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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,22:19) Hi BE,
Clearly you are content with your understandings so perhaps I should disturb them no more?
Whatever your pleasure may be Nick.BE,
I really feel that Lk 16.19f does need more honest analysis.
People seem to rush past this parable and consign it to being something to do with morality.Jesus used parables often. He always used real situations to make plain a message. If what you imply is true then the opposite is true here.
Jesus, according to such an approach as yours, used an unreal impossible fantasy to teach only about good and bad? All the detail Jesus provided was useless trivia and lies?
So what if they see and hear and taste and touch? Did not the soul of Samuel seen by the witch of Endor even be seen wearing clothes yet he prophesised and the prophecy came true?
Should we not look deeper at this sacred word of Jesus and let him teach us from it too? Perhaps the soul is more than what we have imagined. Not a marble in a bottle but more like the air in a balloon?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,23:05) BE,
I really feel that Lk 16.19f does need more honest analysis.
People seem to rush past this parable and consign it to being something to do with morality.Jesus used parables often. He always used real situations to make plain a message. If what you imply is true then the opposite is true here.
Jesus, according to such an approach as yours, used an unreal impossible fantasy to teach only about good and bad? All the detail Jesus provided was useless trivia and lies?
So what if they see and hear and taste and touch? Did not the soul of Samuel seen by the witch of Endor even be seen wearing clothes yet he prophesised and the prophecy came true?
Should we not look deeper at this sacred word of Jesus and let him teach us from it too? Perhaps the soul is more than what we have imagined. Not a marble in a bottle but more like the air in a balloon?
Nick please explain two things regarding the parable in Luke 16:1. What are parts of a human body….eyes, tongues and fingers doing here in this parable, if indeed this is an account of disembodied souls in another spiritual realm but their bodies with eyes, tongues and fingers, were elsewhere in a grave?
2. Why would a resurrection from the dead be required to warn the Rich Man's brothers?
Hi BE,
Perhaps we need the Lord to explain what he meant.What does a soul look like? What properties and abilities does a soul have? Have you seen one? Should we presume to know from popular opinion or seek answers from the Word?
Twice the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost or 'spirit' Jesus could have denied their existence but instead said in Luke 24.39
” a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have”
Now in Lk 16 the beings see, hear and thirst but that in itself does not prove they have flesh and bones. Do we need eyes to see and ears to hear?- we only know about earth and not about the places of waiting for the OT.
The resurrection idea was that of the rich man and the parable uses it as a warning that many will not respond to this evidence that he gave to the world. Clearly the world of the dead is entirely separate from that of the living and the rich man could imagine few options.
Neither was there any access between Paradise and Hades though they could see each other. Abraham had no authority to send angels.
When the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well it cannot lift itself up again. We need the spring of our own living water before that time.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,23:48) Hi BE,
Perhaps we need the Lord to explain what he meant.What does a soul look like? What properties and abilities does a soul have? Have you seen one? Should we presume to know from popular opinion or seek answers from the Word?
Twice the disciples thought Jesus was a ghost or 'spirit' Jesus could have denied their existence but instead said in Luke 24.39
” a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have”
Now in Lk 16 the beings see, hear and thirst but that in itself does not prove they have flesh and bones. Do we need eyes to see and ears to hear?- we only know about earth and not about the places of waiting for the OT.
The resurrection idea was that of the rich man and the parable uses it as a warning that many will not respond to this evidence that he gave to the world. Clearly the world of the dead is entirely separate from that of the dead and the rich man could imagine few options.
Neither was there any access between Paradise and Hades though they could see each other. Abraham had no authority to send angels.
When the cord breaks and the bucket falls to the bottom of the well it cannot lift itself up again. We need the spring of our own living water before that time.
Here is what a soul looks like Nick:Then YHVH God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7).
Note very carefully Nick that the dust of the earth BECAME a living soul.
A soul is simply a person who is living. It looks like something that is alive because it has a spirit in it. For this reasons animals are souls too but rocks are not.
“A soul” essentially just means “a person.”
eight souls (Noah's family), were saved through water (1 Peter 3:19).
And look where these souls/persons went:
If these men die the common death of all men, or if they are visited by the fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth, and swallows them up, with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the Lord.” And as he finished speaking all these words, the ground under them split asunder; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men that belonged to Korah and all their goods. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. (Numbers 16:29-33).
So all these men and their household goods went bodily down to Sheol-Hades. Think about that carefully Nick.
The Bible also tells you that some dead bodies are referred to as “souls.” That should also give you an idea what a soul looks like.
And Jesus gave up his soul unto death. Just how did that work?
Nick: “Now in Lk 16 the beings see, hear and thirst but that in itself does not prove they have flesh and bones. Do we need eyes to see and ears to hear?- we only know about earth and not about the places of waiting for the OT.”
And so since we don't know you can imagine up whatever you like Nick? These folks also had a finger and a tongue. Will your disembodied soul have a finger and a tongue too?
And let's look at this parable carefully:
Then I beg you, father, that you send Lazarus to my father's house for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' But he said, `No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'
Its rather plain Nick.
Hi BE ,
Study gen 2 carefully and you will see man was created as a body. Now when God breathed into created man the breath of life he became a living soul. Man is still a body in one way as in the next chapter God tells him so
“Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust thou shalt return”
So the Body did not change. The body did not become a soul. It remains a body. It was still the same but the breath of God added life and personality. Life is spirit which goes back to God at death and personality is soul, which is eternal. It only sleeps in death.God is spirit but seems able to see and hear perfectly well.
The rich man seemed to believe there were fingers and tongues but were they palpable and physical? I think not.
Your problem with the resurrection idea still is not plain to me .Perhaps I am stupid but please clarify it for me.
Hi BE,
Those that went down live to Sheol. Is that not just saying they were buried alive ? Are you sure that they are the only ones in Sheol still breathing? Would you not find their bones if you dug there?
Scripture says they 'perished'.What does that mean to you?pssst
We know the dead can hear .
Jesus said so
jn 5.25
“Truly ,truly I say to you an hour is coming and now is, when THE DEAD SHALL HEAR THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD ;and those that HEAR shall live”
jn 10 27″ my sheep hear my voice”
jn 10 5″…they do not know the voice of strangers”Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2005,09:17)
OK t8, BE, Nick. Thanks for your replies.
In light of the verses I posted, whose spirit is the Holy Spirit?a) the Father's spirit exclusively
b) the Son's spirit exclusively
c) both the Father's and the Son's
d) neitherHi MM,
No doubt that the Holy Spirit is a portion of the Spirit of God the Father. Yeshua was filled with and empowered by the Spirit, as we can also be to fulfil our role in his body.Yeshua revealed the nature and abilities of God to man.Joel 2.28
” and it will come about after this that I will pour out MY Spirit on all mankind”Gal 4:6
6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”Rom 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.2 Co 3
16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with everincreasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.That raises some interesting questions Nick:
1. Since Paul writes “And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”, is the indwelling of both Jesus' and the Fathers spirit required for salvation?2. How does someone recieve the Spirit of Jesus?
3. Why does Paul call Jesus' spirit the Spirit not once but twice in 2 Co 3?
Also, compare Gal 4:6
Quote 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” with Rom 8:15
Quote 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, “Abba,[h] Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. What do you think?
Hi MM,
“Seek and you will find, ask and it will be given to you, knock and the door will be opened to you”Salvation gives us access in prayer to the source of all the good things in the kingdom, the Father, all the graces that meke serving Yeshua possible.
Paul said to seek the gifts of the spirit in 1 cor 12-14.
Peter told us in 2 Peter 1 to be built up in the qualities we need also. All these graces are available through prayer.
James said we do not have because we do not ask.
The man who buried the talent and did not seek interest on the investment for his master suffered the consequences.
Lastly suffering itself changes us and we should not be surprised it comes or try to protect ourselves. Peter's first letter emphasises how good it is in moulding us and Paul boasted of his suffering for Christ.
Nick,
you haven't answered any of the questions, not one.Lad??…OK Pops
Quote (Guest @ Feb. 22 2005,03:30) That raises some interesting questions Nick:
1. Since Paul writes “And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”, is the indwelling of both Jesus' and the Fathers spirit required for salvation?2. How does someone recieve the Spirit of Jesus?
3. Why does Paul call Jesus' spirit the Spirit not once but twice in 2 Co 3?
1. They are the same thing and the Bible makes that quite clear.
2. Acts 2:38. Compare Galatians 3:26-4:6.
3. The Spirit of the risen Jesus is the Holy Spirit. See John 20:22 for more insight.
Thank you BE,
Im very interested in your insights. So can you clarify for me exactly how the Holy Spirit can be the spirit of both The Father and The Son. Do you mean that they share the same spirit?This will be tough covering all that has been written but I will attempt to do my best. I tend to agree with most everything that Ben Elohim has said. Indeed, soul (Hebrew: nephesh; Strong's 05315) means living being or creature. The soul can be killed or destroyed and it can perish or die. The 'soul' of scripture (in most cases) is NOT the soul of our common use. Nick, I love you man but I fear you are thinking too hard on this one. While I DEFINITELY agree with the doctrine of SOUL SLEEP, I do not envision our “souls” being kept in “paradise”. If there is ANY resurrecting spark kept to reanimate us at a later date, it would be the “spirit” that returns to God. Even still, the resurrected bodies of those receiving eternal life have something more than those who are resurrected unto judgment. This “something” is the Holy Spirit, which MUST be residing within our bodies at death in order for us to have hope of the promise. This, indeed, is different than our “spirit”, which is probably something like an identifying marker (and which makes each of us unique) much like a social security card.
For MM: God the Father is the source of ALL things, including the Holy Spirit. In fact, the Holy Spirit is the POWER that comes forth from God that does all work. Everything that Jesus did was through the power of the HS. Throughout history God has given His Holy Spirit unto men in varying degrees. Moses, David, Elijah, Samson, Daniel, and Ezekiel, to name just a few, were filled with God's Spirit.
Yet, it was Jesus that was filled without measure…His cup surely overflowed. And it still overflows today and into those who become one with Him and the Father. Jesus is the mediator or link (DOOR, PATH, WAY) to the Father for all mankind. We CANNOT approach the Father but we can seek out Jesus. The Father will not directly fill us with His Spirit…we must go through Jesus. Nevertheless, the same Spirit that comes from Jesus unto us is the same Spirit that comes from God. This is why it is interchangeably called the Spirit of Jesus and/or the Spirit of God. All power comes from the Father. Jesus has never made Himself equal to His Father and has always directed all worship to the Father. There should be no confusion as to the source of ALL things.
The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man reveals several things but one thing it does NOT do is give an actual picture of heaven and hell and judgment. It's main thrust is a prophecy from Jesus to His Jewish brethren. The prophecy deals with Israel's rejection of the Messiah. Though Jesus came back from the grave, they STILL would not repent.
Israel had long turned from the commandments of God and had followed their own tradition. False prophets (and teachers) were popular in Israel but not so the true prophets from God. One popular belief that rejected scriptural teaching was the separation of the wicked and the righteous at death. The Jews just could not believe that they would 'soul sleep' in the same place (grave) as heathen. This same thinking is why they still reject Jesus today as Messiah: because He was hung on a tree like a common criminal! It was this belief that Jesus appealed to when He told the parable.
The second thrust of the parable concerned the “keepers of the faith” (Israel, represented by the Rich Man) and the dogs (Gentiles, represented by Lazarus). Jesus was showing how the kingdom (promise) had been taken from them and given to the “dogs” (this is temporary, of course, until the times of the Gentiles should be fulfilled). This same story is mirrored in the story of Joseph (representing Jesus) in Egypt (representing Gentiles).
The third message, similar to the second, sums up the words of Jesus: “The first shall be last and the last shall be first”.
This parable was never meant to portray Hades as an eternal place of torment…Hades is the grave and nothing more.
Bic,
Re: the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. As Nick has already saliently pointed out, a character is named in this parable (if it indeed is one), something which wasn't done in any Jesus-delivered parable before or subsequent. This has led many to believe this was an actual historical event. I tend to think it is as well. Can you explain why Jesus named a character in this parable alone?Re: the Holy Spirit being God's power. Im going to quote an earlier post by Global bc he makes some interesting points which I agree with (emphasis mine].
Quote The summary addresses the question of the triadic passages, i.e verses where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned together. It gives this example:
Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Some may say this scripture shows us the trinity.And then says:
Here are some commonly used scriptures that are used in this way:
„h 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 mentions the Spirit, Lord and God;
„h 2 Corinthians 13:14 lists Christ, God and the Holy Ghost [Spirit];
„h Galatians 4:4-6 lists God, Son and Spirit of his Son;
„h Ephesians 4:4-6 lists Spirit, Lord and God and
„h 1 Peter 1:2 lists God, Spirit and Jesus Christ.
If we were to accept such logic as proof of the Trinity, then maybe we should be led to believe that Peter, James and John are a Trinity because they are listed together. (See Luke 9:28.)In fact we can identitfy 58 Triadic passages in the Bible which mention the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (I have listed them all below) and 8 Triadic passages referring to Peter James and John:
1. Matthew 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
2. Matthew 17:1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
3. Mark 5:37 And He allowed no one to accompany Him, except Peter and James and John the brother of James.
4. Mark 9:2 Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John, and brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;
5. Mark 13:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately,
6. Mark 14:33 And He took with Him Peter and James and John, and began to be very distressed and troubled.
7. Luke 8:51 When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him, except Peter and John and James, and the girl¡¦s father and mother.
8. Luke 9:28 Some eight days after these sayings, He took along Peter and John and James, and went up on the mountain to pray.I am quite glad you brought up these verses, for as you will see, the triadic passages of PJJ, reinforce the power of the 58 Trinity triadic passages that mention the FSHS (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).
The PJJ triadic passages, do not prove PJJ are God, they only prove there is a reason behind why they are always grouped in sets of three. It is up to us to discover why God went out of His way to establish a pattern with the PJJ triadic passages.
Likewise the FSHS triadic passages do not tell us that the “three are one” etc. All they tell you is that there is something special and unique about the sets of three persons who are grouped together as a set. Triadic passages are powerful, because they prove, by WAY OF PATTERN, that the three persons have a special and unique working arrangement.
It is well known that PJJ shared a special relationship with Jesus, being his innermost circle of human co-workers. In the case of PJJ, they are called the “sons of thunder” and yes, they form a trinity of sorts indeed! They were their own unique subset of 3 disciples. This is proven in Mark 3:14-19, where the “sons of thunder” are singled out as a “trinity” within the listing of all the twelve apostles.
The triadic passages prove that EACH MEMBER IS A PERSON. If the Holy Spirit is a person, Trinity is true and its game over for the Arians! This is one of the reasons the triadic passages are powerful. It is about as likely that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but electricity, as John is not a person, but is a personification of the disciples love and devotion and faith to the Lord.
But if John is a person, then so is the Holy Spirit a person! The patterns of triadic passages always group persons together. Remember, all a Trinitarian must prove is that all three members of the trinity are persons (specifically the Holy Spirit) and Jehovah¡¦s Witness and Christadelphian theology crumbles further into finer dust, than what it already is!
The key point is that Anti-Trinitarians are forced to group two persons with a non-personal thing (Holy Spirit = electricity). According to the Arians, God established a 58 fold pattern of “person, person, thing”. Arians will hunt hard to find “that one verse” that will group “two persons and the Bible” together, thinking such is even remotely relevant as a rebuttal.But these individual verses never form a pattern, with multiple repeated uses as do the triadic passages. When you see an elephant in the clouds it is merely a co-incidence, but 58 elephants in the clouds at the same time chained together trunk to tail, is a divine pattern! It is all about the clear and unmistakable pattern. It is the 8 fold pattern of the PJJ verses and the 58 fold pattern of FSHS that should send shock waves up every Arians spine!
Just as there is a specific purpose and reason why PJJ are mentioned together in an 8 fold pattern of verses, so too there is a specific purpose and reason why the FFHS are mentioned together in a 58 fold pattern of verses.
Patterns are in scripture for reasons. Now the divine trinity (FSHS) proves there is a special and unique relationship between the three persons mentioned. Even a simple overview shows that they are seen as equal partners in the purpose, plan, providence, love care and salvation of man.If the Holy Spirit is “mere electricity”, the triadic passages establish a pattern for a most unusual group: “two persons and a thing”. Arian theology really has no way of accounting for the triadic passages. Why would God go out of his way to establish a pattern of the “Father, Son and the Father¡¦s power”? There simply is not reasonable explanation.
Trinitarians, on the other hand view the pattern of 58 triadic passages as exactly what you would expect, given the assumption of the trinity.
So your statement: ” If we were to accept such logic as proof of the Trinity, then maybe we should be led to believe that Peter, James and John are a Trinity because they are listed together¡¨ is clearly in error because there was great significance attached to the grouping of PJJ: They were openly recognized by the other disciples as being special and were allowed access to places by Jesus that the other nine apostles were barred.The 58 Triadic Passages ¡V
9. Isaiah 48:16 “And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.” (verses 12-13 actually identify the speaker in v16 “ME” as being the creator YHWH. Jesus what actually was sent, is called the creator in the New Testament: Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10-12. The natural reading of Isa 48:16, is that the sender is the Father. The Jews simply had no way to explain how both the sender and the one sent (ME) could both be YHWH. This is a good example of doctrinal development between the Old and New Testament. Christians can easily make sense of the passage! So Isa 48:16 has YHWH sending another who is also YHWH. Of course Trinitarians know that all
three members of the Godhead are called “YHWH”. Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the send and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16! Combined with Isa 61:1, it is clear that the ME is Jesus!)
10. Isaiah 61:1: “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord (YHWH) has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; ” (This is a certified triadic passage because Jesus applied the text to Himself in Luke 4:18-30)
…there are 56 others which Im happy to repost if anyone is interested.Quote (Ben Elohim @ Feb. 22 2005,19:00) Here is what a soul looks like Nick: Then YHVH God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7).
Note very carefully Nick that the dust of the earth BECAME a living soul.
Revelation 6:9
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.Is this talking about living bodies?
Is man dust itself, or was man made from the dust?
If the body is the vessel and the Spirit gives life, then who are we? For surely we are not the body and we are not the Spirit.
Do we not have the choice to serve the flesh or the Spirit? If so then what or who are we that we can be influenced by the flesh or the Spirit? Surely we are neither if they can influence us.I think we need to understand the difference between what we are and who we are.
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