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Here's my understanding David.
God was in the beginning more than one being because Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.
Genesis speaks of God AND the Spirit of God. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.And then in John 1 we see that there is also the Word of God (who later became Jesus)
So God, the Spirit of God and the Word of God were one in the beginning.
Then we see clear divisions in that God sent the Word to be conceived by Mary of the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit and the Word are both subject to the Almighty.
Jesus = Joh 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you shall know that I AM, and that I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.
The Holy Spirit = Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
The prayer that Jesus prayed is such: Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.So God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son and the Holy Spirit both are subject to the Father, but the Father has exalted the Son above all, giving Him all authority, and the Father has exalted the Holy Spirit in making it an unforgiveable offense to blaspheme Him. Both in return make the Father known to us.
I hope this helps
I struggled with this whole concept for some time. How can three be one? When I asked God, He told me to look at myself. I am three, body, sould and spirit, yet I am one. I am not the same as God obviously, but this did help me to understand that three can be one.
It's also interesting to note that my body and spirit are subject to my soul.
hi there ……………you all err for one simple reason.the reason being because you don`t know the scriptures………….its let us make man in our imge right . right away we think like we were programed to believe by the so called pastors”with diplomas ” .even if i would show the scriptures you woudln`t believe……………………..:(
Quote (chicano4571 @ Jan. 07 2007,00:21) hi there ……………you all err for one simple reason.the reason being because you don`t know the scriptures………….its let us make man in our imge right . right away we think like we were programed to believe by the so called pastors”with diplomas ” .even if i would show the scriptures you woudln`t believe……………………..:(
You are VERY presumptuous.Well done OXY, in your explaination of the trinty. God cannot sin therefore He would not lie when Jesus was baptized. If I may add , This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. ….and the Holy Spirit desended upon Him….:D
Quote (chicano4571 @ Jan. 07 2007,01:17) thank you. the scribes told JESUSCHRIST he was presumptuous too. 
They did? Have you got a Bible reference for that?Quote Quote (chicano4571 @ Jan. 07 2007,01:17)
thank you. the scribes told JESUSCHRIST he was presumptuous too.They did? Have you got a Bible reference for that?
I was actually wondering this too.
MATTHEW 3:9
“and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to YOU that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.”In this scripture, Jesus seems to indicate presumption on the part of the scribes and pharisees. It's the only thing I can think of that relates to what you say, but it's backwards from what you say.
Quote hi there ……………you all err for one simple reason.the reason being because you don`t know the scriptures………….its let us make man in our imge right . right away we think like we were programed to believe by the so called pastors”with diplomas ” .even if i would show the scriptures you woudln`t believe……………………..:(
I don't disagree with your sentiment here. I list the appeal to authority as one of the 'false reasonings' we shouldn't be caught by in the “5 common fallacies” thread.
It's easier to believe a lie that is told 10,000 times than to believe the truth which may only be told once. It's just easier. You are right that we should appeal to scripture and base our beliefs solely on that.david
Quote Here's my understanding David. God was in the beginning more than one being because Gen 1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.
Genesis speaks of God AND the Spirit of God. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.Since it is God's holy spirit, of course the holy spirit would have been there with God. But God could have been speaking to Jesus as well, when he said those words.
Quote So God, the Spirit of God and the Word of God were one in the beginning.
The word “beginning” in John 1:1 cannot refer to the “beginning” of God the Creator, for he is eternal, having no beginning. (Ps 90:2) It must therefore refer to the beginning of creation, when the Word was brought forth by God as his firstborn Son.
Since God's holy spirit, his finger, his hand, etc, has existed as long as he has, of course the holy spirit was there in the beginning, and even before the beginning of creation.Nowhere does anything you say indicate that they are “one,” which you apprently concluded from what you said.
Quote The Spirit and the Word are both subject to the Almighty.
See, this is something I'm not used to hearing, because this contradicts the Catholic trinity.Quote Then we see clear divisions in that God sent the Word to be conceived by Mary of the Holy Spirit.
Wouldn't that make the holy spirit Jesus' Father? Yet, it is never referred to as such. Of course, since it's God's holy spirit, there is no contradiction.So, OXY, is this your complete understanding of the trinity:
Quote So God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son and the Holy Spirit both are subject to the Father, but the Father has exalted the Son above all, giving Him all authority, and the Father has exalted the Holy Spirit in making it an unforgiveable offense to blaspheme Him. Both in return make the Father known to us. Quote Well done OXY, in your explaination of the trinty. God cannot sin therefore He would not lie when Jesus was baptized. If I may add , This is my Son in whom I am well pleased. ….and the Holy Spirit desended upon Him….:D
Apparently, resembling a dove. It's odd that for some reason, the holy spirit is never presented in human form. Jehovah is symbolized as sitting on a throne, as having a hand (the holy spirit) a finger (the holy spirit) etc.The holy spirit is pictured in other ways, non human form ways. Odd.
Anyway, I still haven't gotten any comments on my disection of the false belief that the holy spirit is a person, is God and is to be worshipped as part of a trinity.
So, I'll repost some of what I wrote and wait for the silence or diversions.
IS THE HOLY SPIRIT A PERSON OF THE TRINITY, TO BE WORSHIPED AS GOD ALMIGHTY?
The answer to this is unequivocally “No.”
The fact that the Bible does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.
God’s Word will help us and guide us to a correct understanding of the holy spirit. The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit ALL the scriptures that refer to that spirit. For example, one cannot just look at the fact that personal attributes are applied to the holy spirit and conclude that this proves the holy spirit is a person, for personal attributes are definitely applied to very impersonal things in the Bible by means of personification. Just above, we spoke of the Bible as “teaching,” “explaining,” ‘helping’ and ‘guiding.’ Yet we all understand the use of personification and that the Bible isn’t a person, because we can also speak of the Bible in ways that demonstrate it clearly is not a person. The point of this paragraph is that we must therefore find a belief that fits ALL the scriptures.DOES THE BIBLE TEACH OR SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
How many times does the Bible “tell”us that Jehovah is God? Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 timeDoes the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
Expressions such as this occur 1000 times with reference to Jehovah.
Does the expression: “the holy spirit your God” occur 455 times as it does of “Jehovah your God”?
Why is it that no scripture says clearly and plainly that the holy spirit is God?
It is because it is clear and plain that God’s holy spirit, is not God.
Again, I ask:
HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE TOLD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?
In Theological Investigations, Karl Rahner, S.J., admits: “Θ?ε?ό?ς? [God] is still never used of the Spirit,” and: “ο? θ?ε?ό?ς? [literally, the God] is never used in the New Testament to speak of the π?ν?ε?υ?μα? α?γ?ι?ο?ν? [holy spirit].”—(Baltimore, Md.; 1961), translated from German, Vol. I, pp. 138, 143.DID JESUS FOLLOWERS WORSHIP THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD?
There is no evidence that when Jesus was on earth, faithful Jews viewed the holy spirit as a person equal to the Father. They certainly did not worship the holy spirit. Rather, their worship was directed solely to Jehovah, the One whom Jesus himself called “my Father” and “my God.”—John 20:17.
The holy spirit is never worshiped in scripture, and neither does any verse of Scripture command such worship. This is odd if the holy spirit is truly a co-equal and co-eternal member of a triune “God” worthy of worship.
If “God” is worthy of worship, and “God” exists in three persons, then shouldn’t each “God” person be worthy of worship? Then why is this idea not found in the Scripture?How can this be harmonized with the supposition that the holy spirit is equal with both the Father and the Son?MARK 13:32–WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS?
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”
(Mark 13:32)
Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remainsWhy did the Holy Spirit not know?If the holy spirit is a separate and distinct being with personality, then Jesus either did not know this or was very inconsistent in giving “Him” proper due.
If the holy spirit is a person distinct from the Father, and is also omniscient and almighty “God,” then would he not also have to know what the Father knows? Jesus’ statement, then, would not have been true. If the holy spirit is a person and God, then Jesus statement is a lie.
How could the holy spirit be kept in the dark about this very important prophetic event? Are we to believe that it is possible for one member of the Godhead to keep a secret from another member while sharing the same eternal and divine “essence” of “Godself”?
The holy spirit is conspicuously missing from this statement, just as it is missing from in the many visions seen of God and Jesus below:A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….
For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. (Acts 7:55,56)
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
In Daniel chapter 7 he describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
If “the holy spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that he seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne.
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in their form and shape, the holy spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (verse 3), water (John 4:14; 7:37-39), oil (Psalm 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on everlasting life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV). These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the holy spirit is a person.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?
Along the same line….THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS NO THRONE
In the same line of thought, many times it is explicitly declared that both the Father and the Son have a throne, and are seated upon that throne. (Rev 3:21; 22:3, etc)
But where is the throne of the holy spirit? How bizarre, if the holy spirit is the same as Father and the Son, and is one of the trinity, equal with them in power, substance, and glory! How is it that it has no throne while the others have?SECONDARY POSITION IN THE SCRIPTURES / GREETINGS…
How could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given a secondary position in the Scriptures? Above we saw that it is missing from the visions of Jehovah and his Son in heaven. But it is somehow neglected to be mentioned in several other places by the divinely inspired Bible writers.
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3
Where is the holy spirit in this? While speaking of the grand life saving importance of taking in knowledge, where is the mention of this supposed third person of the trinity?
The apostle Paul in the opening of his letters often used expressions like this: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) This is Paul’s standard greeting in his letters to the congregations, as well as individuals to whom he wrote. . In each of his greetings he never mentions the holy spirit. Why did he not mention the holy spirit as a person? Because Paul knew nothing of the trinity.
James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit. And the same can be said of Peter’s closing words. Why? Because they were not Trinitarians either.
Paul’s same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every letter that bears his name. (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; etc.) In Romans through Thessalonians, the Apostle Paul sends personal greetings from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The holy spirit is always left out of these greetings— an unbelievable and unexplainable oversight if it were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ!
If “the holy spirit” were an integral and personal part of a triune Godhead, then why does “He” not send “His” personal greetings as well?
The only good answer is that there is no such person, for as an inspired writer of Scripture, Paul was on intimate terms with God and his Son, Jesus.
If there were a third person involved, wouldn’t Paul have surely known about it and included “Him” in his greetings to the congregations?
When Paul does include additional persons in his greetings, salutations and adjurations, he names “the elect angels,” not “the holy spirit” (1 Tim. 5:21; cp. Luke 9:26 and Rev. 3:5). How interesting.
In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the holy spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV)—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God's Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.
Yet here, too, God's Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the holy spirit
1 John 1:3 tells us, “truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the holy spirit s a divine person.NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSE
That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name.
The Bible never speaks of the holy spirit in the same way that it speaks of God or of Jesus. For example, in the Bible, the holy spirit does not have a personal name.
Is that just an insignificant detail? No, names are important in the Bible. God stressed the importance of his own name when he said: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8) The importance of Jesus Christ’s name was emphasized before his birth when an angel told Mary: “You are to call his name Jesus.” (Luke 1:31) If the names of the Father and of the Son are so important, why does the holy spirit not have a personal name? Surely, this detail alone should make a person wonder whether the spirit is really equal to the Father and the Son.THE HOLY SPIRIT LACKS PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION
Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’
It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—Compare Ac 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52; 19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations.
(I don't really care if your Bibles have inserted the definite article (the) in front of it in ever place. It proves nothing.)“THE HOLY SPIRIT”
Jehovah God, the Creator, the Father, the Most High, the Almighty, has many distinctive titles and designations. He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”
Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”?
If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy?USED POSSESSIVELY
More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.” All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29LOVE
LOVE–WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE JEHOVAH AND JESUS. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
We are required to love God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ; but no one is ever required to love the holy spirit. No such precept is given, nor is there any reference to it. Why?LOVE–BETWEEN FATHER AND SON. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?
In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father. (Mat 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18,22, etc.) Where does Jesus speak of the holy spirit as a person? Where does he speak of the relationship between himself and the holy spirit? The holy spirit is absent from Christ’s teachings in general. Jesus makes many statements about himself and the Father. He doesn’t make similar statements about himself and the holy spirit.
While very much is said about how tenderly the Father loves the Son, and how devotedly the Son loves the Father, not one word is said about the Father's loving the holy spirit, nor that the Son loves the holy spirit, nor that the holy spirit loves either the Father or the Son. No such thought is ever expressed. How shall we account for this fact if the Father, Son, and the holy spirit, are three persons alike and equal?
How astonishing, we say, that so much is said about the mutual love between the Father and the Son, and yet, not one word is said about a similar love between the holy sprit and the other two persons! Why is it left out in this manner?LOVE–THE FATHER AND SON LOVE MAN. WHAT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?Furthermore, it is never said that the holy spirit ever loves man; yet it is frequently declared how greatly both the Father and the Son do love man. But no such thing is ever said of the holy spirit. How shall we account for this?
USED IN PARALLEL WITH QUALITIES AND OTHER IMPERSONAL THINGS
The Bible states that Stephen was “full of faith and holy spirit.” (Acts 6:5)
And the apostle Paul recommended himself as God’s minister “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.”—2 Corinthians 6:4-6.
You can be “filled” with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith (Ac 6:3, 5; 11:24) or joy (Ac 13:52) and we see above that holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6.
Notice too the way it is used in association with other impersonal things:
MARK 1:8
“I baptized YOU with water, but he will baptize YOU with holy spirit.”” (Compare Mt 3:11)
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
Lumping the holy spirit in with these impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
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