The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 04 2006,20:43)

the spirit himself speaks Acts 11:28 And rising up, one of them named Agabus, foretold by the Spirit… Acts 13:2 Now as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them.”

I do not doubt that the spirit speaks. God can make anyone speak, when you consider it. What I am saying is that it is the Father who speaks and instructs by his spirit.

[Sultan]

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 02 2006,22:46)

Many people claim that the Holy Spirit is a person because attributes are given to it that can only be used to denote personality. I would like to challenge that notion and prove from scripture that this kind of thinking is not infallible, and that perhaps too much is being read into the text based on preconceived notions. Notice thes examples from scripture: And some of the Pharisees called to Him from the crowd, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.” But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out.” (Luke 19:39-40) Here Jesus says that “stones would cry out”. Are these stones persons? For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (Isa. 55:12) The mountains and hills will sing and the trees will clap their hands. Trees clap and have hands. Are these trees and mountains persons? Wisdom has built her house,She has hewn out her seven pillars; (Prov. (9:1) Wisdom builds a house. Is wisdom an actual person. Wisdom is actualized in Christ, but this text was written before Jesus came in the flesh, and the context of the passage is speaking of wisdom itself. My question is though is wisdom an actual person? My point is if the Holy Spirit is a person because certain attributes are spoken of being possed by it. Then rocks, trees, mountains, etc must be persons too. If they are not then what rule of interpretation and exegesis is used to determine what's a person and what's not?

Here is my original post. Please address it in it's entirety. What is happening here is I am simply getting quotes, but no answers. Just because personall attributes are attributed to the Spirit, what right authority, exegetical, or interpretive process is used to define it as a person, and not the rocks, mountains etc. I don't believe there is any exclusive Biblical proof that the Holy Spirit is a person, and if we say because personal attributes are attributed to the Spirit, then why can we not apply this logic throughout all of scripture.

Many times trinitarians simply run to their pre-printed responses to questions. I'm not looking for dry,wooden theological jargon. I'm looking for strong Biblical fact.

I can explain,define, and defend the Trinity with the best of them because I used to believe it. So please let's not fill this thread with trivial “He spoke so He's a person”. Jesus said the rocks would cry out. Why are these not persons?

[Sultan]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 04 2006,16:11)

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 04 2006,20:43) the spirit himself speaks Acts 11:28 And rising up, one of them named Agabus, foretold by the Spirit… Acts 13:2 Now as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them.” I do not doubt that the spirit speaks. God can make anyone speak, when you consider it. What I am saying is that it is the Father who speaks and instructs by his spirit.

Excellent point Cubes.

[david]

1. Many things in the scriptures are personified, given human qualities.
So the personification of the holy spirit in itself does not prove that it is or is not a person. Some quick examples: Wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5:14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’
So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person.

2. The holy spirit is also spoken of in a way that does not allow it to be a person. It is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person.

Keeping in mind BOTH of these facts, it seems that the holy spirit is in fact merely being personified in those scriptures and that it is not a person.

The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.

[david]

Quote

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-holy-spirit.htm The holy spirit is a person

Liljon,

The Bible
The holy spirit is not a person.

[david]

Quote

the spirit himself speaks Acts 11:28 And rising up, one of them named Agabus, foretold by the Spirit… Acts 13:2 Now as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them.”

Liljon,
LUKE 19:40
“But in reply he said: “I tell YOU, If these remained silent, the stones would cry out.””
(This is a really bad example, as it might not even prove my point, depending on how you look at this scripture, but it's the first that popped into my head.)

We have to look at ALL the scriptures where the holy spirit is spoken of. And yes, it is spoken of quite often in an animated way. But it is ALSO spoken of quite a bit in a way that doesn't allow for it to be a person.

As a side note, if the holy spirit were are a real person, it must feel neglected, as you can talk about the trinity for hours before the holy spirit is even mentioned. Somehow, it seems unequal, at least in the attention it draws.

david.

[Cubes]

Moreover, the Holy Spirit, as the promise is a GIFT given to selected individuals or groups of people.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

The Bible states that The Holy Spirit is a he. Giving it a title of a person, not an inanimate object to be called it. Even the carefully worded NW says states so. Even though it says it, it it, and this one, this one, this one. It slipped and called The Spirit a he in John 16:14. Calls The Holy spirit this one(it in many other verses), then he. Sounds like the writer became confused. again in John 16:13, 15 the Holy Spirit is referred to as he.

Here is a good website to read about the Holy Spirit. It was put down on another persons quick post and I read it and agree that The Holy Spirit is a he not an it. Hence why i believe in the trinity. These extra forums are just ones way to talk about the Trinity in parts. http://www.bible.ca/trinity….m#proof

[Sultan]

Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 08 2006,20:32)

The Bible states that The Holy Spirit is a he. Giving it a title of a person, not an inanimate object to be called it. Even the carefully worded NW says states so. Even though it says it, it it, and this one, this one, this one. It slipped and called The Spirit a he in John 16:14. Calls The Holy spirit this one(it in many other verses), then he. Sounds like the writer became confused. again in John 16:13, 15 the Holy Spirit is referred to as he. Here is a good website to read about the Holy Spirit. It was put down on another persons quick post and I read it and agree that The Holy Spirit is a he not an it. Hence why i believe in the trinity. These extra forums are just ones way to talk about the Trinity in parts. http://www.bible.ca/trinity….m#proof

ootlg,

Why can we not apply this logic throughout scripture. As I have stated in my post personal attributes are given to other thing (such as wisdom being called a “she”).

Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets.(prov. 1:20)

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman (Prov. 7:4)

Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars. (pro. 9:1)

Is wisdom a woman? Please answer this question and explain how you came to your conclusion scripturally. Thanks.

[david]

Quote

The Bible states that The Holy Spirit is a he. Giving it a title of a person, not an inanimate object to be called it. Even the carefully worded NW says states so. Even though it says it, it it, and this one, this one, this one. It slipped and called The Spirit a he in John 16:14. Calls The Holy spirit this one(it in many other verses), then he. Sounds like the writer became confused. again in John 16:13, 15 the Holy Spirit is referred to as he.

Yes, the holy spirit is sometimes referred to as a 'he.'

But a couple of posts ago, I stated this:

Quote

1. Many things in the scriptures are personified, given human qualities. So the personification of the holy spirit in itself does not prove that it is or is not a person. Some quick examples: Wisdom is said to have “children.” (Luke 7:35) Sin and death are spoken of as being kings. (Rom. 5:14, 21) While some texts say that the spirit “spoke,” other passages make clear that this was done through angels or humans. (Acts 4:24, 25; 28:25; Matt. 10:19, 20; compare Acts 20:23 with 21:10, 11.) At 1 John 5:6-8, not only the spirit but also “the water and the blood” are said to ‘bear witness.’ So, none of the expressions found in these texts in themselves prove that the holy spirit is a person. 2. The holy spirit is also spoken of in a way that does not allow it to be a person. It is spoken of as ‘filling’ people; they can be ‘baptized’ with it; and they can be “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) None of these expressions would be appropriate if the holy spirit were a person. Keeping in mind BOTH of these facts, it seems that the holy spirit is in fact merely being personified in those scriptures and that it is not a person. The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father—Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit. The New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God’s spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God.” (1967, Vol. XIII, p. 575) It also reports: “The Apologists [Greek Christian writers of the second century] spoke too haltingly of the Spirit; with a measure of anticipation, one might say too impersonally.”—Vol. XIV, p. 296.

[david]

The Bible states that “wisdom” is a person, having both “works” and “children.”
The Bible states that “sin” is a king, who rules, induces, works, kills and seduces.
The Bible states that “death” is also a king, who rules.
The Bible states that “undeserved kindness” is a king.

So in your words: 'The Bible states that [all these above things] are a he. Giving them a title of a person, not an inanimate object to be called it.
So, that proves it. No, that doesn't prove it.

With John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa·ra´kle·tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneu´ma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneu´ma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa·ra´kle·tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.

david

[Sultan]

Quote (Sultan @ Mar. 09 2006,01:58)

Quote (OneoftheLordsGenerals @ Mar. 08 2006,20:32) The Bible states that The Holy Spirit is a he. Giving it a title of a person, not an inanimate object to be called it. Even the carefully worded NW says states so. Even though it says it, it it, and this one, this one, this one. It slipped and called The Spirit a he in John 16:14. Calls The Holy spirit this one(it in many other verses), then he. Sounds like the writer became confused. again in John 16:13, 15 the Holy Spirit is referred to as he. Here is a good website to read about the Holy Spirit. It was put down on another persons quick post and I read it and agree that The Holy Spirit is a he not an it. Hence why i believe in the trinity. These extra forums are just ones way to talk about the Trinity in parts. http://www.bible.ca/trinity….m#proof ootlg, Why can we not apply this logic throughout scripture. As I have stated in my post personal attributes are given to other thing (such as wisdom being called a “she”). Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets.(prov. 1:20) Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman (Prov. 7:4) Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars. (pro. 9:1) Is wisdom a woman? Please answer this question and explain how you came to your conclusion scripturally. Thanks.

I see my brothers have gotten silent.

[Sultan]

Come on my trinitarian brothers. Please answer my post.

[liljon]

Proverbs is clearly allegorical and we all know wisdom is not a person. The holy spirit is a person in many places in the bible and spoke audibly to real people in a historical setting. To say that wisdom or anything else personified disqualifies the holy spirit from being person is not logic.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

First i would like to apologize to anyone who has been sending quick post my way. I started a new job on monday and have been exhausted, i don't have a computer of my own so when i can get to the library i try to answer. Here we go…

Yes, true. Wisdom is labeled with a 'she'. I agree but the Spirit has a will.
1. John 14:26 shows us a human quality only God can have. The ability to know all, and teach it. We see that The Holy Spirit has this quality.

2. John 16:13-15- “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose [it] to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose [it] to you.”

(A person can speak, and have a will or initiative. In-animate objects do not have that ability, hence in-animate/ not animate.) ALL VERSES ABOVE TAKEN FROM WEBPAGE BIBLE, REST ARE FROM AMPLIFIED AND ALSO FOUND IN OTHER TRANSLATIONS.
———————————————————————-
3. 2 Corinthians 13:14:
The grace (favor and spiritual blessing) of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the presence and fellowship (the communion and sharing together, and participation) in the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen (so be it).

(Presence and fellowship also person qualities)

4. Romans 8:27:
And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will.

(Pleads in behalf of, Person quality. Also in NW translation is 'plead'-check definition of word and you will realize it is a person quality, something a person does)

5. Matthew 12:31:
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, [a]injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven.

(Can't blaspheme against an in-animate object, used in reference mainly to God.)

CHECK OUT THIS WEBPAGE( section II) AND SEE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON. ALSO CHECK IT WITH YOUR VERSION OF THE SCRIPTURES AND SEE THAT ATLEAST ONE OF THESE IS ALMOST THE SAME OR IS THE SAME AND WILL FIT. http://www.bible.ca/trinity….m#proof

[david]

Quote

Proverbs is clearly allegorical and we all know wisdom is not a person. The holy spirit is a person in many places in the bible and spoke audibly to real people in a historical setting. To say that wisdom or anything else personified disqualifies the holy spirit from being person is not logic.

Exactly right. It doesn't prove it. And it doesn't disprove it. That is my point. It proves nothing.
It could be that he is a person, OR
It could be that the Bible is using personfication, as it has before.

But, when we also look at the other ways that the holy spirit is spoken of, in ways that could not be applied to a person, the answer is obvious.

[david]

Quote

A person can speak, and have a will or initiative. In-animate objects do not have that ability, hence in-animate/ not animate.

A person can speak, and have a will or initiative. In-animate objects do not hae that ability, but are sometimes spoken of in such a way. There are some obvious examples that prove this.

[david]

Quote

5. Matthew 12:31: Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, [a]injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven.

Matt. 12:31, 32, (Revised Standard):
“Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the Trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the Son. Instead, what Jesus said shows that the Father, to whom the “Spirit” belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.

[Sultan]

Quote (liljon @ Mar. 11 2006,13:07)

Proverbs is clearly allegorical and we all know wisdom is not a person. The holy spirit is a person in many places in the bible and spoke audibly to real people in a historical setting. To say that wisdom or anything else personified disqualifies the holy spirit from being person is not logic.

That's an easy out, but I have mentioned other passages not in Proverbs (my original post) that personify things that are not persons.

My point is far from illogical. It is illogical to say that the Holy Spirit is a person because personal attributes are given to it, and then say in another place that this rule does not apply. That is illogical.

Maybe you really don't have an answer other that just quoting the men you believe. Because when the issue is delt with sola scriptora it appears that your conclusion is lacking.

[david]

Quote
Expressions we find in the Bible:

Jehovah God–50 times
the [true] God Jehovah–4 times
Jehovah their God–39 times
Jehovah the [true] God–8 times.
Jehovah is in truth God–1 time
Jehovah is God–1 time
Jehovah is my God–1 time
Jehovah is our God–1 time
Jehovah your God–455 times
Jehovah our God–105 times
Jehovah my God–40 times
Jehovah his God–29 times
Jehovah is a God–7 times
Jehovah the God of–204 times
Jehovah a God–1 time

How many times is the holy spirit referred to as: “God”?

I haven't actually checked yet. Does anyone know? It took quite a while for me to search through the entire Bible and find the 1000 TIMES or so where Jehovah is called God. So if there's someone who has already checked and could save me the time, that would be great.

How many times is the holy spirit referred to as God?

Anyone?

David.

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