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amen Malcolm,
And when Christ returned to heaven and shared His Spirit with the members of his body on earth it too placed a bridge in that body between heaven and earth.malcolm wrote:Hi Nick
Quote But God is not personalised only in His creation Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool is this what you mean?
God must work through some channel, some form in order to even be visible and therefore known both to and by creation.
Hi Malcolm,
God's throne is heaven certainly.
He has, as Spirit, manifested in tabernacles on earth.Is God invisible to begotten and created heavenly beings??
Or does that invisibility only apply to the weak eyes of earthly creation?Hi,
Malcolm believes the Spirit of God left Jesus at death. Can anyone else give light here as it is a vital matter.Depends what you mean by the spirit of God.
In view of the impersonal nature of the life-force, or spirit, found in man (as also in the animal creation), it is evident that David’s statement at Psalm 31:5, quoted by Jesus at the time of his death (Lu 23:46), “Into your hand I entrust my spirit,” meant that God was being called upon to guard, or care for, that one’s life-force. (Compare Ac 7:59.) That there be an actual and literal transmission of some force from this planet to the heavenly presence of God is not necessarily required. Even as the fragrant scent of animal sacrifices was spoken of as being ‘smelled’ by God (Ge 8:20, 21), whereas such scent undoubtedly remained within earth’s atmosphere, so, too, God could ‘gather in,’ or could accept as entrusted to him, the spirit or life-force in a figurative sense, that is, without any literal transmission of vital force from earth. (Job 34:14; Lu 23:46) A person’s entrusting his spirit evidently means, then, that he places his hope in God for a future restoration of such life-force to himself through a resurrection.—Compare Nu 16:22; 27:16; Job 12:10; Ps 104:29, 30.
Hi,
Heb 6.4f
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened
and have tasted of the heavenly gift
and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good Word of God
and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away,
it is impossible to renew them to repentance,
since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God
and put him to open shame”Most have yet to know the power and the presence of the Spirit enlivening their minds and hearts to the glory of the Word of God.
Ask and you will receive.
Hi,
Trinitarians claim Jesus is a deity in his own right.
That conflicts with their claim that he is a person in God.
A deity is a god that is worshipped.
And, to show equality and consistency, where is the evidence that the third “person” in God is a deity too?
Where are we told to worship the Spirit and where in scripture is the Spirit worshipped?Nowhere.
And such teaching distorts the wonderful blessing that the Spirit is to those in Christ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2006,05:30) Hi,
Malcolm believes the Spirit of God left Jesus at death. Can anyone else give light here as it is a vital matter.
Wrong Nick go and read what I wrote, the spirit of God left Jesus as the garden of Gethsemane – otherwise he could not die, God does not die, and Jesus could not be said to be dead if the spirit of God remained in him. He gave up his spirit to God on the cross, not God giving His own spirit up to Himself.Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 20 2006,02:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2006,05:30) Hi,
Malcolm believes the Spirit of God left Jesus at death. Can anyone else give light here as it is a vital matter.
Wrong Nick go and read what I wrote, the spirit of God left Jesus as the garden of Gethsemane – otherwise he could not die, God does not die, and Jesus could not be said to be dead if the spirit of God remained in him. He gave up his spirit to God on the cross, not God giving His own spirit up to Himself.
Hi Malcolm,
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Can you show us that what you say is true, from scripture?If you mean can I show you an explicit statement that says the spirit of God left Him then, no.
I am using inference as follows:His ministry to declare his Father began at Jordan when upon John's baptism the Holy Spirit descended upon him and remained upon him. From that time he went forth declaring his Father in his Father's name.
Yet we also have a purpose stated for which he declares he was sent into the world – namely to be the Lamb for sinners slain.
So the fulfilment of this purpose strongly suggests the previous fulfilment of the other. It was the Lamb that was slain upon the cross of Calvary as far as I am aware it is not the Dove.
Also I do not read it saying that spirit departed as a dove from him on the cross.
When we read the account of his great struggle in the garden of Gethsemane we find he is anxious concerning the coming trial of his death. Saying 'Father if it is at all possible let this cup be taken from me, yet nevertheless not my will but thy will be done'. One has to ask, why would this be such a trial if the Father was with Him?
History is replete with accounts of the early Christians who were filled with the anointing of God going to their deaths with great victory and without fear or torment of any kind. So why was it different for His son? Of these it would be fair to say that they had already passed from death into life, so all that man was able to achieve was the destruction of their flesh, and God 's anointing was so great upon them that this held no dread or terror or agony for them.
Just take the account in acts of Stephen who was stoned to death (not the nicest way to go) yet it reads like a little child who lays down his head in his Father's bosom and takes a nap, no agony, no fear or torment at all.I read of great torment, agony and fear in the account of our blessed saviour's death though.
Now do not mistaken what I have just outlined to you to mean I believe that God forsook His Son. It was simply necessary that He allow this to happen momentarily so that Jesus might partake of death – that which was to befall all of us – on our behalf.
But we read in the Psalms that God did not leave His soul in Hell, nor suffer His Holy One to see corruption. Nor did He lightly esteem the great sacrifice His Son had made for us, and for the fulfilment of His own Word and Will. He highly exalted Him as a result, as we are aware.
So, no Nick, I cannot show any explicit and therefore inescapable proof. But then if everything was that easy, provable to the N'th degree, why would we need faith (revelation)?
Some things we can see quite clearly from the scriptures:
God is not a man
Jesus was a man
Jesus was not God
God was in Christ
The fulness of God indwelt him
God cannot die
Jesus did dieHow we then reconcile each of these truths to the life, death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ is a matter of revelation – how the scriptures are seen to us, according to our faith.
There is only one Faith that is genuine – the faith once delivered to the saints – this we must earnestly contend for.
JMTCW –
Hi Malcolm,
Thanks for your honest reply.
My view is that the Spirit once given remains with the person, be it Jesus or us. It is the gift of God and God's gifts are given “without repentance'
God does not take away what He gives.
He does not have second thoughts.My view of Gethsemene and beyond is the conflict between the two wills-his own will and the Will of God as the Spirit in Him.
He was the scapegoat and was laden down with the sins of the World. Sin separates us from God such that God seems to withdraw His Hand, but He does not leave us or forsake us. After his sin David pleaded that God not take His spirit from him. He must have felt alone to pray that way but God had not left him, just hidden Himself for a time.
Hi Malcolm,
The fullness of deity [theotes]indwelled Christ as Spirit,
while God was in heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him.It was the finger of God,
the hand of God,
the right arm of God,
in constant and direct communication with the rest of the being of God, living in heaven.Hi,
Some have said here that the Spirit of God was taken away from Christ prior to his death. I am surprised that none have challenged this thought.
Are the gifts of God not given without repentance [Rom 11.29]?
The Servant upon which was given the anointing of the Spirit of God, only to be taken away again?
Does God withdraw His spirit from even His own Son?Where is it written?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2006,08:30) Hi Malcolm,
The fullness of deity [theotes]indwelled Christ as Spirit,
while God was in heaven where Jesus told us to pray to Him.It was the finger of God,
the hand of God,
the right arm of God,
in constant and direct communication with the rest of the being of God, living in heaven.
John 14:12
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.Who was abiding (dwelling) in Jesus? the Spirit? – no the Father!
Who is the Father? God.2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.So God the Father was in Christ, this is what Theotes is – the fulness of Theotes – God the Father.
I don't read that God's finger was in Christ, that God's hand was in Christ. I don't read that the right arm of God was in Christ.Jesus was the finger of God, the hand of God, the right arm of God. The visible image of the invisible God. The body in which God dwelt and moved to do the work of redemption.
Hi Malcolm,
Jesus did not claim to BE the finger of God.
The scripture in Lk 11.20 says
” But if I cast out demons BY the finger of God”
The parallel verse in Matt 12.28 says
” But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God..”Does that not make it plain that “the finger of God” is “the Spirit of God?”
God is Spirit Malcolm.
He anointed the Son with His Spirit and power
Thus He was with the Son.[both Acts 10.38]He filled the Son with the fullness of Himself-as Spirit.
AND
He was still on His throne in heaven where we were told to pray to Him.“God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2006,09:31) Hi Malcolm,
Jesus did not claim to BE the finger of God.
The scripture in Lk 11.20 says
” But if I cast out demons BY the finger of God”
The parallel verse in Matt 12.28 says
” But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God..”Does that not make it plain that “the finger of God” is “the Spirit of God?”
God is Spirit Malcolm.
He anointed the Son with His Spirit and power
Thus He was with the Son.[both Acts 10.38]He filled the Son with the fullness of Himself-as Spirit.
AND
He was still on His throne in heaven where we were told to pray to Him.“God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and power”
Yes Nick I know it says that.
Bear in mind that Jesus also attested to the fact that He was not doing the works but the Father in him was doing the works BY him.
That his words were not his own but those of the Father, using him as a mouthpiece (as He did in times past in prophets [Heb1:1])God has a body, Jesus is that body. Before He used this body on the earth he spoke to the fathers in prophets – they were God's mouth, His voice sounded through them.
Hi Malcolm,
The problem with that idea is that it would be God saying He does it by the “finger of God”, His own Spirit! God is spiirt. God always does things by His Spirit. Only the vessel for God has to say such things surely?So the Father was not in him is that what you are saying?
I read He was in him. As far as I am aware God – who is a Spirit – is the Father. And this person was in Christ.Hi Malcolm,
Not so I believe.
God was in him, as Spirit, and in heaven.
That is why Peter showed us in Acts that to lie to the Spirit is to lie to God
That is why to blaspheme the Spirit is more serious than blasphemy against the Son as the Father is greater than the Son.God is big. VERY BIG
We must not limit God to our human boundaries.
We are like to Him,
but He is not like to us.Is not God amazing?
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