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Quote Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God? David
Does the Bible teach that Gods Spirit is not a person, or does the Bible say the Holy Spirit is not a person?
The evidence shows the Spirit is a person!
Quote It's more so the lack of the holy spirit that shows it's secondary postion. –“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3
Where is the holy spirit in this? While speaking of the grand life saving importance of taking in knowledge, where is the mention of this supposed third person of
David
Rom 8:
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.You cant have Eternal life apart from having the Spirit of God!
BTW. If you look real close at these verses, you will see the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ and Holy Spirit which raised Christ from the grave.
Devinely and unequelly united as ONE!
Quote And to repeat what I said: Quote
Oxy,Why can't you answer any of my questions?
I've asked you about 40 troubling questions…troubling for anyone who believes the holy spirit is part of a trinity.
You have yet to answer one.So neither will I answer your 2 questions.
Oxy, if you truly have God's holy spirit, perhaps it will lead you to the scriptures, to the scriptures I have shown and to show me why I am wrong.
So far, it has not.david
Don't you think it says something to me when you can't actually discuss this with me? When you can't answer my questions? When you don't even make an attempt?
David
I take that as a no you dont have the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues or prophesy?
Quote YES YES YES AMEN
We have all been totaly brain washed
Who can speck with a clear trumpet sound these days
All you guys doing well I find no better anywhere
But still we are not their with cinfidencecharity
Charity
My brain has been washed alright, by the Blood of the Lamb, and I have full confidence in whom I have believed!
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,09:00) And to repeat what I said: Quote Oxy, Why can't you answer any of my questions?
I've asked you about 40 troubling questions…troubling for anyone who believes the holy spirit is part of a trinity.
You have yet to answer one.So neither will I answer your 2 questions.
Oxy, if you truly have God's holy spirit, perhaps it will lead you to the scriptures, to the scriptures I have shown and to show me why I am wrong.
So far, it has not.david
Don't you think it says something to me when you can't actually discuss this with me? When you can't answer my questions? When you don't even make an attempt?
Sorry David for neglecting to answer your questions. I need to go back and find out what those questions were.But I take it (being presumptuous here lol) that your refusal to answer my questions means that you do not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit manifest in your life.
What an incredible thing you are missing! Just imagine being able to lay hands on a person in prayer and see them miraculously healed in front of your eyes. I have done this.
Imagine God showing you a glimpse of things to come in the Spirit and being able to explain a vision.
Imagine prophecying with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Imagine speaking in tongues in an intimate relationship with God, baring the very depths of your being to Him.
Imagine seeing a person in the Spirit and having a word of knowledge for them that sets them free, or releases them into something new in God.
I have done all of these things and so much more, but my boast is in the goodness of God because without Him I am nothing.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 03 2007,19:47) Quote YES YES YES AMEN
We have all been totaly brain washed
Who can speck with a clear trumpet sound these days
All you guys doing well I find no better anywhere
But still we are not their with cinfidencecharity
Charity
My brain has been washed alright, by the Blood of the Lamb, and I have full confidence in whom I have believed!
See its all to do with the computer crime on the mind at the garden of EdenTruly truly I say unto you that you know not what you shall become
And then you look back and see how pathetic the earthly mind really is and it will be shameful for those, when God opens the ears of all men when words have become plain and clear to understandExample; eating Choclate makes your clothes shrink mentality
seeing through a dark glass firstOther wise the snare of pride will start the puffing up in its own knowledge
Don't stop purging and changing, your well worth being appointed with authority
The more of yourself you purge out of the Jar, the more of Gods will can be poured in
charity
Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 03 2007,08:56) Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,08:47) If someone has no clue what the holy spirit is, and cant even defend what they believe, what are the chances they actually have the gift of Gods holy spirit? I suggest all on here who believe the holy spirit is a person should start looking at all the scriptures that speak of the holy spirit and stop parroting the same few scriptures over and over again that show personification.
So to repeat the question, have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit David? Do you have the gift of tongues? of prophecy?
Oxyare you out of your sins?
Never mind the Holy spirit just because you say you have it, dosn't mean you have
Why are Men willing to speck out against the powerI don't dare take the risk; I don't mess with angels! I am a very big believer….
Ask your self?
Only the righteous in the room received the Holy ghost when it came. but that dosn't mean the rest didn't get it when they were found worthy
charity
Pauls Mad again
Don’t strangle anyone yet Paul, wait until your sure they have receive their eternal life
I take it this lot thought they had it all together, computer crime pride
Fear God
Gal 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?WE Have made the receiving of the Holy ghost some what of a law, leading to receiving the counterfeit Holy Ghost
Please Use your discernment
Baptizing and tongues? As a law
It is not this way with God!
Quote (charity @ Jan. 03 2007,21:37) Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 03 2007,08:56) Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,08:47) If someone has no clue what the holy spirit is, and cant even defend what they believe, what are the chances they actually have the gift of Gods holy spirit? I suggest all on here who believe the holy spirit is a person should start looking at all the scriptures that speak of the holy spirit and stop parroting the same few scriptures over and over again that show personification.
So to repeat the question, have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit David? Do you have the gift of tongues? of prophecy?
Oxyare you out of your sins?
Never mind the Holy spirit just because you say you have it, dosn't mean you have
Why are Men willing to speck out against the powerI don't dare take the risk; I don't mess with angels! I am a very big believer….
Ask your self?
Only the righteous in the room received the Holy ghost when it came. but that dosn't mean the rest didn't get it when they were found worthy
charity
Hi CharityAm I out of my sins? Alas but for the thorn in my side…..
But that hasn't prevented the Father giving me a wondrous gift. Praise Him for His grace, without which we would all be toast!
Are any righteous? Are any without sin? No, not except for the blood of Jesus.
My boast is this, that God loved me (a sinner) so much that the death of Jesus in my place paid the price for my sin, therefore I am a new man, the old has passed away, all things have become new.
Moving on…. God has given us the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us into all truth. Some of the signs of a person having received the Holy Spirit is that they speak in tongues etc. This is not a sin.
But I am interested to know if those who deny the person of the Holy Spirit are also able to receive Him and enjoy the gifts and fruit that He brings.
oxy nothing matches this
Christ had to say to Peter his best friend, get behind me Satan
How’s that for an insult, true we have to all go thereSo when I am in the flesh I may not please God
But when I shift to the spirit I please him muchmy Jar has still some purging of unrighteousness
but has evedence of new spirit being poured inIt's a blessing to speak with those who expect changes to happen inside
charity
Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 04 2007,00:24) Quote (charity @ Jan. 03 2007,21:37) Quote (Oxy @ Jan. 03 2007,08:56) Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,08:47) If someone has no clue what the holy spirit is, and cant even defend what they believe, what are the chances they actually have the gift of Gods holy spirit? I suggest all on here who believe the holy spirit is a person should start looking at all the scriptures that speak of the holy spirit and stop parroting the same few scriptures over and over again that show personification.
So to repeat the question, have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit David? Do you have the gift of tongues? of prophecy?
Oxyare you out of your sins?
Never mind the Holy spirit just because you say you have it, dosn't mean you have
Why are Men willing to speck out against the powerI don't dare take the risk; I don't mess with angels! I am a very big believer….
Ask your self?
Only the righteous in the room received the Holy ghost when it came. but that dosn't mean the rest didn't get it when they were found worthy
charity
Hi CharityAm I out of my sins? Alas but for the thorn in my side…..
But that hasn't prevented the Father giving me a wondrous gift. Praise Him for His grace, without which we would all be toast!
Are any righteous? Are any without sin? No, not except for the blood of Jesus.
My boast is this, that God loved me (a sinner) so much that the death of Jesus in my place paid the price for my sin, therefore I am a new man, the old has passed away, all things have become new.
Moving on…. God has given us the Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us into all truth. Some of the signs of a person having received the Holy Spirit is that they speak in tongues etc. This is not a sin.
But I am interested to know if those who deny the person of the Holy Spirit are also able to receive Him and enjoy the gifts and fruit that He brings.
Of course more so than Catholics, Trinity being a Catholic doctrine. The Holy Spirit IS God's Spirit. You are created in the Image of God and have a spirit. Is your spirit a seperate person? The Father is God period. Jesus IS God of this creation but the Father is Jesus' God and certainly my God.
The Father gave Jesus all authority. If Jesus were equal with the Father (and that's what the Trinity doctrine states) then why would the Father have to GIVE anything to Jesus? Why is Jesus going to give His new kingdon to the Father?The Father gave Jesus a mission that He completed as a reward the Father made Jesus God of this NOW new creation. But scripture says that Jesus will after the last enemy is defeated give His new creation kingdom to the Father that God maybe all in all.
I don't even believe you believe in the Trinity! Do you honestly believe that the Spirit and Son are equal to the Father?
I have a prayer language but I know this that God knows my thoughts before I can even make a noise, a groaning too deep for words.
If you believe that because of your belief that those who keep the catholic doctrine are the only ones with spiritual gifts then I wonder what spirit you have?
Oxy I find your question very, very fleshly and certainly not of the Spirit you claim to have.
Quote Surely if we can ascibe peronality to every other Spirit being in the universe, then we can ascribe personality to Gods Spirit! OBVIOUSLY, WJ, you can ascribe personality to every other spirit “being.”
BUT, that is what is in question–whether the holy spirit is a spirt BEING.
So what you said means very little.
Quote Quote
Again, the fact that option “a” is a possibility, I do not dismiss. But other statments demand that it must be option “b.”
Yes, there are scriptures that speak of spirits as being persons, obviously.
Of course, this proves nothing, because the word spirit is also used without personality: “the spirit of the world,” for example. Is this a person? No.
So, again, we are left with option “a” or “b.” Neither what you just said or what I just said can prove anything by itself. It could go either way. But all the other mountain, or actually mountains of evidence point to option “b,” namely, that the holy spirit is not a person.David
We are talking about the Spirit of God!
Surely if we can ascibe peronality to every other Spirit being in the universe, then we can ascribe personality to Gods Spirit!
What gives? Why is it such an offensive thing to say Gods Spirit is personal?
Because while personal things are ascribed to it (as can be done through personification) there are many very impersonal things ascribed to it, that makes clear that it is in fact the use of personification at work.Quote David Does the Bible teach that Gods Spirit is not a person, or does the Bible say the Holy Spirit is not a person?
The evidence shows the Spirit is a person!
On the contrary WJ, this is all you say, and that is a wise move on your part. Exploring this more, it would become clear that “the evidence shows” that God's holy spirit is spoken of personally, but it is also often spoken of very impersonally, in a way that indicates it isn't a person. When we combine these two facts, it's obvious there is only one conclusion–Those instances are the use of personification.
Please go back and look at the math. I think I've proven this.
Quote David Rom 8:
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.You cant have Eternal life apart from having the Spirit of God!
BTW. If you look real close at these verses, you will see the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ and Holy Spirit which raised Christ from the grave.
Devinely and unequelly united as ONE!
We notice in this verse that the holy spirit is something that can dwell in a person; that it is something a person can “have.”
We also notice that it is called “God's spirit” or the “spirit of God.”
Again, more than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.”
All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29
Every part of this scripture seems to indicate that the holy spirit is not a person.
Of course God's holy spirit, or the “spirit of God” as your Bible says is vital for raising someone up. This showing that it something God possesses of course crushes your beliefs.
I thank you for bringing up this scripture which contradicts your statements in so many ways.You also said:
Quote BTW. If you look real close at these verses, you will see the Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ and Holy Spirit which raised Christ from the grave.
I'm also glad you brought this up. I hadn't mentioend this before.
While not agreeing with everything this site says, I'll just quote it to save time:
If the spirit of God is a unique and separate person, and having “spirit” is prerequisite to having a unique and separate personality, then the person called “the Spirit of God” must have his own “spirit” peculiar to himself and distinct from the Father and Son. We would then be forced to the absurd belief in “the spirit of the Spirit.” If “the Holy Spirit” has no spirit of His own, then He could not be said to have a separate “personality.”
If “God” is three co-equal persons, the third person can no more be “the spirit” of the first person, than the first person can be “the spirit” of the third person. To avoid this absurdity, “the spirit of God” cannot have a separate personality, but must be the power, influence, sufficiency, fullness or some extension of the Father, the real and unitary person called the One True God.— http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/WG/holyspirit.htmAnd again, specifically referring to this verse, another website:
Again, the Father Himself is said to be a Spirit. Are there, then, two spirits, both divine, both God, both equal to each other, both alike? Then how is one different from the other? God is said to be a Spirit; and it is everywhere declared that the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God. Is it then the spirit of a spirit? What kind of a spirit would that be? Again, “God is a Spirit.” John 4:24.
Now if the Holy Ghost is a distinct person from the Father, here are two spirits. That the pre-existent Word, the Son, is another person, our opponents contend; and that He has a spirit they will not deny. Here, then, are three spirits – – the Son is a spirit, and the Holy Ghost is a spirit, and both equal in substance and power. Well, now the Son has a spirit, “for God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying, Abba, Father.” Gal. 4:6. Again, “If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.” Rom. 8:9 This makes four spirits. God also has a spirit. “The Spirit of God.” Gen.1:2 And if the Holy Ghost is equal to the other two persons, then it must have a spirit too. Here are six spirits, and according to our trinitarian brethren, six persons. How absurd!
;–http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=139Anyway, this scripture brings out an absurdity if you believe in the trinity. So thanks for bringing it out, once again.
Quote Quote
And to repeat what I said:Quote
Oxy,Why can't you answer any of my questions?
I've asked you about 40 troubling questions…troubling for anyone who believes the holy spirit is part of a trinity.
You have yet to answer one.So neither will I answer your 2 questions.
Oxy, if you truly have God's holy spirit, perhaps it will lead you to the scriptures, to the scriptures I have shown and to show me why I am wrong.
So far, it has not.david
Don't you think it says something to me when you can't actually discuss this with me? When you can't answer my questions? When you don't even make an attempt?
David
I take that as a no you dont have the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues or prophesy?
I said I would answer Oxy's question when he starts answering some of mine. His and your objective in diverting the conversation is week and obvious. I'm sorry, but it is.
Quote Sorry David for neglecting to answer your questions. I need to go back and find out what those questions were.
Hi Oxy. They begin on page 65 I believe, or maybe 66.Quote But I take it (being presumptuous here lol) that your refusal to answer my questions means that you do not have the gifts of the Holy Spirit manifest in your life. What an incredible thing you are missing! Just imagine being able to lay hands on a person in prayer and see them miraculously healed in front of your eyes. I have done this.
Imagine God showing you a glimpse of things to come in the Spirit and being able to explain a vision.
Imagine prophecying with the power of the Holy Spirit.
Imagine speaking in tongues in an intimate relationship with God, baring the very depths of your being to Him.
Imagine seeing a person in the Spirit and having a word of knowledge for them that sets them free, or releases them into something new in God.
I have done all of these things and so much more, but my boast is in the goodness of God because without Him I am nothing.
There is a section on “tongues” that I would love to discuss this with you. But right now, I'd like to discuss whether the holy spirit is a person, God, and worshipped in scripture as such.
Clearly, it is not.david
Quote Oxy I find your question very, very fleshly and certainly not of the Spirit you claim to have. –Kenrch.
I just found it to be a diversion, a distraction, a time delay, etc.
Quote (david @ Jan. 04 2007,01:00) Quote Oxy I find your question very, very fleshly and certainly not of the Spirit you claim to have. –Kenrch.
I just found it to be a diversion, a distraction, a time delay, etc.
Your such management material davidHmmm commander in the makings?
Thisty
Quote (kenrch @ Jan. 04 2007,00:51) Oxy I find your question very, very fleshly and certainly not of the Spirit you claim to have.
Ouch! That hurt Kenrch.There was nothing fleshly about the question. I was genuinely curious.
It hurts that you chose to see me in the worst light, but hey it's ok, I'm over it and I still love ya bro!
Quote (david @ Jan. 04 2007,01:00) Quote Oxy I find your question very, very fleshly and certainly not of the Spirit you claim to have. –Kenrch.
I just found it to be a diversion, a distraction, a time delay, etc.
David, I'm not really into using “tactics”I have been reading over a lot of your questions and need to do so again. It's going to take some time so I hope you are patient.
I just know that we were made in the image of God, body soul and spirit.
We are a three part being, but I never talk to my spirit as such, but my spirit speaks to me in the way of conscience, sixth sense, intuition etc.
My soul is my identity. It's who I am and my reason, thoughts, understanding, personality etc.
I will have a further look at your questions.
Quote David, I'm not really into using “tactics” I'm sorry if I impuned wrong actions on your part. But such “tactics” are practiced a lot on this site. Someone can't answer troubling questions, and they throw something else at you.
When dealing with people in the ministry, for example, we might be talking about this, this subject, the holy spirit. Maybe they are the one who raised this issue. I start to use the Bible to demonstrate what it says. They are at a loss to reply, so they accuse us of something completely different. That's not really a fair play.
I had made a large series of statments and biblical arguments asking many many questions regarding the nature of the holy spirit and what the scriptures as a whole have to say.
You seemed to sidestep what I said, only to ask me a question. I believed you were looking for a way to dismiss anything I had to say, in an effort to save yourself the work of reasoning out what I wrote.
For example, a lot of people reason: “He's a JW. It doesn't matter what he says. He's wrong BECAUSE he's a JW.”
Such reasoning is clearly false and … dumb.Quote I have been reading over a lot of your questions and need to do so again. It's going to take some time so I hope you are patient.
Yes. No problem.
Since I've posted the first serious of arguments, I've actually doubled the scriptures and information I have. I already had what I considered to be the main points and reasons for believing what I do. But somehow, I missed some other simple, basic reasons for believing the holy spirit is not a person, not God and not to be worshipped. And if you've missed any other “proof” that the holy spirit is a person who is worshiped as God, please do add it to your reply.
I don't mind if you hold off answering my questions for a while, because I've expanded my arguments quite a bit and wish to repost. I had been just inserting certain new points by editing them, but now, I'll have to just repost the whole larger version.Quote I just know that we were made in the image of God, body soul and spirit.
We are made in the image of God, with similar characteristics, love, etc. Obviously, we don't have the same body as God. “God is a spirit.”
I think we are confusing the use of the word spirit.JOHN 4:24
“God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.””We notice two very different uses of “spirit” here, for example.
Quote We are a three part being, but I never talk to my spirit as such, but my spirit speaks to me in the way of conscience, sixth sense, intuition etc.
Maybe it's just your conscience that is talking to you. Anyway, I would prefer that we use scripture, rather than our own “sense” or “feeling” of what the holy spirit is. God's word is truth. And, it's beneficial for setting things straight. (2 tim 3:16)
Let's rely on it, rather than our imperfect senses.
PROVERBS 28:26
“He that is trusting in his own heart is stupid, but he that is walking in wisdom is the one that will escape.”Quote My soul is my identity. It's who I am and my reason, thoughts, understanding, personality etc.
Again, I'm not sure why we are discussing this, and not what the scriptures “say” or “teach” or “confess” or “(insert your favorite personal attribute)” with regards to the holy spirit.Why?
Quote I will have a further look at your questions.
Take your time. I have just begun an indepth study of this subject. This will take some time.I do ask that you try to answer my questions directly and not just state other scriptures that you feel support your beliefs. (I know that the holy spirit is spoken of with personal attributes. This is not in question and I agree that this is so. Please attempt to actually answer my questions. The fate of the trinity doctrine rests on your shoulder. One of the legs of this three legged belief is getting a little wobbly.
I've never really made it a priority to discuss the trinity on here, because while you spend your time discussing ambigous scriptures about Christ and his Father, it is apparent to me that the little spoken of holy spirit is definitely not worshipped in scripture, not spoken of as God and cannot possibly even be a person given ALL the scriptures that are applied to “it.”*
*(Before anyone unknowingly responds to my “it” comment, please go back and read my comments on this on pages 65-67)
davie
David… I am pleased you added this comment
*(Before anyone unknowingly responds to my “it” comment, please go back and read my comments on this on pages 65-67)
K.. rolling sleeves up.
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