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With our spirit,
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Our spirit our will, that is full of pride and pushes for control wanting other to submit
We need fear that we have not stepped out thinking that the spirit that bears witness to us that we are children
Tally around Jerusalem till it the Holy Spirit comescharity
Sorry WorshippingJesus
I may have been getting my exercise jumping to conclusions again
Faith is Good
Just adding and adding
charity
Quote JOHN 14:17; 1 JOHN 4:6
If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then I wonder what the “spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 is. Since it is directly contrasted with the spirit of truth, I guess it must be a person too. No.The fact is that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power under which a person acts, but neither is a person in itself.
David
Good point. Actually it is.
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Acts 19
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.Matt 8:
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.Thanks for the insight!
David I assume that you would admit that these evil sprits had peronalitys?
If so why would you deny Gods Spirit of being a person?
After all it would make since that the strong man that Jesus talked about would be bound by an even stronger person.
God = Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Let's look at the math:
If statement #1 allows for possibilities:
“a” or
“b”And statment # 2 allows for only possibility:
“b”Then the answer is “b”
It does no good to keep repeating option “a.”
Logic and reason demand that the holy spirit is not a person, at least, based on all that the scripture say.
Quote Thanks for the insight! David I assume that you would admit that these evil sprits had peronalitys?
If so why would you deny Gods Spirit of being a person?
Again, the fact that option “a” is a possibility, I do not dismiss. But other statments demand that it must be option “b.”
Yes, there are scriptures that speak of spirits as being persons, obviously.
Of course, this proves nothing, because the word spirit is also used without personality: “the spirit of the world,” for example. Is this a person? No.
So, again, we are left with option “a” or “b.” Neither what you just said or what I just said can prove anything by itself. It could go either way. But all the other mountain, or actually mountains of evidence point to option “b,” namely, that the holy spirit is not a person.Again,
PERSONIFICATION DOES NOT PROVE PERSONALITY
Go back and look at the very first two questions I asked: “Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?
Today, we speak of the Bible in a similar manner when we say that it says something or teaches a doctrine. We can say that the Bible helps, comforts, guides us, etc. In using such expressions, we do not mean that the Bible is a person, do we? Do we??? Since scriptures speak of the holy spirit in an impersonal way, these other expressions must be a figure of speech– personification.
In the Bible the holy spirit is personified, but this is not unusual in the Bible.
The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12)
Paul speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.
Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT)
Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.”
As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. All three are said to BE witnesses. But water and blood are obviously not persons, and neither is the holy spirit a person.
While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.)
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. It is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Personification is actually a vivid way in which the Scriptures sometimes express matters.
While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)
It may thus be compared to radio waves that can transmit a message from a person speaking into a microphone and cause his voice to be heard by persons a distance away, in effect, ‘speaking’ the message by a radio loudspeaker. God, by his spirit, transmits his messages and communicates his will to the minds and hearts of his servants on earth, who, in turn, may convey that message to yet others. Even as an electric current can be used to accomplish a tremendous variety of things, so God’s spirit is used to commission and enable persons to do a wide variety of things. (Isa 48:16; 61:1-3)
Notice what Catholic theologian Edmund Fortman, who believes in the trinity acknowledges in The Triune God: “Although this spirit is often described in personal terms, it seems quite clear that the sacred writers [of the Hebrew Scriptures] never conceived or presented this spirit as a distinct person.” (1982 Edition)and
THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN A WAY THAT INDICATES IT IS NOT A PERSON.
It is referred to as a “gift.” (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). The spirit of God is said to be divisible and able to be distributed. (Num. 11:17-25)
The holy spirit can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. (Acts 2:4; 7:55; Eph 5:18; Luke 2:25-27; Exodus 31:3; Judges 3:10; 6:34)
Can a human get filled with another person?
Holy spirit was ‘given,’ ‘poured out upon,’ and ‘distributed.’ (Luke 11:13; Acts 10:45; Hebrews 2:4) It can be quenched. (1 Thessalonians 5:19) People can drink of it. (John 7:37-39) The holy spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6)
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation . . .” (Ephesians 1:13-14, 17).
Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. (Numbers 11:17, 25) The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats. (Judges 14:6; 1 Samuel 10:6)
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize “with holy spirit and with fire,” even as he was baptizing with water.
To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person?
Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person?
Peter stated that God poured out ‘some of his spirit’ upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?—Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41
Mark 1:10 shows that the holy spirit came down upon Jesus “like a dove,” not in a human form. The holy spirit was not some person coming upon Jesus. If it is a person, why did it not appear as a person?
That power from God enabled Jesus to heal the sick and resurrect the dead. As Luke 5:17 says in the Diaglott: “The Mighty Power of the Lord [God] was on him [Jesus] to cure.” Later, at Pentecost, the apostles also were given the power from God to heal the sick and raise the dead. Did that make them part of some “godhead”? No, they were simply given power from God, through Christ, to do what humans ordinarily could not do.
These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person. None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.WJ asked this in another thread:
Quote Where is the Holy Spirit in the Bible given a secondary position? It's more so the lack of the holy spirit that shows it's secondary postion.
–“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3
Where is the holy spirit in this? While speaking of the grand life saving importance of taking in knowledge, where is the mention of this supposed third person of the trinity?
–The apostle Paul in the opening of his letters often used expressions like this: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) Why did he not mention the holy spirit as a person? Because Paul knew nothing of the “Holy Trinity.”
–James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit. Why? Because they were not Trinitarians either.
–Over and over again, we see in these letters The Father and his Son mentioned together, but lacking any mention of God's holy spirit.
Think about this–the same greeting, with only small variations, appears in every letter that bears Paul's name (see Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; etc.) The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetings. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE AND UNEXPLAINABLE IF THE HOLY SPIRIT WERE A PERSON, A PART OF THE TRINITY.
–In all of Paul's writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the holy spirit mentioned along with the Father and Son, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV) in which believers share—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God.
–At 1 Cor 8:6, Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, . . . and one Lord Jesus Christ . . .” He makes no mention of the holy spirit as a divine person.
–Without going into how important names are in the Bible and how important they are to God, I'll just say that the holy spirit has no distinct name.
–Jehovah is certainly worshipped in scripture. Where are we told of ones worshipping or the command to worship the holy spirit? Again, a secondary position.
—For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. (Acts 7:55,56)
–Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
–In Daniel chapter 7 he describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
–The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6)
–And again in Revelation chapter 21, we again see the Father and Christ, but holy spirit is once again not seen.
–So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god. Jesus repeatedly mentioned being at his Father’s right hand. No one is mentioned as being at his Father’s left hand. And nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in scripture.
–If “the Holy Spirit” is a “co-eternal” member of a triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that He seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne, as shown in Revelation.–the holy spirit has no throne.
–the holy spirit is never said to be worshipped.
–we are never told to love the holy spirit, as we are of the Father and son.
WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS? WHERE IS HE IN THIS SCRIPTURE–MARK 13:32?
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”
Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
The Holy Spirit is conspicuously missing from this statement. It's missing from knowing what only Jehovah knows. It's missing from many, no, all the visions where Jesus and Jehovah are portrayed. It's missing from the statement in John 17:3 where our very lives depend on taking in knowledge of the Father and his son. It's missing from the many greetings of Paul, James, John and Peter.
It's missing from being equal to God in scripture.Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,07:37) Quote The Father has sent his Holy Spirit of truth into my heart that will guide me and lead me into all truth. JOHN 14:17; 1 JOHN 4:6
If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then I wonder what the “spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 is. Since it is directly contrasted with the spirit of truth, I guess it must be a person too. No.The fact is that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power under which a person acts, but neither is a person in itself.
Your loss David.We have a jar full of our own spirit first
We purge it out of the jar in faith and hope
That the jar may be filled with the Holy Spirit,
Men are only filled with the Holy Ghost, just a body containing which ever spirit they have a free choice to receive
So what shall our new bodies be like Paul
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Yes he had a body to walk around in on earth
2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
Where’s all the faith gone
2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.Paul’s getting Mad they just don’t get it OKAY OKAY DON’T RIP THEIR HEADS OFF
THEY EVEN CAN'T HEAR THE HOLY GHOST TALKING IN YOU1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.
1Cr 15:35 ¶ But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Cr 15:36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Cr 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Cr 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
1Cr 15:40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another.If someone has no clue what the holy spirit is, and cant even defend what they believe, what are the chances they actually have the gift of Gods holy spirit?
I suggest all on here who believe the holy spirit is a person should start looking at all the scriptures that speak of the holy spirit and stop parroting the same few scriptures over and over again that show personification.
“We have a jar full of our own spirit first.”
Charity, I still have no idea what you believe. Why is that?If the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for the battle? as the scripture says.
While your words are pretty, I still don't know what you believe.
Is the holy spirit a part of the trinity, a person, worshipped, God?Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,08:47) If someone has no clue what the holy spirit is, and cant even defend what they believe, what are the chances they actually have the gift of Gods holy spirit? I suggest all on here who believe the holy spirit is a person should start looking at all the scriptures that speak of the holy spirit and stop parroting the same few scriptures over and over again that show personification.
So to repeat the question, have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit David? Do you have the gift of tongues? of prophecy?And to repeat what I said:
Quote Oxy, Why can't you answer any of my questions?
I've asked you about 40 troubling questions…troubling for anyone who believes the holy spirit is part of a trinity.
You have yet to answer one.So neither will I answer your 2 questions.
Oxy, if you truly have God's holy spirit, perhaps it will lead you to the scriptures, to the scriptures I have shown and to show me why I am wrong.
So far, it has not.david
Don't you think it says something to me when you can't actually discuss this with me? When you can't answer my questions? When you don't even make an attempt?
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,08:47) If someone has no clue what the holy spirit is, and cant even defend what they believe, what are the chances they actually have the gift of Gods holy spirit? I suggest all on here who believe the holy spirit is a person should start looking at all the scriptures that speak of the holy spirit and stop parroting the same few scriptures over and over again that show personification.
YES YES YESAMEN
We have all been totaly brain washed
Who can speck with a clear trumpet sound these days
All you guys doing well I find no better anywhere
But still we are not their with cinfidencecharity
Quote YES YES YES AMEN
We have all been totaly brain washed
Who can speck with a clear trumpet sound these days
All you guys doing well I find no better anywhere
But still we are not their with cinfidencecharity
So…what are you trying to say?
A couple posts up, I wrote:
Quote “We have a jar full of our own spirit first.”
Charity, I still have no idea what you believe. Why is that?If the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for the battle? as the scripture says.
While your words are pretty, I still don't know what you believe.
Is the holy spirit a part of the trinity, a person, worshipped, God?Your thoughts?
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,08:51) “We have a jar full of our own spirit first.”
Charity, I still have no idea what you believe. Why is that?If the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for the battle? as the scripture says.
While your words are pretty, I still don't know what you believe.
Is the holy spirit a part of the trinity, a person, worshipped, God?
A body is a house, flesh and bone diesMy words are not commin, It may take a bit to get to know me david
I can absorb alot, and hold it
I will make an effort to be peacfull
charity
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,09:11) So in answer to my question……
In order to know what a person is about you must be patient?Why do you press me, I have said as I have said, if you don't hear it then so be done, maybe not for the hearing
Not the time neither mine for that revlation.If I have more to say I will
charity
Another thought
We have had our house cleaned of evil spirits by Christm all washed clean by christ
Their for if the house remains empty the evil spirit can enter back in with 7 worse than its self
But if the house has been occupied by a godly it cannot move in it has reserved for a king to live in
Quote Again, the fact that option “a” is a possibility, I do not dismiss. But other statments demand that it must be option “b.”
Yes, there are scriptures that speak of spirits as being persons, obviously.
Of course, this proves nothing, because the word spirit is also used without personality: “the spirit of the world,” for example. Is this a person? No.
So, again, we are left with option “a” or “b.” Neither what you just said or what I just said can prove anything by itself. It could go either way. But all the other mountain, or actually mountains of evidence point to option “b,” namely, that the holy spirit is not a person.David
We are talking about the Spirit of God!
Surely if we can ascibe peronality to every other Spirit being in the universe, then we can ascribe personality to Gods Spirit!
What gives? Why is it such an offensive thing to say Gods Spirit is personal?
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