The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[charity]

okay okay

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD.

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

Look the only way to receive God is by spirit, but first our spirit only bears witness with christs spirit that we are children then if children we are heris along with christ for Gods spirit

God is not a person even??

[charity]

Dose anyone know how Gods spirit works on earth even?

Who is the most highest that the throne God was established by? David

Whom and which father did Christ first take instructions from David from God?
By word of the spirit of prophecies given to holy and godly men?

Till even he was glorified with the new holy ghost after the baptism by John the Baptist

Humbled to the father first?

For that is what he leads us to do not forsaking the fathers and prophets?

Whatever guy’s…receive it God’s spirit as Christ did, perfected

Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.

Luk 13:34 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

And the world still not worthy of these even?
Hbr 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

None perfected without them the fathers also
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Col 3:14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

[charity]

heading towards recieving the spirit of God

Christ dose not teach righteousness, In fact so little is found in New testament towards righteousness that many people ask what dose righteous mean?, christ knows! that righteousness lays with his seed father David, and is obedient to him even, for that is where it was delivered to came from God to David
David is leader in righteousness, in our paths of judgment

Forsake not the fathers,

Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Pro 8:18 Riches and honour [are] with me; [yea], durable riches and righteousness.
Pro 8:19 My fruit [is] better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
Pro 8:20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

And this is why we seek david the king for his ways are going to santify us first in the path of judgment
HOSEA 3; 5 Afterwards shall the children of Isreal return and seek the lord their God, and David their King; and shall fear the Lord and his Goodness in the LATTER DAYS.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

[Worshipping Jesus]

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christ knows! that righteousness lays with his seed father David, and is obedient to him even, for that is where it was delivered to came from God to David David is leader in righteousness, in our paths of judgment And this is why we seek david the king for his ways are going to santify us first in the path of judgment HOSEA 3; 5 Afterwards shall the children of Isreal return and seek the lord their God, and David their King; and shall fear the Lord and his Goodness in the LATTER DAYS.

charity

What are you saying?

[charity]

Hi WorshippingJesus

I know its hard to hear

Forsake not the fathers

Its about David being a commader in these things….

It’s about moving the creation from corruption to incorruption

It’s about putting the new man on and how?

It’s about the sure mercy’s of David hearken and hear and soul shall

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David.

David a commander to follow
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

The Nations shall run to David for the holy one of Israel

Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Don’t come late

Isa 55:6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Don’t forsake David’s way

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

And this is why we seek david the king for his ways are going to santify us first in the path of judgment
HOSEA 3; 5 Afterwards shall the children of Isreal return and seek the lord their God, and David their King; and shall fear the Lord and his Goodness in the LATTER DAYS.

charity

[david]

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David[/B] Quote THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AS NOT BEING A PERSON. That is not the message of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is in very distinguished company Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Yes, very good Cult Buster. Your ability to count to three has not gone unnoticed. The fact that the King James which was written 400 years ago used the word “Ghost” proves nothing of course.

Also, after you quoted me as saying: “THERE ARE MANY SCRIPTURES WHICH SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AS NOT BEING A PERSON,” you go on to try to prove that the holy spirit is a person. Well that's not what I said. I said there are “many scriptures which speak of the holy spirit” in a way that indicates that it isn't a person. AND THIS IS TRUE.

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Mathew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. (Blasphemy can only be committed against God)

Really? WJ tried to use that reasoning on me. But all the dictionaries I checked say that blasphemy is against God OR something that is “sacred.” And guess what? One meaning of “sacred” is “holy” or to be “held holy.”
So, the holy spirit is obviously “holy,” and therefore, you can blaspheme it without it being God. At least, according to the dictionaries.

That's what the dictionaries say. If you can show me a scripture that says: “Blasphemy can only be against God,” then I guess you have a point. Until that moment, the definitions found in dictionaries say you are wrong. Sorry.

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1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God (the Holy Ghost) in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Here's a related scripture:
1 THESSALONIANS 4:8
“So, then, the man that shows disregard is disregarding, not man, but God, who PUTS HIS HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU.”

Since the Bibles speaks of ones being “filled with” holy spirit and it can be “poured out” on people, or be put in people, and reside in people as your scripture shows, this doesn't indicate personage.

You're not saying that this scripture says the holy spirit is God, are you???
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
This would be easier to not get you confused if it was in modern English. But let's look at it. “ye” or your body is the temple of the holy spirit (meaning that the holy spirit resides in you). Then it says: “which ye (you) have of (or from) God.
God is the one who supplies “his” holy spirit. Here, God is distinguished from His holy spirit. They are separate. The holy spirit is something God gives.

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1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God (the Holy Spirit) , and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Of course, the Bible itself doesn't have “(the Holy Spirit)” there.
Let's clarify.
“Jehovah is a spirit.” (John 4:24)
And Jehovah has his holy spirit. It's spoken of as being his, something he has, something that isn't him, but that he has.
Don't confuse the two.

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9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit (only God hath immortality) offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Which scripture is this?

At this point, I'd like to note that I don't think you're going to answer my question. I asked a couple times how many times the holy spirit is clearly called “God.” Jehovah is clearly specifically called God at least a thousand times. Where is the equal number of times the holy spirit is called God?

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The HOLY SPIRIT (a Person) is endowed with very “personal” characteristics like: Intelligence and knowledge, feelings and teaching ability.

Yes, and wisdom and death and sin, etc also have personal characteristics. And, the holy spirit also has very unpersonal characteristics, as I've already shown.

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He speaks (Acts 8:29) teaches (Luke 12:12) reveals (Luke 2:26) testifies (Acts 20:23) searches (1 Cor. 2:10,11) He sets people apart for service and sends them on their way (Acts 13:2,4) He commands and guides (Acts 8:29) He declares things to come (John 16:13)

Don't forget all the impersonal things that it does.
As I said:
“You can be baptized “in holy spirit”, and “filled with spirit,” annointed with it, it can be “poured out” etc.) Notice too the way it is used in association with other impersonal things (Mt 3:10, Mr 1:8) You can be “filled” with it, along with such qualities as wisdom and faith (Ac 6:3, 5; 11:24) or joy (Ac 13:52) and holy spirit is inserted, or sandwiched in, with a number of such qualities at 2 Corinthians 6:6.
–It is most unlikely that such expressions would be made if the holy spirit were a divine person.
–As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8.
–While some texts refer to the spirit as ‘witnessing,’ ‘speaking,’ or ‘saying’ things, other texts make clear that it spoke through persons, having no personal voice of its own. (Compare Heb 3:7; 10:15-17; Ps 95:7; Jer 31:33, 34; Ac 19:2-6; 21:4; 28:25.)”

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In John chapters 14-16 Christ referred to the Holy Spirit 24 times with personal PRONOUNS. HE, HIM. He addresses the Holy Spirit as a person, and treats Him as a person. In John 14:16 He calls Him the Comforter (Parakletos), which is a title which could only be held by a person.

It is true that it is definitly personified in these chapters. Does it treat the holy spirit as a person throughout these chapters?
14:17: the spirit is with you AND IN YOU. (Are people usually in other people?)

As I said before:
Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa
ra?kletos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneu?ma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneu?ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with para?kletos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.
In other words, if he personified it, then he was just conforming to rules of grammer by haveing the “he's” etc. when referring to God's holy spirit.

Anyway, what do you think of what I actually wrote? You didn't seem to comment on anything or attempt to answer any of the questions.

david

[charity]

My thoughts

Tell someone that cares? I mean hears?

Basically anyone that has Recieved the Holy Spirit has the knowledge of where and how he received it, and is not found floundering around with guesses?

What do you think?

And anyone that decides to baptize another should at least believe John the Baptize was Elijah? Before baptizing after him?

Or he may as well be just dunking your head in water OTHERWISE?

So it may not be a benefit to allow someone to baptize you that cannot announce yes…..to this question
Are you out of you sins?
And if the answers is no, for then he is a blind man baptizing for remission of sin that knows not even if he his cleansed himself?

A fool???

charity

[charity]

Not able to recieve the holy spirit day's

Virgins with lamps even, but none with extra gars of oil, for when the bride groom comes they are found left behind the doors closed even.

No Instruction on righteousness found NO COMMANDER?

Amo 8:11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it].

Amo 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

Amo 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

Carity

[Worshipping Jesus]

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Hi WorshippingJesus I know its hard to hear Forsake not the fathers Its about David being a commader in these things…. It’s about moving the creation from corruption to incorruption It’s about putting the new man on and how? It’s about the sure mercy’s of David hearken and hear and soul shall Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, [even] the sure mercies of David. David a commander to follow Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him [for] a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. The Nations shall run to David for the holy one of Israel Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation [that] thou knowest not, and nations [that] knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee. Don’t come late Isa 55:6 ¶ Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Don’t forsake David’s way Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. And this is why we seek david the king for his ways are going to santify us first in the path of judgment HOSEA 3; 5 Afterwards shall the children of Isreal return and seek the lord their God, and David their King; and shall fear the Lord and his Goodness in the LATTER DAYS. charity

charity

The prophesys spoken of David have their fulfillment in Jesus who is of the seed of David.

[charity]

Hi WorshippingJesus

have you considered this

The seed of David that formed Christ, was a seed of the bows of mercy, not the seed of man and woman joining;
eg Solomon is the seed of man of woman David’s Son.

The seed of offspring is the seed that is preserved for resurrection of life; Jesus said I am the resurrection of life!

charity

[david]

Is there anything on the holy spirit in the main page area that discusses the trinity (ie, not the forum part)?

[david]

Ok. I've looked at everything. (It took a few days.) I'm pretty sure I just did it–proved that the holy spirit is not a part of the trinity and hence the trinity doctrine is wrong.

(So we can stop discussing the trinity now.)

I've noticed that so far, really, it's only been those who believe God is a trinity posting what they think are proofs that the holy spirit is a person. We really haven't looked at the Bible as a whole and the other side of the coin.

I think I have covered everything. I don't know how any reasonably person could come to any other conclusion.

I think I shall post this in pieces. Here goes:

[david]

Does the Bible teach that the holy spirit is a person? Does God’s word say that the holy spirit is God?

The fact that the Word of God does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.
The correct identification of the holy spirit must fit all the scriptures that refer to that spirit.

How many times are we told that the holy spirit is God?

Expressions we find in the Bible:
Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 time

Does the Bible ever say: “the holy spirit is my God,” or “holy spirit the God” or “the holy spirit my God”?
Because expressions such as this occur 1000 times with reference to Jehovah.

Does the expression: “the holy spirit your God” occur 455 times, as it does of “Jehovah your God”?

Why is it that no scripture says clearly and plainly that the holy spirit is God?

It is because it is clear and plain that God’s holy spirit, is not God.

Again, I ask:
HOW MANY TIMES ARE WE TOLD THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD?

In Theological Investigations, Karl Rahner, S.J., admits: “Θ?ε?ό?ς? [God] is still never used of the Spirit,” and: “ο? θ?ε?ό?ς? [literally, the God] is never used in the New Testament to speak of the π?ν?ε?υ?μα? α?γ?ι?ο?ν? [holy spirit].”—(Baltimore, Md.; 1961), translated from German, Vol. I, pp. 138, 143.

[david]

MATTHEW 28:19–WHAT DOESN’T IT SAY?

This text does not say that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequal or coeternal or that all are God. All it proves is one’s ability to count to three. Yippee. “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” or “Peter, James and John” are mentioned together in groups of three many times, way more than the supposed trinity. The fact that the Father, Son and holy spirit are only found mentioned in the same place only once or twice is almost an argument against the trinity!

McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, though advocating the Trinity doctrine, acknowledges regarding Matthew 28:18-20:
“This text, however, taken by itself, would not prove decisively either the personality of the three subjects mentioned, or their equality or divinity.” (1981 reprint, Vol. X, p. 552)
If it doesn’t prove any of these things, what does it prove? 1, 2…Yes, you can count to 3. I’ll give you that. Regarding other texts that also mention the three together, this Cyclopedia, which advocates the trinity, admits that taken by themselves, they are “insufficient” to prove the Trinity.
As well, if you argue that the holy spirit is listed with the Father and Son and they are persons, so the holy spirit must be a person, then the same rule would apply when it is listed with impersonal things, and that is often. One example: As to the spirit’s ‘bearing witness’ (Ac 5:32; 20:23), it may be noted that the same thing is said of the water and the blood at 1 John 5:6-8. Maybe the holy spirit is also a trinity with water and blood.
At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name . . . of the holy spirit.” But the word “name” does not always mean a personal name, either in Greek or in English. When we say “in the name of the law,” we are not referring to a person. We mean that which the law stands for, its authority. Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” So baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will.

[david]

WHY DOESN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT KNOW WHAT GOD KNOWS? WHERE IS HE IN THIS VERSE?

MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”

Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, WHY DID THE HOLY SPIRIT NOT KNOW?

The Holy Spirit is conspicuously missing from this statement, just as it is missing from in the many visions seen of God and Jesus below:

A PERSON CAN BE PORTRAYED BY THE IMAGE OF A PERSON–AS JEHOVAH AND JESUS ARE, YET FOR SOME REASON….

For some reason, even though we see visions of God as sitting on a throne and Jesus, such representations of God’s holy spirit are never given AND WHENEVER WE LOOK AT SUCH VISIONS, THE HOLY SPIRIT SEEMS TO BE MISSING…FOR SOME REASON.
Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. (Acts 7:55,56)
Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw “Jesus standing at God’s right hand.” But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit.
No holy spirit is mentioned in this vision because it was not any third person of a Trinity.
In Daniel chapter 7 he describes a wonderful vision Jehovah gave to him: “the Ancient of Days” on his heavenly throne, with a multitude of angels ministering to him. Daniel saw also “someone like a son of man [Jesus],” who was given “rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him.” (Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14) What, though, about the holy spirit? It is not mentioned as a person in this celestial scene.
The final book of the Bible—Revelation, (which means: “unveiling, uncovering)—describes other remarkable heavenly visions. The Supreme Being, Jehovah, is depicted there on his throne, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is with him. But, again, the holy spirit is not mentioned as a distinct person. (Revelation, chapters 4–6) So even the final Bible book does not reveal that there are three persons in one god.
It seems whenever there are visions or images given of the Father and Son, for some reason the holy spirit is not seen or represented and definitely not portrayed as a person. Why is that?
Along the same line….

[david]

SECONDARY POSITION IN THE SCRIPTURES

Adding to the above post: How could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given a secondary position in the Scriptures?
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3, NW.
Where is the holy spirit in this? While speaking of the importance of taking in knowledge, and everlasting life, where is the mention of this supposed third of the trinity?
The apostle Paul in the opening of his letters often used expressions like this: “May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 1:7) Why did he not mention the holy spirit as a person? Because Paul knew nothing of the “Holy Trinity.”
James, Peter, and John used similar phrases in their letters where they likewise do not mention the holy spirit. Why? Because they were not Trinitarians either.

[david]

NO DISTINCTIVE NAME, UNLIKE JEHOVAH AND JESUS, AND EVERYONE ELSE
That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name.
The Bible never speaks of the holy spirit in the same way that it speaks of God or of Jesus. For example, in the Bible, the holy spirit does not have a personal name.
Is that just an insignificant detail? No, names are important in the Bible. God stressed the importance of his own name when he said: “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8) The importance of Jesus Christ’s name was emphasized before his birth when an angel told Mary: “You are to call his name Jesus.” (Luke 1:31)
If the names of the Father and of the Son are so important, why does the holy spirit not have a personal name? Surely, this detail alone should make a person wonder whether the spirit is really equal to the Father and the Son.

[david]

“THE HOLY SPIRIT”
Jehovah God, the Creator, the Father, the Most High, the Almighty, has many distinctive appellations. He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one “only-begotten Son,” only one “First-born,” only one Logos or “Word.”
Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit “The holy spirit”?
If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy?

[david]

USED POSSESSIVELY
More than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as “the spirit of Jehovah,” “God’s spirit,” “my spirit” and “spirit of Jesus Christ.”
All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.—Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19; Ps 51:11; Joel 2:28,29

[david]

LOCATION
And note still another point, that of location. The Bible tells us that God dwells in heaven, that he holds court there. Also that Jesus in his prehuman existence was rejoicing in his Father’s presence, that he came to earth to perform special missions, especially at the time he came as a man, and that he has now returned to heaven. Where was or where is the holy spirit now if it is a person? Did “he” come down upon Jesus at Jordan and then remain, or return and then come again at Pentecost? Is “he” now in heaven with God and Christ, or is “he” scattered throughout the earth wherever Christ’s followers are to be found?

[Author]

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