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t8 said:
Quote Jesus is not good only God is. That means that Jesus is not the source of good, but the recipent of it. All that he has that is good is given to him by God his Father. He was simply acknowledging that it is God who has done all that they saw Jesus do. He also said that I only do what the Father does, so he is trying to give all the glory that men gave to him, to God his Father. He was simply acknowledging where his good came from. Well said. God must ALWAYS be given the glory, else we are not serving Him, but ourselves.
Quote (bic @ Feb. 22 2005,01:57) Nick Hassan said: Quote Godlessness is punished and all who do not obey the Son…eternally. Surely this doesn't mean that you believe in the eternal torment of sinners? This doctrine is ever bit as heinous and equally pernicious as the Trinity doctrine. We have Dante Alighieri to thank for such preposterous pagan beliefs as purgatory and this eternal torment doctrine. The verse you posted rejects this foolishness unequivocally: “…These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction…. Destruction has never meant eternal life in a lake of fire and never will. Is there a separate thread dealing with this horrific doctrine? If so, please lead the way…I have much to say about Hades, hell, Gehenna, and the lake of fire…and the final destination of lost sinners.
Hi bic,You might be interested in the following writing called:
Do the wicked burn in hell forever?There is also a discussion about this subject at the following location:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….=1;t=43Any feedback on this subject is also appreciated.
Quote (bic @ Feb. 21 2005,07:35) Quote The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. In some versions of the bible the Spirit is personified as “He” or “Him” and “His” -in fact abouit 16 times in Jn 14-16. But in fact I understand that is not correct as the word used would be better as “it”
Personifying the word gives the impression that the Spirit is a person separate from the FatherQuote Since the Holy Spirit is used in a possessive context so many times (His Spirit, etc.), one can only wonder how the deception of the Trinity could have lasted so long. Bic, Nick
If the Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit, how do you explain these verses?Gal 4:6
6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”Acts 16
7When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas.Rom 8
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.2 Co 3
16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with everincreasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.Php 1
19for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.1 Pe 1
11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.Clarification would be appreciated.
To Modem Mouth,
If God is Spirit and if man has a spirit, then why wouldn't Christ have a spirit too. After all is that not how we become one with God, (in spirit). Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus and we are in Jesus and he in us and we (church) are in God and God is in us.
Now if we are the branches and Christ is the vine and the vine is tendered to by the vine dresser, then if we receive the spirit of Christ, do we not receive the Spirit of God for they are one in spirit and they want us to be one with them.
It is written that you cannot have God without the son and the son without God. It is also written that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah and we know that Christ came in the Spirit of God. But do we not receive God too when we recieve Christ. So if we have Christ's spirit then we also have God's Spirit and we are one.
But with all this talk of oneness, we have to remember that in identity there is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. We are who we are even if we are one in spirit with God. Being one in spirit does not mean a loss of identity for surely we have a soul and Christ has a soul.
If we understand the difference between identity and spirit, then most of the confusion is gone. This is what the Trinity doctrine fails to see. It says that all who are divine are God and therefore because Christ is divine, he must be God. But that doctrine fails to realise that we too can partake of the divine nature and yet we will never be God, but gods. Divinity is the nature of the Divine. We too can receive that nature. But the Divine himself is the Father. He is the one true God from which all divinity comes.
It stands to reason that all those born of God will have his nature. Just as we are men by nature by Adam the prototype man, we are also divine in nature when we are born from God. For we become like our parent. Like Father like son as the saying goes.
We need to distinguish between nouns and adjectives. E.g. even though God and godliness are similar in meaning, one is a person and the other is a quality. One can only be applied to the Father and the other can be applied to Christ, Men and all who do the will of God. If we can understand the difference we will not be so easily deceived with the Trinity doctrine.
Another example is that God is the Father of all spirits and he is Spirit. So there are many spirits (even we have a spirit), but there is one True Spirit from which all spirits originate.
Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.Revelation 1:5
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.Hi bic,
Yes i would welcome more truth on the matter of eternal destruction as I have asked for in previous posts.
I realise that Hades is only a place of waiting as in Lk 16 with Lazarus and the rich man. Hades is cast into the pool of fire as it has no more use after the judgement.The second death is one issue.
Gehenna and the pool of fire prepared for the devil and his angels is another one.
Those outside the gates of the new Jerusalem is another.
The warnings from Jesus that it is better to cut off your hand than let it cause us to sin.
The warning too to fear Him who can cast body and soul can into hell.
What wisdom can you shed on these matters?
Hi MM,
Good work. I too have been pondering these verses to see if when scripture says “the spirit of Christ ” it means exactly what it says.
We know that Jesus was just like us.
So according to 1Thess 5 he was body, soul and spirit.We know he was not filled with the Spirit of God till his baptism, just as we can be, so he had his own spirit as well just as we do.
So references to the spirit of Christ may not mean the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of his Father?
It does fit with the promises spoken about Jesus himself and his personal relationship with his followers.
Jn 14″ I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you”
“I will disclose myself to you”“If anyone loves me he will keep my Word and my Father will love him and WE WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM”
Jn 16″ ..a little while and you will see me”
” I will see you again”Who knows more and can help here?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,17:35) Hi MM, Good work. I too have been pondering these verses to see if when scripture says “the spirit of Christ ” it means exactly what it says.
We know that Jesus was just like us.
So according to 1Thess 5 he was body, soul and spirit.We know he was not filled with the Spirit of God till his baptism, just as we can be, so he had his own spirit as well just as we do.
So references to the spirit of Christ may not mean the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of his Father?
It does fit with the promises spoken about Jesus himself and his personal relationship with his followers.
Jn 14″ I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you”
“I will disclose myself to you”“If anyone loves me he will keep my Word and my Father will love him and WE WILL COME TO HIM AND MAKE OUR ABODE WITH HIM”
Jn 16″ ..a little while and you will see me”
” I will see you again”Who knows more and can help here?
The Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing.It is the same as saying the Flesh of Adam and the flesh of Eve are the same thing. They are both ultimately the flesh of Adam as Adam proclaims in Genesis 2.
Spirit of Christ is a specific reference to the risen Christ's personal share of the Spirit of God just as flesh of Eve is a specific reference to Eve's personal share of the flesh of Adam.
Spirit of God is the kind of Spirit the risen Jesus is by nature, just as the Flesh of Adam is the kind of flesh Eve is by nature.
God the Father and the risen Jesus are both Holy Spirit just as Adam and Eve are both the flesh of Adam. Jesus' selfsame physical body is now a spiritual body made alive by Holy Spirit where Spirit and flesh have become one new creation, one new kind of humanity, one new nature, one thing without any horizon between Spirit and flesh such that the two have become one new thing.
“The Lord IS the Spirit” (2 Corinthians 3:17; see 1 Cor 15:45).
Hi BE,
The only problem with your reasoning is that ultimately the spirit in all of us came from God. But we do not naturally have the Holy Spirit but our own spirit and Jesus did too. So it is possible some of the scriptures may relate to his natural spirit and we need to discern which ones.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,18:50) Hi BE,
The only problem with your reasoning is that ultimately the spirit in all of us came from God. But we do not naturally have the Holy Spirit but our own spirit and Jesus did too. So it is possible some of the scriptures may relate to his natural spirit and we need to discern which ones.
Well, the preceding context of 2 Corinthians 3:17 illustrates quite clearly that it most certainly does not refer to “his own spirit” but to the Holy Spirit.And neither does 1 Corinthians 15:45. That is plainly evident from the rest of the NT and Paul's own theology which illustrate Jesus was raised by and in the power of the Spirit of God the Father. Same idea at Acts 2:33.
And a comparison of Galatians 4:6 and Romans 8:14-15 clearly demonstrates Paul is talking about the very same thing: Holy Spirit = “Spirit of God's Son.”
We have more than ample evidence from the NT to understand what is meant and what is not.
All we need to do here is fully understand the nature of the resurrection body as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 15 and then things fall into place very quickly.
Hi BE,
Looking more closely at those scriptures. I could be wrong but this is my read.
2Cor 3.16f
“But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit;and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty”Now this scripture to me reads best if the Lord is the Lord of Lords, the Father. God is spirit. The Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.
1Cor 15 45
” ….The last Adam became a life giving spirit”
It does not say he became the Holy Spirit but a life giving spirit.
Acts 2.33
” Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God , and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,he has poured forth this which you both see and hear”
Now Jesus himself had been filled with the Spirit prior to his death and resurrection so it does not relate to that but to being given the Spirit to give to us as he had promised.Romans 8. 9
” However you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who indwells you”This could read to me but I am not sure..
The Spirit of God dwells in us christians.
We need the spirit of Christ too.
God raised Christ.
If we have the spirit of Christ we will share in that resurrection of Christ too.lets keep looking.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,19:51) Hi BE,
Looking more closely at those scriptures. I could be wrong but this is my read.
2Cor 3.16f
“But whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit;and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty”Now this scripture to me reads best if the Lord is the Lord of Lords, the Father. God is spirit. The Spirit is the Spirit of the Father.
1Cor 15 45
” ….The last Adam became a life giving spirit”
It does not say he became the Holy Spirit but a life giving spirit.
Acts 2.33
” Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God , and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,he has poured forth this which you both see and hear”
Now Jesus himself had been filled with the Spirit prior to his death and resurrection so it does not relate to that but to being given the Spirit to give to us as he had promised.Romans 8. 9
” However you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him. And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who indwells you”This could read to me but I am not sure..
The Spirit of God dwells in us christians.
We need the spirit of Christ too.
God raised Christ.
If we have the spirit of Christ we will share in that resurrection of Christ too.lets keep looking.
Hi Nick:The term “the Lord' here at 2 Corinthians 3:17 is always Paul's way of referring to Jesus. To claim otherwise is to not only go against the grain but to go against the context.
Secondly, if we went the Trinitarian route for example and make the same claim as you are here, one would then be caught saying the Father is the Holy Spirit if we chose to say the Lord in this passage is the Father, and this would be contradicting their own theology.
Third, it is plain that the two phrases where only in CHRIST is the veil removed and only when one turns to the LORD, the veil is taken away, are referring to the same person. The contextual evidence here is overwhelming for identifying “the Lord” here as Jesus Christ if you look at it closesly.
Next, the fact that you chose to write the word as “spirit” instead of “Spirit” does not thereby mean the word is indeed “spirit” at 1 Corinthians 15:45. Capitalization conventions did not exist in Paul's day. So what did he mean? The Biblical evidence illustrates he did mean the Holy Spirit since Jesus was raised in the Spirit, that is, the power of God. Very same idea at Acts 2:33 where Peter is referring to the fact that Jesus rose from the dead in the Holy Spirit which he also now could pour out onto the disciples due to this fact.
As for Romans 8, notice carefully that the Holy Spirit is in view and that the HS intercedes for us and this is equated with Christ interceding for us (verse 34). This is because the Lord Jesus IS the Spirit as Paul also says in 2 Corinthians 3:17. the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of God's Son and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing because Holy Spirit is his risen nature bodily. Holy Spirit IS the fullness (pleroma) of deity in him bodily (Col 2:9). Holy Spirit IS the divine nature of God (2 Peter 1:4; compare Heb 6:4). And tbecause he Holy Spirit IS the divine nature in which we now partake, it is how we too are “made full” (pleroo) in our walk with God (Colossians 2:10) just as Jesus has the fullness of deity in him bodily. Jesus had this fullness like we now do when he walked this earth but now he has this fullness bodily and through him we can walk in the same fullness he walked and this is Paul's point here. At Col 2:10 Paul explains that we also have this fullness of the Spirit because we too have been raised with Christ who is bodily the fullness of God, that is, he is bodily the fullness of the Holy Spirit of the Holy God because his body became that Spirit by nature, and because we have been raised with him who bodily has this fullness, we IN HIM also have the fullness of the Spirit that is poured into our hearts.
We human souls are bodies of dust that are now kept alive by a spirit in us. God the father of the spirits of all flesh. Our hope of glory is for these bodies to become Holy Spirit. We are holy ones of God insofar as we walk according to the Spirit in our hearts. See especially Romans 8:11-13, 17. And if we do walk this way, then we will bodily become that Spirit by nature when we are raised from the dead. This is Paul's point at Romans 8:11-25.
Hi BE,
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and God is Spirit. But you says Christ is the Spirit? To turn to Christ is to turn to God surely too so there is no conflict here.
When Jesus rose he remained of his own nature and individuality too and he was not absorbed spiritually or as soul into the Father. He remains soul ,his spirit and the Holy Spirit like we do and and has a new body too as we will.
Yes we are our soul and our body is as a tent.
As I said Acts 2.33 does not say that Jesus personally received into himself the Spirit at his resurrection as that happened on earth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,20:52) Hi BE,
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and God is Spirit. But you says Christ is the Spirit? To turn to Christ is to turn to God surely too so there is no conflict here.
When Jesus rose he remained of his own nature and individuality too and he was not absorbed spiritually or as soul into the Father. He remains soul ,his spirit and the Holy Spirit like we do and and has a new body too as we will.
Yes we are our soul and our body is as a tent.
As I said Acts 2.33 does not say that Jesus personally received into himself the Spirit at his resurrection as that happened on earth.
There is a big problem here with what you are saying Nick. You have no Scriptural support for it.No I am referring to these statements:
“He remains soul ,his spirit and the Holy Spirit like we do and and has a new body too as we will.”
There is no support for this claim whatsoever Nick.
“Yes we are our soul and our body is as a tent.”
If you mean a soul in a body is something like a marble inside a jar, I completely disagree. A soul is like the light in a light bulb. There is a big difference between these two ideas so let me explain. You do not put a soul into a body like a marble into a jar. A soul is the phenomena of what occurs when you put a spirit into a body. You end up with a living body.
A bulb (human body) is made alive by the energizing power (spirit) which makes it a light (soul).
You do not put light into a light bulb. It is a phenomena which occurs when you put something else (energy) into a light bulb.
A human being is a soul which is a relationship of spirit and body. These two things are with each other like a man and a woman in a unmarried romantic relationship. They are together but they are not one but two different things. Their love is the soul of their relationship that comes alive when they are together.
The human element of a living soul is the body of dust. The divine element is the life-breath spirit of God. When these two things have a relationship you have a living human being, a soul, a PERSON. A rock has not relationship with a spirit so it therefore is not a soul, not a PERSON. “SouL” is essentially another word for “person.” In a rock there is no light of life; it is not a soul because it has no spirit.
However, a resurrected person is a new kind of humanity which is why Paul calls Jesus “the new and last Adam.” The Hebrew word for humanity is “adam.” The old kind of humanity was mortal and kept alive by a spirit that was temporarily in a man. The old humanity was not spirit but kept alive by spirit. The new kind of humanity is a body which is itself animated by the Spirit of God which is becomes. Here the two, Spirit and flesh, become one new creation adn these two things are not WITH each other but come together so that they are one new thing and not two. It is the marriage of Spirit and flesh in the same sense a marriage of man and woman result in oneness and that oneness is manifest in a firstborn son. In this way, we becomes sons of God in substance in our resurrections.
OK,
Let me explain.
We know Yeshua was like us in ALL ways but sin.
We know from Gen 2.7 that
“man was made from the dust of the ground and God blew into his nostrils the breath of life ;and man became a living being”.
1Thes 5 23 says we are “spirit, soul and body”So the breath of life created soul and spirit in us.
We know from Eccles12.7 that at death ” the dust will return to the earth as it was[BODY]the spirit returns to God”
That leaves the real us, the soul.The useless tent covering is destroyed and rots away.
1Thess 4.14 tells us we sleep in death. That is surely soul sleep in the earth awaiting being clothed with the new resurrection body, an imperishable body like that of the man from heaven.[1Cor 15.42f].This is the body that will last through the 1000 yr reign on earth of Christ and into eternity.
“1Thes 5 23 says we are “spirit, soul and body”
No it doesn't Nick. You are reading an idea into the text which is not there. Paul does not indicate we are a threefold constitution. You say yourself below that the spirit that God puts in us to make us alive goes back to him who gave it. He is the father of the spirits of all flesh. In other words, the spirit in us is not our own human constitution but the gift of life from God and the thing that makes us a soul, the thing that makes us a person. When I speak of “my spirit” it does not mean my spirit is an element of my humanity but I am speaking of that particular spirit that God gives me to keep me alive in distinction to the one that you have. I am not a spirit and my spirit forms no part of my humanity; I am a human body kept alive by a spirit from God.
“That leaves the real us, the soul.The useless tent covering is destroyed and rots away.”
Actually it means that the human person/soul is dead. The energy is taken away (spirit) and the lights went out (soul). And that is why the OT refers to dead bodies as “souls.” They are persons who once lived.
When you take away the energy (spirit) from the light bulb (body) where does the light (soul) go Nick? The light does not go anywhere or remain anywhere does it? It just goes out. The same thing happens to a human soul as when you turn out the lights.
Hi BE,
Yeshua spoke of Abraham and Moses. He said they were alive not dead. He is the God of the living not the dead. He said Abraham rejoiced to see this day. He did not say he would have but he did. In Lk 16 we see Abraham alive and awaiting in paradise for his resurrection to glory.
He is not dead but asleep was said of Lazarus and Tabitha. Death is not absence of life even though the spirit has returned to God, but sleep.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,22:05) Hi BE,
Yeshua spoke of Abraham and Moses. He said they were alive not dead. He is the God of the living not the dead. He said Abraham rejoiced to see this day. He did not say he would have but he did. In Lk 16 we see Abraham alive and awaiting in paradise for his resurrection to glory.
He said no such thing Nick. I have noticed that this verse is commonly distorted in that way to say something it never does. The passage is about the resurrection and means that God is the God of the living because he will raise them from the dead unto new life in the coming age.In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife will the woman be? For the seven had her as wife.” And Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage; but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him.” (Luke 20).
Jesus' point is that God is the God of the living because they will be raised from the dead by God who will give them immortal life. Notice what he says, “But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed….”
And as for your allusion to Luke 16, we find there that in order to warn the Rich Man's brothers, the point is that someone would have to be raised from the dead in order to do this. Notice that eyes, fingers and tongues are existent in this story. This is not a story about disembodied souls or spirits but a parable about the good vs evil condition of human beings as bodies when they die based on how they lived during life.
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