- This topic has 6,304 replies, 115 voices, and was last updated 2 years ago by
.
- Posts
Hi Buster. So I noticed you didn't attempt to answer any of my questions.
I wonder how much, if any of my posts you've read. Have you read them?
Quote Group: Members
Posts: 157
Joined: Dec. 2006
Posted: Dec. 31 2006,12:37 QUOTE
Is the Holy Spirit a Distinct Person Apart from the Father and the Son?What is a person?
“Any human being considered as a distinct entity or personality; an individual.” Funk and Wagnall’s Dictionary.And what is personality?
“Distinctive qualities or characteristics of a person….That which constitutes a person; personal existence.” Fund and Wagnall’s Dictionary.So a person is one that has a personality whose distinctive qualities shows them to be an entity which differs from other beings. Now what would be some distinctive qualities or characteristics that would prove one to be a person or being? If they have a mind, can think for themselves, and can make decisions. If they can act for themselves; if they can speak for themselves; etc. All these things would clearly reveal their distinctive qualities which shows that they have their own personality and thus distinguishes them to be a person and being. And the same for the Holy Spirit!
Now there is no Bible text which plainly states in these words: “The Holy Spirit is a person”, but neither are there texts which state plainly state in this words: “The Father is a person”. Yet we can clearly see that the Bible declares that the Father can think, decide, act, and can speak for Himself. Thus we know that the Father has a distinct personality all his own and that He must indeed be a Person and Being. So if the Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit can think, decide, act and speak for Himself, then this would prove that He has a distinct personality all his own, and that the Holy Spirit must indeed be a Person and Being other than the Father and the Son.
Can the Holy Spirit Think for Itself and Make its Own Decisions?
–The Holy Spirit has a mind (see Romans 8:27).
–The Holy Spirit helped to settle questions during the Church Council at Jerusalem (see Acts 15:28).
–The Holy Spirit dispenses gifts to different individuals according as He wills (see 1 Corinthians 12:8-11).
–The Holy Spirit forbade some from going to preach in certain places (see Acts 16:6-7).So we can see that the Holy Spirit has a mind, can think for Itself and can make Its own decisions. But can the Holy Spirit act for Itself?
Can the Holy Spirit Act for Itself?
–The Holy Spirit anointed Jesus and sent Him out to preach the gospel (see Luke 4:18-19); In fact, both
the Father and the Holy Spirit sent Jesus (see Isaiah 48:16).
–The Holy Spirit testifies or witnesses of Jesus (see John 15:26).
–The Holy Spirit leads God’s people (see Romans 8:14).
–The Holy Spirit teaches and causes us to remember the truth (John 14:26).
–The Holy Spirit comforts us as does Christ (John 14:16).
–The Holy Spirit strives with us (see Genesis 6:3).
–The Holy Spirit reproves us of sin, righteousness, and judgment (see John 16:8-11).
–The Holy Spirit instructs us (see Nehemiah 9:20).So we can see that the Holy Spirit can act for Itself, and can bear Its own witness. But can the Holy Spirit speak for Itself?
Can the Holy Spirit Speak for Itself?
–The Holy Spirit speaks, guides, hears and shows (John 16:13-15).
–The Holy Spirit speaks, chooses, calls and sends forth (see Acts 13:1-4).
–The Holy Spirit gives messages to prophets and they declare: “Thus saith the Holy Ghost” (see Acts
21:11).So we can see that the Holy Spirit can indeed speak for Itself. Besides this, He can hear, He can guide, show, choose, calls and sends forth others. Now what other characteristics does the Bible reveal about the Holy Spirit which shows it to be a Person and Being other than God–the Father and God–the Son?
–The Holy Spirit has knowledge, and searches all things (see 1 Corinthians 2:10-11).
–The Holy Spirit sanctifies us (see Romans 15:16).
–The Holy Spirit holds communion with us (see 2 Corinthians 13:14); and so does Christ (see 1
Corinthians 1:9).
–The Holy Spirit is the source of regeneration and renewal for salvation (see John 3:5-8; Titus 3:5).
–The Holy Spirit resurrects the faithful from the dead (see Romans 8:11; 1 Peter 3:18).
–The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible and moved upon the prophets to speak (see 2 Peter 1:21).
–The Holy Spirit is another Comforter other than Christ (see John 14:16).
–The Holy Spirit helps our infirmities (see Romans 8:26).
–The Holy Spirit can be tempted and lied to (see Acts 5:3, 9).
–The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed and sinned against (see Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10; Matthew 12:31).
–The Holy Spirit is another Intercessor other than Christ (see Romans 8:26); The Spirit intercedes for us
through prayer, while Christ intercedes for us through His precious blood, merits and righteousness.All of these things show conclusively that the Holy Spirit is indeed a Person and Being, and that He has His own work to perform in the plan of Redemption, other than the Father and the Son.
Since the Bible has proven that the Holy Spirit is a Person and Being Himself, other than the Father and the Son, He also must be able to assume form and shape.
The Holy Spirit assumed the form and shape resembling a dove (Matthew 3:16, Isaiah 11:2, Luke 3:22, John 1:32). He assumed the form and shape resembling flaming tongues (Acts 2:2-4). He literally picked up servants of God from one area and then carried them to a different area in order to continue the spreading of the truth (see Acts 8:39-40; Ezekiel 3:14-15).
If anyone wants to check out the site that CB cut and pasted this from, it is here: http://www.lightministries.com/id1297.htm
Quote If anyone wants to check out the site that CB cut and pasted this from, it is here: http://www.lightministries.com/id1297.htm Thanks David. Good website!
Quote (digger @ July 11 2004,19:22) Question: The Spirit with no PERSONAL NAME If the Holy spirit is the third person in a trinity why does the Holy Spirit not possess a personal name after all the Father has a personal name: Jehovah/Yahweh and the Son of God has a personal name Jesus and He was also named Michael the Archangel Thess 4:16 in His former existence.
Yet search through the scriptures and you will find there is no personal name for the Holy Spirit which proves there is only ONE TRUE GOD the Father and only ONE LORD JESUS the SON of the Father. Therefore the Holy Spirit is God's power/force and love but not a person.
But back to the original question… heheWhy is it that this should be a problem? In the beginning there was God consisting of YHWH, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit.
God's name has changed. We now call Him Father.
The Word of God's name has changed, we now call Him Jesus (although He will ALWAYS be the Word of God)
But the Holy Spirit has not had a name change. Does that make Him any less? It does not!As for Jesus being the Archangel Michael…. no. This theory is not supported in Scripture or by the Holy Spirit, Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.
Quote hello pot, meet kettle….. I'm not saying it's wrong to cut and paste something down from a website. It's just I don't even think he read what he cut and pasted.
Is 1:18, I don't think you realize that I have files on just about everything. What I've posted on the holy spirit didn't come from a website for example. It came from much research and organization on my part. The research did involve looking at websites, but you won't find anything like what CB has done. In fact, with the holy spirit posts I've put down, you won't be able to find anything at all.
But you google: “holy spirit is a person” and the third website you'll find is the one that he copied and pasted from. What I'm saying is:
“I don't think he knows anything.”
He knows how to copy and paste.He doesn't seem to be able to have a conversation with me or reason. Cutting and pasting is his only game. That's the difference.
david
Quote As for Jesus being the Archangel Michael…. no. This theory is not supported in Scripture or by the Holy Spirit, Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come. Hi Oxy.
Please go back and read my post on page 66, “The Helper–he, him.”Actually, read everything I wrote. I'd like any comments on them you can make.
Now that I've obliterated the “holy spirit is person and God” theory and therefore the trinity doctrine itself, what else should we discuss?
I'm not sure if it will show up in the quote, but OXY has bolded all the “he's” and “him's” in these words:
“However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.”
DOES THIS PROVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON?
A HELPER–“he” “his,” “him”
Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive parakletos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns (ie: “him”). On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun (“it”) to refer to the holy spirit, pneu?ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with para?kletos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.Most Trinitarian translators hide this fact, as the Catholic New American Bible admits regarding John 14:17: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”
David
Quote I wonder how much, if any of my posts you've read. Have you read them?
Yes. They amount to dancing around the scriptures.
You left this out when you quoted my post
The Holy Spirit is God
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land?
5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.Mathew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Blasphemy can only be committed against God)
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God (the Holy Ghost) in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God (the Holy Spirit) , and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Where do you reckon I got this from?
The HOLY SPIRIT (a Person) is endowed with very “personal” characteristics like:
Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.
(John 14:26) “for He will teach you all things”.
1 Cor. 2:13,14 He teaches us spiritual things, helping us to discern spiritual things
(1 Cor. 12:11),He makes decisions –deciding who gets what spiritual gift
He has emotions and can be grieved (Eph. 4:30)
Romans 8:26 “The Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.(John 16:8) He convicts of sin, of righteousness and judgment
Rev. 22:17
He invites people to “come” (Matt. 12:31, Mark 3:29) He can be sinned and blasphemed against, which can lead to the unpardonable sin
“The Spirit Himself bears witness…. that we are children of God (Romans 8:16
He speaks (Acts 8:29)
teaches (Luke 12:12)
reveals (Luke 2:26)
testifies (Acts 20:23)
searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11)
He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4)
He commands and guides (Acts 8:29)
He declares things to come (John 16:13)
In John chapters 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person. In John 14:16 He calls Him the Comforter (Parakletos), which is a title which could only be held by a person.Here's another one.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Who is the creator?
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Quote (david @ Jan. 03 2007,00:31) Quote As for Jesus being the Archangel Michael…. no. This theory is not supported in Scripture or by the Holy Spirit, Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come. Hi Oxy.
Please go back and read my post on page 66, “The Helper–he, him.”Actually, read everything I wrote. I'd like any comments on them you can make.
Now that I've obliterated the “holy spirit is person and God” theory and therefore the trinity doctrine itself, what else should we discuss?
lol, David, you have obliterated nothing except in your own mind. The Holy Spirit hears, speaks, comforts, teaches, guides, etc etc.I had this out with some JW's that came to the door a while ago and actually saw light open the eyes of one of them.
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image,
Should both speak?
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.Remember God has also given the beast Life, unless you think he can do it himself? No he is cashing in on Gods grace! And he shall do wickedly, the gift of the Holy Ghost is held only by those who enter the kingdom, it is not any that just say……. My Lord My LORD
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
We are in the Day’s of ….Me! Myself and I
I HOPE THAT AS MANY AS POSIBLE WILL Complete their adoption to wit and become the true Sons of dieing Day by day to their own pride and will.
A sincere search for truth is righteous before God
Talking Good, but using peoples heads as stairs is pride even from the beginning it has caused havoc, no presence of the holy spirit will dwell in an temple that is not been humble and self controlled towards revenge
Quote Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, Should both speak?
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.Remember God has also given the beast Life, unless you think he can do it himself? No he is cashing in on Gods grace! And he shall do wickedly, the gift of the Holy Ghost is held only by those who enter the kingdom, it is not any that just say……. My Lord My LORD
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
We are in the Day’s of ….Me! Myself and I
I HOPE THAT AS MANY AS POSIBLE WILL Complete their adoption to wit and become the true Sons of dieing Day by day to their own pride and will.
A sincere search for truth is righteous before God
Talking Good, but using peoples heads as stairs is pride even from the beginning it has caused havoc, no presence of the holy spirit will dwell in an temple that is not been humble and self controlled towards revenge
charity
Yes and we are also to put the whole armour of God on that we might fight against the principalities and powers and the lieing, decieving spirits that draw men into perdition by their swelling words of poison.
We are to be warriors and defenders of the faith and the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus, speaking his words of life by the Holy Spirit which will shed the light of this Glorious Gospel unto them so that they may see and hear the living words of truth and be saved, delivered, and set free from the false Christ.
These are serious times.
Eph 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].II Tim 4:
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
We must be ready to expose all error. For it is for the souls of men!II Cor 10:
4 For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.Titus 1:
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Hi WorshippingJesus
All respect to you, and others I have heard all say some Good things in part.
God dose not send babies to work, they cant walk yet?
they need milk, then as todlers they take a first step
A child again only seeing thriugh a dark glass, then when we have become a manWhy do people today want an easy way to receive the Holy Ghost?
They don’t want to suffer with Christ for reward, they hear this is free, and then they wander from desert to desert not satisfied.
Bearing witness we become co heirs of the inheritance
Have you become perfect in the flesh?
When that which is perfect comes part and part are done away with.
Do you deny Christ in the flesh an Angle of God?
I am confounded; I die day by day to my own will that Christ may be glorified within
In danger every day eternal existence by being deceivedcharity
Quote Hi WorshippingJesus All respect to you, and others I have heard all say some Good things in part.
God dose not send babies to work, they cant walk yet?
they need milk, then as todlers they take a first step
A child again only seeing thriugh a dark glass, then when we have become a manWhy do people today want an easy way to receive the Holy Ghost?
They don’t want to suffer with Christ for reward, they hear this is free, and then they wander from desert to desert not satisfied.
Bearing witness we become co heirs of the inheritance
Have you become perfect in the flesh?
When that which is perfect comes part and part are done away with.
Do you deny Christ in the flesh an Angle of God?
I am confounded; I die day by day to my own will that Christ may be glorified within
In danger every day eternal existence by being deceivedcharity
Sorry! I dont share your fear of “eternal existance by being decieved”.
The Father has sent his Holy Spirit of truth into my heart that will guide me and lead me into all truth.
So I with confidence like the Apostle Paul through faith say…
II Tim 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.And
Phil 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:Blessings
Quote lol, David, you have obliterated nothing except in your own mind. The Holy Spirit hears, speaks, comforts, teaches, guides, etc etc. Perhaps you didn't actually read what I wrote. As I said, we can speak of the BIBLE as teaching, comforting, guiding, speaking, etc too.
Does this mean the Bible is a person? We use this language all the time. Personfication is a universally understand use of language.
Personification in itself does not prove the holy spirit is a person any more than it does when used of wisdom, death, sin, the Bible or anything else.
Maybe if we didn't have a truckload of scriptures that spoke of the holy spirit in a way that absolutely restricts “it” from being a person, then you may have something with what you said. But the fact remains that we do. The fact remains that of the 30 or 40 troubling questions I asked, you haven't answered one.
These aren't the questions, but some things to think about:
–The Bible doesn't say the holy spirit is God.
–The Bible gives no indication that the holy spirt was worshipped.
–The Jews and the Hebrew Scriptures give no hint even that the holy spirit is a person.
–The holy spirit is left of a whole lot–knowing what God knows–being there pictured with Jesus and his Father in all the visions, etc.
–The holy spirit is never portrayed as a person, sitting on a throne for example…it's shown to be God's finger, his hand, a dove, fire, etc, etc….but never shown or pictured as a distinct person.
–It is without question given a secondary position in scripture. (John 17:3) All the greetings of the apostle Paul's letters, not to mention James, Peter and John open by saying something like: : “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) They seem to be unfamiliar with the third part of the trinity. Why?
–The holy spirit has no distinctive name unlike Jehovah and Jesus and everyone else.
–The holy spirit is God's holy spirit, “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” It is something God possesses.
–The capital letters in your Bible that show Holy Spirit mean absolutely nothing. The definite article “the” has also been added about 100 times to make it appear moreso to be a person. The greek word for spirit is neuter and most Greek manuscripts emply “it” with reference to the holy spirit.
–The holy spirit is used in parallel with very impersonal things–water and fire for example. Another example: “by purity, by knowledge, by long-suffering, by kindness, by holy spirit, by love free from hypocrisy.” (2 cor 6:4-6)
–You can be filled with holy spirit just as you can be filled with wisdom and faith or joy. Lumping the holy spirit in with impersonal things indicates a lack of personality.
–The holy spirit being part of a trinity was not really an established belief until a few hundred years after Christ, coincidentally, many other apostasy like changes had occured around this time.
–It's quite often spoken of in a way that indicates it is not a person. It is referred to as a “gift.” It is said to be divisible and able to be distributed.
It can ‘fill’ a person, and a person can be “full of holy spirit.” It can be “upon” him and envelop him. Holy spirit was ‘given,’ and ‘poured out upon,’ It can be quenched. People can drink of it. The holy spirit also renews us and must be stirred up within us. Some of God’s holy spirit can be taken from one person and given to another. The holy spirit can become operative upon someone, enabling him to perform superhuman feats.
People can be ‘baptized’ “in holy spirit”; and they can be “anointed” with it.
–In many passages, Jesus spoke of the relationship between himself and his Father. He doesn't do this of the holy spirit.As I said, obliterated.
I see that CB is still playing his one card: Yes CB, the holy spirit is spoken of in a way that people are spoken of. But it is also spoken of in ways that people are never spoken of. Therefore, when it is spoken of in ways that people are spoken of, it must be personification, something the Bible uses quite frequently.
David
Learning to hear the heart; can’t believe you answered this way
Fear is the beginning of wisdom
Having that any scripture is based and written to a level of maturity in The Lord, you may not give meat to a baby you will KILL it
Some for foolishness some for encouragement, and in what shape the heart is in it can use it to destroy or help grow.
But pride will not be happy with this it will want glory before Glory is earned, and for that the blood of the children shall learn their way
Quote The Father has sent his Holy Spirit of truth into my heart that will guide me and lead me into all truth. JOHN 14:17; 1 JOHN 4:6
If the “spirit of truth” in John 14:17 is a person, then I wonder what the “spirit of error” in 1 John 4:6 is. Since it is directly contrasted with the spirit of truth, I guess it must be a person too. No.The fact is that each “spirit” represents an influence or a power under which a person acts, but neither is a person in itself.
Quote Learning to hear the heart; can’t believe you answered this way Fear is the beginning of wisdom
Having that any scripture is based and written to a level of maturity in The Lord, you may not give meat to a baby you will KILL it
Some for foolishness some for encouragement, and in what shape the heart is in it can use it to destroy or help grow.
But pride will not be happy with this it will want glory before Glory is earned, and for that the blood of the children shall learn their way
Charity
False humility can also be a form of pride!
There is such a thing as “will worship”,
where men humble themselves through words or deeds to be seen of men or to satisfy the concience.Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
God knows the hearts. Sure we are to have a fear of the Lord which is respect, not a fear that torments, that my heavenly Father would allow deception or harm come to me if I trust him. That is not Godly revering fear?God is pleased when his children have Faith this is what pleases him.
Heb 4:
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].Heb 11:6
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.Why are you shocked at my responce. I thought my responce was one of faith and confidence in the One in whom I have believed!
Is this wrong?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
