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According to the Hebrew understanding for thousands of years, throughtout the O.T., the “spirit” was a “thing,” not a person. Why would this suddenly change in the N.T.? The “personification” of the “spirit” is a product of the church, not the Bible….No Hebrew or Jew ever considered (nor do they consider it today) the spirit to be a “person.”
Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,11:11) According to the Hebrew understanding for thousands of years, throughtout the O.T., the “spirit” was a “thing,” not a person. Why would this suddenly change in the N.T.? The “personification” of the “spirit” is a product of the church, not the Bible….No Hebrew or Jew ever considered (nor do they consider it today) the spirit to be a “person.”
My point exactly. You noticed that this topic has remained neglected. Seems to me that when a logical arguement is given, their is not much debate.
I'll probably get blasted for this, but I'll say it anyway….what I see in quite a number of posts in this forum overall are “personal interpretations” that attempt to make the Bible say whatever the person wants it to say or mean, and they ignore the context, or they ignore the fact that a number of verses are just plain spurious…..they are not following the “Bible;” they are following whatever some church has told them, or their personal interpretations. The Bible was originally written in the common language, intended to be easily understood by the common man, and they certainly didn't need 200 Bible scholars to tell them what it said. Not to mention the Bible itself tells us it is not subject to “private interpretation.” Whenever “interpretation” was needed, it was SUPPLIED by an angel, or God Himself…..man was not to interpret anything on his own!
How do you think we have now come to the point where there are over 1,000 “denominations, divisions, branches, sects, etc.,” in Christianity? Real simple…everyone and their uncle is “interpreting” differently according to their own opinions…..If everyone were simply following the Bible, there would only be ONE “denomination,” not 1,000+!!!
Could it be that there are two things those who participate in these forums should do?
1. Do some SERIOUS textual research. You might just be surprised at what you learn.
2. Try just letting the Bible say what it says and let it go at that, instead of trying to put an “interpretative spin” on it.And above all else, remember that it is the AUTHENTIC BIBLE TEXT that is the “authority” (the Word of God that was left to us), NOT THE MAN-MADE INSTITUTIONS that are calling themselves “churches” in today's world. There are THOUSANDS of “institutional churches,” and they all teach something a bit differently….and that alone should tell you they aren't following the Bible, but rather they are following their own “leaders,” and their own “interpretations.”
Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,21:05) Could it be that there are two things those who participate in these forums should do?
1. Do some SERIOUS textual research. You might just be surprised at what you learn.
2. Try just letting the Bible say what it says and let it go at that, instead of trying to put an “interpretative spin” on it.
I agree with your post but just wanted to add that sometimes a verse may seem clear on a point but could be taken a couple of different ways. Only when we have harmony through all of scripture have we reached the proper interpretation.I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person per say, but how can we say what the Spirit of an infinite God is, as we do not even know what our own spirit is.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,03:31) I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person per say, but how can we say what the Spirit of an infinite God is, as we do not even know what our own spirit is.
Good point. But isn't God Spirit?JOHN 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”If God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, wouldn't that, by default, make the Holy Spirit….well…..God? Why then are they both mentioned in many NT passages (Matt 3:16-17, Luke 1:35, Luke 1:67-69, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 2 Corinthians 1:21,22…….) ? And why is it that the Spirit intercedes between us and the Father (Romans 8:26-28)?
What do you make of this seeking truth?
Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,19:18) Quote (truebelief4u @ Mar. 25 2006,21:05) Could it be that there are two things those who participate in these forums should do?
1. Do some SERIOUS textual research. You might just be surprised at what you learn.
2. Try just letting the Bible say what it says and let it go at that, instead of trying to put an “interpretative spin” on it.
I agree with your post but just wanted to add that sometimes a verse may seem clear on a point but could be taken a couple of different ways. Only when we have harmony through all of scripture have we reached the proper interpretation.
Amen to that seekingtruth.Almost all false teaching that supposedly uses scripture, takes scripture out of context. So many times I have seen men preach creeds and yet they cannot give an explanation when scripture says the opposite of what they teach. They look at the little picture with little regard how if fits in with the big picture. They argue over a stick and cannot see the tree. In other words they are short sighted, even blind.
The truth has this attribute, scripture confirms it. Not just some scripture but all scripture is in harmony because it is true.
Even if every man be a liar, God is true and he inspired scripture.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2006,08:18) Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,03:31) I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person per say, but how can we say what the Spirit of an infinite God is, as we do not even know what our own spirit is.
Good point. But isn't God Spirit?JOHN 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”If God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, wouldn't that, by default, make the Holy Spirit….well…..God? Why then are they both mentioned in many NT passages (Matt 3:16-17, Luke 1:35, Luke 1:67-69, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 2 Corinthians 1:21,22…….) ? And why is it that the Spirit intercedes between us and the Father (Romans 8:26-28)?
What do you make of this seeking truth?
Actually that was my point we do not understand what kind of being God is beyond a few attributes such as invisible. We know He is Spirit and when we've seen Jesus we've seen Him (I'm not suggesting Jesus only). What I was trying to say is my spirit is part of me and I do not know what it is, How can I even begin to understand God's. It's my opinion that the spiritual realm is beyond our comprehension operating under different rules, or as Jesus said, we can't understand earthly things how could we understand heavenly things (or something like that if memory serves).Is your spirit a person?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2006,03:18) Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,03:31) I do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person per say, but how can we say what the Spirit of an infinite God is, as we do not even know what our own spirit is.
Good point. But isn't God Spirit?JOHN 4:24
“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”If God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, wouldn't that, by default, make the Holy Spirit….well…..God? Why then are they both mentioned in many NT passages (Matt 3:16-17, Luke 1:35, Luke 1:67-69, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 2 Corinthians 1:21,22…….) ? And why is it that the Spirit intercedes between us and the Father (Romans 8:26-28)?
What do you make of this seeking truth?
Quote If God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is Spirit, wouldn't that, by default, make the Holy Spirit….well…..God? And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,( Eph. 1-2)
Using your logic means that all spirits are God. Here in Ephesians a spirit is mentioned, since God is spirit then the spirit in Ephesians must be God.
This is the kind of logic that is used to support what you believe, but as you can see it can be very illogical.
I was really only interested in Seekingtruth's thoughts on this matter, but thanks for your input Sultan. I do note though that you didn't actually offer any solid answers to my questions, only objections.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2006,19:45) I was really only interested in Seekingtruth's thoughts on this matter, but thanks for your input Sultan. I do note though that you didn't actually offer any solid answers to my questions, only objections.
I gave you my thoughts right above Sultans post and asked a question of my own. If your looking for more just let me know.Quote (seekingtruth @ Mar. 26 2006,11:36) Actually that was my point we do not understand what kind of being God is beyond a few attributes such as invisible. We know He is Spirit and when we've seen Jesus we've seen Him (I'm not suggesting Jesus only). What I was trying to say is my spirit is part of me and I do not know what it is, How can I even begin to understand God's. It's my opinion that the spiritual realm is beyond our comprehension operating under different rules, or as Jesus said, we can't understand earthly things how could we understand heavenly things (or something like that if memory serves).
No I didn't see this post. I agree with most of this. I guess the point I was trying to make was – and i'll try to be as clear as possible – UNLIKE us God is Spirit (although we will be). IF the Holy Spirit is simply God's personal Spirit (that was your contention, wasn't it?) why make a distinction in the verses I cited (there are many dozens more) between this Spirit being God and His Spirit? Do you get what I mean? It doesn't add up to me.Quote Is your spirit a person?
Well I think you partially answered this yourself when you wrote “my spirit is part of me”. I don't have a dogmatic view on whether we are dichotomous or trichotomous beings. Although Hebrews 4:12 and 1 Thess 5:23 makes me lean towards the later. All our 'personal' attributes (e.g. mind, volition, heart….) come from the immaterial/metaphysical parts of us, although which attributes come from which parts is not possible to determine, as far as I can tell. But these aspects appear, to me, to be connected and interrelated. So I suppose it's reasonable to assume that either our spirit, soul or spirit+soul ARE our person. Our body is just a tent, afterall. So, with this in mind, I guess the answer to your question is a tentative “yes”, my spirit is a person, me.Is the Holy Spirit a person?
Well evidently according to the Gospel of John – yes.Who is the Holy Spirit?
according to Jesus – speaking to the woman at the well – God!
also according to Matt 1:18 – for the Holy Spirit is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ.Is God more than one spirit?
No – the first commandment and Jesus own words confirm He is a (singular) Spirit.Who is the Spirit of God's Son?
Gal 4:6 – which tells us God has sent this spirit into our hearts.I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 28 2006,00:28) Is the Holy Spirit a person?
Well evidently according to the Gospel of John – yes.Who is the Holy Spirit?
according to Jesus – speaking to the woman at the well – God!
also according to Matt 1:18 – for the Holy Spirit is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ.Is God more than one spirit?
No – the first commandment and Jesus own words confirm He is a (singular) Spirit.Who is the Spirit of God's Son?
Gal 4:6 – which tells us God has sent this spirit into our hearts.I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
amen Mr. FerrisQuote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 28 2006,00:28) Is the Holy Spirit a person?
Well evidently according to the Gospel of John – yes.Who is the Holy Spirit?
according to Jesus – speaking to the woman at the well – God!
also according to Matt 1:18 – for the Holy Spirit is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ.Is God more than one spirit?
No – the first commandment and Jesus own words confirm He is a (singular) Spirit.Who is the Spirit of God's Son?
Gal 4:6 – which tells us God has sent this spirit into our hearts.I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
I agree, Malcolm F; and Is 1:18, I agree too w/ the last sentence of your last post here although NOT if it means that the person is another person other than the Father.Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 28 2006,00:28) Is the Holy Spirit a person?
Well evidently according to the Gospel of John – yes.Who is the Holy Spirit?
according to Jesus – speaking to the woman at the well – God!
also according to Matt 1:18 – for the Holy Spirit is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ.Is God more than one spirit?
No – the first commandment and Jesus own words confirm He is a (singular) Spirit.Who is the Spirit of God's Son?
Gal 4:6 – which tells us God has sent this spirit into our hearts.I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
malcolm ferris,If I'm reading right you are saying that the Holy Spirit is :
I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son,
1) Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit and also the Spirit of His Son.
Would this not mean that the Father and Son have the Same Spirit?
Father + Son + their Spirit Is this what you said?Amen Kenrch.
God is in heaven and His Spirit lives and does his work on earth, even through human vessels..
…So much for trinity theoriesQuote (kenrch @ Mar. 28 2006,02:58) Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 28 2006,00:28) Is the Holy Spirit a person?
Well evidently according to the Gospel of John – yes.Who is the Holy Spirit?
according to Jesus – speaking to the woman at the well – God!
also according to Matt 1:18 – for the Holy Spirit is said to be the Father of Jesus Christ.Is God more than one spirit?
No – the first commandment and Jesus own words confirm He is a (singular) Spirit.Who is the Spirit of God's Son?
Gal 4:6 – which tells us God has sent this spirit into our hearts.I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
malcolm ferris,If I'm reading right you are saying that the Holy Spirit is :
I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son, upon rebirth. We are not recieving 3 spritis, it is one spirit. We are not recieving 3 persons but one. We are not literally recieving God – we are recieving of His Spirit, His Life, to become His Sons.
I contend that when we recieve the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit , the Spirit of His Son,
1) Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit and also the Spirit of His Son.
Would this not mean that the Father and Son have the Same Spirit?
Father + Son + their Spirit Is this what you said?
We are given the authority to become (be called) the sons of God upon a spritual rebirth according to John 1:12.This is not the power (dunamos) to become something we are not already potentially. We are not goats that become sheep.
This is the power (exusia) or authority to become/ or move into a position that we already had before the foundation of the world.
It is because we ARE sons that he sends forth His Spirit into our hearts. This is the point at which through a rebirth we now have eternal life.
So we are called sons OF God, even as Jesus was the first born of this group. Called the Son of God, unique in position, status and the way he came into the world.
So the Holy Spirit is God, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is God's power of eternal life.
You asked would that not mean that the Sprit of God and the Spirit of Jesus is the same spirit?
Jesus said I and My Father are one.
One what?
Heb 2 tells us Jesus is not afraid to call us brothers because we are all one.
One what?
Paul tells us that by one Spirit we are all baptised into one body.
So the one body, of which Jesus Christ is our head has one life that flows through it – the life of God, how? by His Spirit.
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