- This topic has 6,304 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by
.
- Posts
“SOMETHING, NOT SOMEONE”–CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA ADMITS
Even though Catholics view the holy spirit as part of the trinity, New Catholic Encyclopedia Encyclopedia must admit: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.(I know stating what this encyclopedia says proves nothing, except that a group that strongly believes in the trinity, is forced to admit some things.)
THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39; 1 Cor 12:13) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.PERSONIFICATION DOES NOT PROVE PERSONALITY
Go back and look at the very first two questions I asked: “Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?
Today, we speak of the Bible in a similar manner when we say that it says something or teaches a doctrine. We can say that the Bible helps, comforts, guides us, etc. In using such expressions, we do not mean that the Bible is a person, do we? Do we??? Since scriptures speak of the holy spirit in an impersonal way, these other expressions must be a figure of speech– personification. Personification is a universally understood use of language.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. All three are said to BE witnesses. But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, in effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3)
Notice what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman, who believes in the trinity acknowledges in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.” (1982 Edition)TIMING OF THIS BELIEF’S RISE–PART OF THE FORTOLD APOSTASY
Not until the fourth century C.E. did the teaching that the holy spirit was a person and part of the “Godhead” become official church dogma.
Early church “fathers” did not so teach; Justin Martyr of the second century C.E. taught that the holy spirit was an ‘influence or mode of operation of the Deity’; Hippolytus likewise ascribed no personality to the holy spirit. The Scriptures themselves unite to show that God’s holy spirit is not a person but is God’s force by which he accomplishes his purpose and executes his will.
“The Jews never regarded the spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view. . . . The Holy Spirit is usually presented in the Synoptics [Gospels] and in Acts as a divine force or power.” (Catholic theologian Fortman, The Triune God, 1982 Edition)
Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: “The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin Martyr: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.” (1869)
Notice what the New Catholic Encyclopedia Encyclopedia says: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.
Was it that those who lived only a few decades after the apostles were speaking of the holy spirit “too impersonally,” or was it that they are speaking of it too personally?
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says:“Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.”
(The New Encyclopædia Britannica, 15th Edition, 1985, Micropædia, Volume 1, page 488.)“HOLY GHOST”–AND OLD ENGLISH
While the term “Holy Ghost” occurs some ninety times in the King James and Douay versions, it is actually an Old English term, “ghost” being derived from the German word geist, meaning “spirit.” That is why the expression “Holy Ghost” does not appear in modern translations.CAPITAL LETTERS, AND THE “THE” IN FRONT OF “HOLY SPIRIT”
The fact is that the truth about the holy spirit has been beclouded by the prejudices of Bible translators. Their use of capital letters cannot be used to prove the holy spirit is a person. Why not? Because at the time the Scriptures were written proper and common nouns were not thus distinguished from each other. The same is true regarding their adding the definite article ”the” before holy spirit in some hundred instances where the Bible writers had not done so. To omit the definite article seemed disrespectful to such Bible translators but not to the Bible writers. Thus Paul wrote that God’s kingdom meant “peace and joy with holy spirit,” not “with the holy spirit.” And Peter wrote that God’s servants spoke, being “borne along by holy spirit,” not “by the holy spirit.”—Rom. 14:17; 2 Pet. 1:21, NW.BLASPHEMY AGAINST HOLY SPIRIT
“For the same reason it is dubious whether Christ's warning to the Pharisees as regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt., xii, 31) can be brought forward as proof.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1912, Vol. 15, p 47-49)
I looked up the word blasphemy. The first definition I came across was: “blasphemous language (expressing disrespect for God or for something sacred)”–www.wordnet.princeton.com
So disrespect for God “or” something sacred. “Sacred” can be defined as something made or held holy. God’s holy spirit is…holy, sacred.
Therefore, this scripture cannot be used to prove that the holy spirit which can be blasphemed is God.“HE, HIS, HIM…OR “IT”
Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive parakletos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns (ie: “him”). On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun (“it”) to refer to the holy spirit, pneu?ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with para?kletos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.
Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”1 JOHN 5:7
A few still suggest that although Jesus did not spell out the Trinity doctrine, the apostle John did at 1 John 5:7, which, according to the King James Version, says: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” However, more modern versions omit this passage. Why? The Catholic Jerusalem Bible explains in a footnote that this text is not found in any of the early Greek or the best Latin manuscripts of the Bible. It is spurious. It was added, no doubt, to try to support the Trinity.MATTHEW 28:19–WHAT DOESN’T IT SAY?
This text does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God. All it proves is one’s ability to count to three. “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The phrase: “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” appears in the Bible 15 times that I can see. In view of this, the fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!
McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20: “This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove? 1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that. Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia, which advocates the trinity, admits that taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity.
As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often. One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes t
he authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.ACTS 5:3,4–ANANIAS
In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is often synonymous with God himself. In Acts 5:3, Peter says Ananias lied to “the Holy Spirit.” In verse 4 Peter says he lied to “God.” This is an example of the common Semitic parallelism of equivalent terms, and is not evidence that Ananias lied to two separate persons. If that were the case, why would verse 4 not say that Ananias lied to “the Father” instead of to “God.” Neither is this parallelism evidence that another divine person called “the Holy Spirit” is also “God” and therefore part of a triune “Godhead.”THE “HAND” AND “THE FINGER OF GOD”
“It is the finger of God!” the magic-practicing priests of Egypt admitted when they failed to turn dust into gnats, as Moses had done. (Exodus 8:18, 19) On Mount Sinai, Jehovah gave Moses “tablets of stone written on by God’s finger.” (Exodus 31:18) Was this a literal finger? No. Jehovah obviously does not have literal fingers. What, then? Bible writers Luke and Matthew give us the key. One recorded that “by means of God’s finger,” Jesus expelled demons. The other explained that Jesus did this “by means of God’s spirit.” (Luke 11:20; Matthew 12:28) So the holy spirit is “God’s finger,” his instrument for accomplishing his will. It is not a person, but God’s dynamic active force.
The “spirit of God” is synonymous with the “hand” and “the finger” of God (Ezek. 3:14; Job 26:13; Ps. 8:3; Luke 11:20). It is nonsense to call a “co-equal and co-eternal person” the “hand” and finger” of another such person. In fact, as a man’s hand and finger are subordinate and submissive to the will of a man, so the spirit of God is subordinate to the will of God. As what is done by the hand of a man is done by the man himself, so what is done by the spirit of God is done by God Himself. His spirit is his will in action, performing that which He “sends” it to perform.BREATH OF GOD
The “breath” of God and the “spirit” of God are synonymous terms (Job 4:9; Ps. 33:6; Ps. 104:29 and 30; John 3:8; Job 27:3). It is as inconceivable that the breath of God could be a person distinct from God as that the breath of a human could be a person distinct from a human. It is especially absurd to speak of one self-existent and eternal person as “the breath” of another such person.MATTHEW 3:16
At Jesus' baptism in Matthew 3:16, Jesus received God's spirit at that time, which conflicts with the idea that the Son was always one with the Holy Spirit.MATTHEW 1:20
In Matthew 1:20 we find further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct entity, but God's divine power. Here we read that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. However, Jesus continually prayed to and addressed God the Father as His Father and not the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:32-33; 11:25-27; 12:50). He never represented the Holy Spirit as His Father.1 CORINTHIANS 2:12
1 Corinthians 2:12 directly opposes the “spirit of the world” with “the spirit which is of God.” As the “spirit of the world” is not a person separate from “the world,” neither is the “spirit of God” a person separate from God. Each is an influence emanating from a source that produces certain attitudes, behaviors or “fruit.”JOHN 14:17; 1 JOHN 4:6
If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then “the spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 must also be a person, since the two are directly contrasted. The fact is that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power under which a person acts, but neither is a person in itself.NUMBERS 11:17
NUMBERS 11:17
Numbers 11:17 (English Standard Version)
“And I will come down and talk with you there. And I will take some of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them, and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you may not bear it yourself alone.”Numbers 11:17 (New Living Translation)
“I will come down and talk to you there. I will take some of the Spirit that is upon you, and I will put the Spirit upon them also. They will bear the burden of the people along with you, so you will not have to carry it alone.”Numbers 11:17 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
“Then I will come down and speak with you there. I will take some of the Spirit who is on you and put [the Spirit] on them. They will help you bear the burden of the people, so that you do not have to bear it by yourself.”Numbers 11:17 (New International Reader's Version)
“I will come down. I will speak with you there. I will take some of my Spirit that is on you. And I will put the Spirit on them. They will help you carry the people's load. Then you will not have to carry it alone. “Numbers 11:17 (Today's New International Version)
“I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take some of the power of the Spirit that is on you and put it on them. They will share the burden of the people with you so that you will not have to carry it alone. “Other Bibles say “take of the spirit,” still implying that the spirit is impersonal. You can take “some” water. You can’t take some of a person.
CONCLUSION
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit. With this viewpoint, it is logical to conclude that the holy spirit is not a person but is a powerful force that God causes to emanate from himself to accomplish his holy will.—Ps. 104:30; 2 Pet. 1:21; Acts 4:31.
To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the texts which personify the holy spirit employ a figure of speech, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood.
If the holy spirit was a person, why did Jesus not reveal it when he was on earth? His disciples, being Israelites, believed that Jehovah is unique. To this day, Jews continue to recite Deuteronomy 6:4: “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” There is no suggestion in the Hebrew Scriptures that the Supreme Being is in three persons.
Neither the Jews nor the early Christians viewed the holy spirit as part of a Trinity. That teaching came centuries later. As A Catholic Dictionary notes: “The third Person was asserted at a Council of Alexandria in 362 . . . and finally by the Council of Constantinople of 381”—some three and a half centuries after holy spirit filled the disciples at Pentecost!There is more. But this is a start. Who can add? (Please go back to page 77 and consider what I said.) I was somewhat disappointed when I put similar posts down on pages 65-67 and got no responces.
david
Oxy, the reason I am going to repost everything, and more, is that no one commented on anything I wrote and I wrote a lot.
CB replied by reposting his post. He ended with Mat 28:19,20, which I had written quite a bit on, asking what it proves and how. He didn't reply to anything I said.
Charity posted a string of things that I'm not sure even relate to the holy spirit or whether it is a person of the trinity.
You posted:Quote However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
and you made all the “he's” and “himself” in bold. Of course, I had mentioned the scripture that speaks of the spirit of truth and contrasted it with the scripture that speaks of the spirit of error. Are these both people I asked? I also discussed all the “he's” in your Bible and the “it's” as well. But you made no comment on this, only bolded how your Bible presents the holy spirit throughout in masculine personal form.
So of course, I'm going to repost. As far as I can tell, there is no reason whatsoever for believing that the holy spirit was worshipped as God by the early Christians. This development came much much later through controversy, which I call–the apostasy.
There isn't a shadow of doubt in my mind, when you look at ALL the scriptures that the holy spirit isn't a part of some trinity, any more than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob aren't.
So I was a little upset when no one even attempted to refute my beliefs. I had expected most everyone to ignore half of them, as unanswerable, but I expected some to try.David
Sorry David. I am not great when it comes to reading and I have difficulty with large posts. There is just too much to try and take in with large posts and too much to try and reply too, which would only lead to too much further discussion if you know what I mean.. lol.
This is what I posted on the Days of Power page in response to Nick's remarks.
Nick, the fact that I am in a relationship with God satisfies me. God showed me how to put my website together and taught me the content. If I did not have such a realtionship with Him that I was led by the Spirit, I would have cause for concern.
My life is wonderful and I am blessed beyond what I could have dreamed of. He is everything to me and I have not been shown by Him that I should believe anything differently from that which He has shown me.
You see Nick, God has taught me what I know, and there is still much for me to learn, so I have no difficulty with my current beliefs.
My understanding does not come from from theology (which is limited to man's understanding), but from being taught by the One who loves me. He will most times take me into Scripture to show me the things He speaks to me of, and I enjoy those times. But my belief and understanding is the result of a living relationship, being taught by the Holy Spirit who has been given to me to teach me and guide me into all truth.
Blessings.
Quote I am not great when it comes to reading and I have difficulty with large posts.
I know people avoid large posts. That's why I broke them down into what I think are one thought sections. One section for example being: “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.” I then posted all or most of the scriptures that I feel indicate this, in that section.Quote There is just too much to try and take in with large posts and too much to try and reply too, which would only lead to too much further discussion if you know what I mean.. lol.
I don't mind further discussion on this topic. So far, in this thread consisting of 80 pages, there has been about 15 pages of discussion on the actual subject, when the repition is taken out and all the non related discussions.
This, which is supposed to be one of the triune God has somehow been pushed to the side, in scripture often and in this forum too. This in itself says something.Quote
Nick, the fact that I am in a relationship with God satisfies me. God showed me how to put my website together and taught me the content. If I did not have such a realtionship with Him that I was led by the Spirit, I would have cause for concern.My life is wonderful and I am blessed beyond what I could have dreamed of. He is everything to me and I have not been shown by Him that I should believe anything differently from that which He has shown me.
You see Nick, God has taught me what I know, and there is still much for me to learn, so I have no difficulty with my current beliefs.
My understanding does not come from from theology (which is limited to man's understanding), but from being taught by the One who loves me. He will most times take me into Scripture to show me the things He speaks to me of, and I enjoy those times. But my belief and understanding is the result of a living relationship, being taught by the Holy Spirit who has been given to me to teach me and guide me into all truth.
Yes, much of the talk on this subject of whether the holy spirit is a person has centered around such statments, non-biblical feelings of what you feel the holy spirit is.
When I FEEL the BIBLE when taken as A WHOLE is extrordinarily CLEAR on this matter. What I suspect will again happen, is posts such as yours which don't actually address the question will flood the thread, as charities posts did last time (no offence to her, but she wasn't really addressing the issue) and my posts will once again be buried in the back, so far, no one will ever even know they were there. So, I'll have to repost again. Fine. I have come to accept that.
I really don't understand why there are 12 topics on the trinity, all speaking of Jesus and his Father, and only one as far as I can tell on the holy spirit. Even the general topics on just the “trinity” don't really have anything on the holy spirit when compared to Jesus and his Father, Jehovah. Maybe 1/100th of that main trinity thread is devoted to the holy spirit and proving it's part of a triune God. Why is that?
It seems the holy spirit is different, somehow, doesn't it?
Look at the visions seen of Jesus and Jehovah in heaven. Look at Paul's greetings in his letters, (also James, Peter and John's greetings, and Peter's closings). Why is a part of the triune God missing from the visions seen of God and his son in heaven? Why does the holy spirit not send his love and peace, along with Jehovah and his son, in all those greetings?
Why is the holy spirit not discussed one tenth on this forum what Jesus and Jehovah are?NICK HASSEN, You're back!
How was your time away?
I'm wondering if you know if there is anything in this forum (that isn't in the discussion section), maybe here:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htm
that discusses the holy spirit.While T8 spent much time on Jesus and Jehovah, I can't find anything on the holy spirit and would really like to if anything has been written.
david
Hi David, it's a big topic alright. I am not a theologian and for me to know God by understanding the Scriptures would be a big ask. I didn't understand anything I read in Scripture until I was born again and God started teaching me. I have been caught out a number of times believing something that was taught to me in church, only to have the Lord teach me different.
I know the Lord's voice and that is more important to me than anything. Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
Quite frankly, in light of the arguments you have posted, I have no hard evidence of the Holy Spirit being a third identity in the Godhead, except for my understanding of Scripture, and the fact that I have peace about my beliefs.
I think the best possible option for all is to ask the Lord and be at peace with what He teaches you. At the end of the day it is Christ who is our salvation.
Quote I am not a theologian and for me to know God by understanding the Scriptures would be a big ask. It's not me that's asking, Oxy.
JOHN 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”Quote Quite frankly, in light of the arguments you have posted, I have no hard evidence of the Holy Spirit being a third identity in the Godhead, except for my understanding of Scripture, and the fact that I have peace about my beliefs.
This interests me. You have no hard evidence of the holy spirit being a third identity in the Godhead “except” for your “understanding of Scripture.”
(and the fact that you have peace about your beliefs, which most do, otherwise they wouldn't believe what they do.)
If your “understanding of scripture” doesn't constitute “hard evidence,” then what kind of evidence is it? It is your understanding of scripture I wish to discuss.Quote I have been caught out a number of times believing something that was taught to me in church, only to have the Lord teach me different.
Most every church everywhere teaches that “The Holy Spirit” is a person of the trinity. It's all you heard, growing up. That is what people around you believed. The Lord can teach us truths through other people. He can use the holy spirit to bring out inspired scriptures which open our eyes.All I ask is that you look at ALL the scriptures, the Bible as a whole (and not popular opinion) when figuring out what the holy spirit is or isn't.
Quote I think the best possible option for all is to ask the Lord and be at peace with what He teaches you.
If he's teaching you something, it WOULD NOT contradict the scriptures. He can and does use other people to teach. People are filled with holy spirit and this enables them to bring to light the truth. Maybe the Lord is teaching you something right now.david
ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.To all of the Arian viewers. The Spirit of the Lord God is one! For God is one with his Spirit.
We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit, being used in speaking of God dwelling in our Body the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Holy Spirit….
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.These words are interchageable and mean one thing,
God dwells in us.
The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit divinely and unequelly and wonderfully joined together as ONE!
Whether it is speaking of the Father who walks in us or the Son or the Holy Spirit,
God dwells in us!
God = Father, Son And Holy Ghost!
This is scriptural!
Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Hi W,
What living being has ever been separated from the enlivening spirit?
God is no different, indeed we are made in His likeness.
What son never becomes separate from his father?Quote Hi W,
What living being has ever been separated from the enlivening spirit?
God is no different, indeed we are made in His likeness.
What son never becomes separate from his father?NH
Are you comparing earthly fleshly man with God?
Hi W,
Flesh is of God's previous dust\earth creation-the outer man.
Into the dust was blown the breath of God forming the inner man of soul and spirit alike indeed to God.WJ, I have some questions, for you and others who keep quoting matthew 28:
MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””YOU LIKE QUOTING THIS SCRIPTURE. I WOULD LOVE….LOVE FOR YOU TO EXPLAIN TO ME:
–WHAT IT PROVES.
–WHY AND HOW IT PROVES THIS.DOES IT SHOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
DOES IT SHOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS CO-EQUAL?
DOES IT SHOW THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON?IF THE ANSWER TO ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS IS “YES” PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS PROVEN.
BECAUSE ALL I SEE AND ALL THAT IS ACTUALLY THERE IS A LIST OF THREE.SO ALL THIS PROVES, IS THAT YOU HAVE MASTERED COUNTING TO THREE.
WILL YOU ANSWER ANY OF THESE QUESTIONS?
NO!
WHY?
MATTHEW 28:19–WHAT DOESN’T IT SAY?
This text does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God. All it proves is one’s ability to count to three. “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The phrase: “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” appears in the Bible 15 times that I can see. In view of this, the fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!
McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20:
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove? 1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that. Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia, which advocates the trinity, admits that taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity.
As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often. One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.On a side note, WJ, I wonder why you refuse to answer any of the questions I've repeatedly asked. They can be found on pages 65-67 or 77,78.
david.
Quote ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
WJ, why does the holy spirit seem to be often compared or paralleled to impersonal things, such as water? Can we drink a person? Can we be baptized in a person? Can a person be poured out on us? Can a person fill us?
I don't think this scripture helps you.Quote Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.WJ, please explain to my why and how these verses explain that the holy spirit is God or worshipped as God or part of a trinity.
Quote Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Holy Spirit….
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
could it be that God dwells in people by means of his holy spirit?Please go back and read what I wrote and comment.
David
Why dont you find something wrong with this post and get back to me.
ICor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.To all of the Arian viewers. The Spirit of the Lord God is one! For God is one with his Spirit.
We see many scriptures that show that Jesus – The Spirit of God – The Spirit of Christ – God – The Father – Spirit of him – The Spirit – His Spirit, being used in speaking of God dwelling in our Body the Temple of God, the Temple of the Holy Spirit or the Temple of Christ.
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Father….
II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.Son….
II Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Holy Spirit….
I Cor 6:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.These words are interchageable and mean one thing,
God dwells in us.
The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit divinely and unequelly and wonderfully joined together as ONE!
Whether it is speaking of the Father who walks in us or the Son or the Holy Spirit,
God dwells in us!
God = Father, Son And Holy Ghost!
This is scriptural!
Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
Col 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Hi W,
You quote
“Col 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”So did the “trinity” dwell in Christ?
Quote Hi W,
You quote
“Col 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:”So did the “trinity” dwell in Christ?
NH
Does the Father dwell in his body?
Does the Spirit dwell in his body?
Does Jesus live in his body?
All the Fullness of God in his Body! United together divinely, unequelly and wonderfully as One.
The God Head.
NH
Who but God could contain all of God?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
