to correctly phrase your question is: Can you play false to God’s holy spirit?
Yes, you can, if you act in a way that isn’t in harmony with the way God uses that force.
If God’s will is for something to take place and he uses HIS holy spirit to carry out that will and you
In verse 9, we see clearly that it is God’s spirit, something that is His. Since the holy spirit emanates from God and is intimately connected with God’s person, they are often spoken of in parallel.

(If you lie to my eyes or trick my ears, are you not also deceiving me?)
Yet, does this equate one with the other? Or is the holy spirit something that is God’s? (Compare verse 9)

david

January 8, 2007 at 11:50 pm#36294

Participant

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While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
ACTS 21:4
“By a search we found the disciples and remained here seven days. But through the spirit they repeatedly told Paul not to set foot in Jerusalem.”
ACTS 28:25
“So, because they were at disagreement with one another, they began to depart, while Paul made this one comment: “The holy spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to YOUR forefathers,”
HEBREWS 3:7
“For this reason, just as the holy spirit says: “Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”
HEBREWS 10:15-17
“Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: “‘This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,’ says Jehovah. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,’” [it says afterwards:] “And I shall by no means call their sins and their lawless deeds to mind anymore.””
PSALM 95:7
“For he is our God, and we are the people of his pasturage and the sheep of his hand. Today if YOU people listen to his own voice,”
JEREMIAH 31:33-34
““For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more.””
ACTS 19:2-6
“and he said to them: “Did you receive holy spirit when YOU became believers?” They said to him: “Why, we have never heard whether there is a holy spirit.” And he said: “In what, then, were YOU baptized?” They said: “In John’s baptism.” Paul said: “John baptized with the baptism [in symbol] of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” On hearing this, they got baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the holy spirit came upon them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.”

It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, in effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3)
Notice what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman, who believes in the trinity acknowledges in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.” (1982 Edition)

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EPHESIANS 4:30
Ephesians 4:30 states, “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.” Any logical person should realize you can only grieve a living being. Ask a Jehovah's Witness, “How can you grieve or bring sorrow to an impersonal force like electricity?”

And how can you pour out a person and be baptized with a person?
Your question is simple. Since that spirit works in God’s servants toward the producing of fruits of righteousness (Ga 5:22-24), those who fail to appreciate this divine provision, who resist its working, and who go contrary to its leading are, in effect, “grieving” it.—Compare Isa 63:10; 1Th 5:19.

[/QUOTE]When you put all these facts together, the fact that the Holy Spirit is called God, He can be lied to, He speaks, and He can be grieved, the evidence shows that the Holy Spirit is a person, not an inanimate force. When presented clearly, I have not met any Jehovah's Witness who have been able to refute these verses.

Hello, my name is David. I’m one of JW’s.
I’ve just refuted these verses. I’ve compared them to other scriptures which make clear that the holy spirit was not actually speaking itself.
Anyway, I’ve never met anyone name WJ who could refute or who even attempted to answer any of my questions. How odd.

January 9, 2007 at 12:06 am#36295