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Quote Is this a counterfeit. How is it that many of these HARLOT churches, Oneness Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, some Protestant and now even Catholic churches are all having this “EXPERIENCE”. Would God pour his Spirit out on people who are teaching downright Heresy.
Hey Wautlaw,
If God only has dealings with the doctrinally-perfect, then God has dealings with no man.Be well
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 22 2005,07:55) Ok I would like some insight on the tongues of manifestation. Oneness pentecostals believe that tongues is the intial evidence of the recieving of the Holy Spirit. It is hard to prove them wrong from scripture. But in every passage of Acts that indicated a person or persons spoke in a tongue after recieving the Holy Spirit there was always a few common factors. One, there was understanding of what the person or persons where saying. Two, there were witnesses. Oneness Pentecostals also say that the tongues of manifestation and the gifts of tongues are DIFFERENT. I have been in many church services where “tongues of manifestation” take place. Never heard of any one understanding jack. Just a bunch of garble. So this makes me question whether this is the real Holy Spirit. Is this a counterfeit. How is it that many of these HARLOT churches, Oneness Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, some Protestant and now even Catholic churches are all having this “EXPERIENCE”. Would God pour his Spirit out on people who are teaching downright Heresy. If so why do these Denominations still exist? The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of truth. One of his roles is to guide us into all truth. I personally doubt what we're seeing is of God. I think we're seeing a counterfeit from satan. Look at our first century brothers and sisters, they were few but they were turning the world upside down. No of us is even close to doing this. Those in the first century clearly had something we don't have
Hi w.
There is a forum on tongues I will bring up.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 23 2005,03:28) Quote Is this a counterfeit. How is it that many of these HARLOT churches, Oneness Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, some Protestant and now even Catholic churches are all having this “EXPERIENCE”. Would God pour his Spirit out on people who are teaching downright Heresy.
Hey Wautlaw,
If God only has dealings with the doctrinally-perfect, then God has dealings with no man.Be well
Hi Is 1:18,So you admit that you are not doctrinally perfect. That means there is room for improvement. That means you need to embrace all scripture, not just some of it.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom YOU have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 23 2005,03:12) My wife and i both repented (repent meaning turning away from our wicked ways and realizing that there is nothing good in us) and have been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, both put our faith in him for the remission of sins, not the act of baptism, and neither one of us have recieved the Holy Spirit. but we both know people who are doing (unrepentant) everything under the sun, potty mouths, sexually immoral, you name it and yet they recieved this “Experience”. The wife gave up and considers it all a sham. Me i tried to give up but something in me won't let me. I'm interested in any feedback.
Hi Woutlaw,Life is a gift and God is love. Both you and me have access to many great things that many do not even believe in. I gave up years ago with the denominational churches and so have many who have faith. Since then my faith has grown in leaps and bounds. These organisations need money to survive and often do a dis-service to God's kingdom.
It isn't about what we see them doing, but what God is doing. For it is prophecied that many shall come from among us and deceive many. They shall come in their own name and draw men unto them. I have seen with my own eyes people demonstrating things in their own imagination and calling it the Spirit. I have seen many come in their own name and who love their own name more than the name of Christ. For not all things that are inspired by a spirit are the Spirit of God. For one thing, the Spirit of God cannot dwell where there is unrepentant sin. So it has to be another spirit.
God is love and love has been made perfect when the brethren are in unity. Do not look for so called signs and wonders but to the love of God. It is in God's love that you will feel his Spirit and see true miracles.
You see we should never go to church. We are the Church. How can you go to church if you are the Church? Just live life in the son of God. It is simple and his burden is light. If your every breath is for God, then serve him you will.
Do not imitate those who do all kinds of things and say it is evidence of the Spirit. The Spirit of God will lead you gently. The Spirit has moved me and lead me in many miraculous ways. God is true and he really does guide us by his Spirit. I encourage you not to give my friend.
Hi,
“Come out of her my people”
This tells us there are some who are to be saved yet are still within the false church, the Whore of Babylon. God does not pour His Spirit into unclean vessels but what is clean and unclean in our eyes may not be the same to God. He poured His Spirit into Cornelius and his friends in Acts 10 though they had not yet been baptised. They still were baptised but in God's eyes they were ready before then.Lk 11.13
” If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit TO ALL WHO ASK HIM”It is odd that the promise does not seem limited to the children of God as written.
We cannot see the kingdom unless we are born again[Jn 3.3] So we need the eyes of the Spirit to even grasp what it is to be saved. Thus I believe all should pray for the Spirit that we know which direction to start walking in. Yes there are false gifts and bogus powers visible in many TV churches, but true power is still available to all to help us find God.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2005,09:53) Hi Is 1:18, So you admit that you are not doctrinally perfect. That means there is room for improvement. That means you need to embrace all scripture, not just some of it.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom YOU have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
He He. That's right t8, I not consider myself doctrinally-inerrant. As no one could possible legitimately claim this. I do think my Christology is sound though, and that is one doctrine that you do want to get right (John 8:24). BTW, I get the feeling that those verses you quoted are, to your mind, problematic for trinitarians. This is not so. An ontological contradistinction is not being drawn between the Father and Son. I'll explain it to you one day.
Hi Is 1.18,
Jn 8.16f
“But even if I do judge, my judgement is true; for I am NOT ALONE in it, but I AND the Father who sent me. Even in your law it has been written that the testimony of TWO men is true. I am he who testifies about myself, AND the Father who sent me testifies about me.
So they were saying to him
'Where is your father?'
Jesus answered
'You know NEITHER me NOR my Fathe;if you knew me , tou would know my Father ALSO.'
Thes e words he spoke in the treasury, as he taught in the temple; and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.
Then he said to them
'I go away , and you will sekk mre, and will die in your sin; where I am going you cannot come'
So the Jews were saying
'Surely he will not kill himself, will he?since he says” Where I am going you cannot come”?
And he was saying to them
'You are from below, I am from above;You are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he , you will doie in your sins'
So they were saying to him
'Who are you?'
Jesus said to them
'What have I been saying to you from the beginning? I have many things to speak and judge concerning you, but He WHO SENT ME is true;and the things WHICH I HEARD FROM HIM, these I speak to the world'
They did not realise that he had been speaking to them about the FATHER
So Jesus said
'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my OWN initiative, but I speak these things as the Father TAUGHT me. And He who SENT me is WITH me ; He has not left me ALONE, for I always do the things that are pleasing to HIM”So trinitarians read these verses as Jesus claiming to be God. They also see that do deny that 'truth' is to die in your sins and so they cling to it.
Jn 8.54
” ..My glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say'He is our God'”Jesus throughout the context of the verses show there are two beings in relationship being spoken of. Why would he in the middle of this suddenly claim there is only one after all? That is nonsense.
What he claimed to be was;
from above
not of this world
sent by the Father
returning to heaven
Son of Man
Taught by the Father
Not alone
God is with him
Pleasing God.So he is the Messiah, The Christ.
in no way shape or form am i saying that i am superb in doctrine. What I am saying is that if this “experience” that we are seeing in churches all across denominational boundaries is of God, then darnit there should be some progress towards unity, and oneness. But instead all i see is the same thing. quarreling and bickering. People still fighting over the basic truth's of God's word.
I would also like feedback on others definition of Repent. I've heard some people say that the Spirit can't live in you if there is unrepentent sin. Some define repent as cleaning yourself up. this is hogwash, you can't possibly clean yourself up. Apart from Christ all you have is the sinful nature. and all the sinful nature can do is sin. It knows nothing else. Now i was told that maybe the reason i haven't recieved the Holy Spirit is because i haven't completely repented. Ummm i define repent as becoming conscious of your sin and how it seperates you from God, then turning to God. If we can clean up ourselves, then what would we need a Saviour for?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Nov. 23 2005,13:19) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 22 2005,09:53) Hi Is 1:18, So you admit that you are not doctrinally perfect. That means there is room for improvement. That means you need to embrace all scripture, not just some of it.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom YOU have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
He He. That's right t8, I not consider myself doctrinally-inerrant. As no one could possible legitimately claim this. I do think my Christology is sound though, and that is one doctrine that you do want to get right (John 8:24). BTW, I get the feeling that those verses you quoted are, to your mind, problematic for trinitarians. This is not so. An ontological contradistinction is not being drawn between the Father and Son. I'll explain it to you one day.
Hi IS 1:18,Yes I could explain to you why God the Father isn't God for example, that is if I were silly enough to use the appropriate framework or theology to bend it that way. In other words you can make scripture say anything you want, you just need to choose the correct creed or framework to fit it into. This is how the spirit of Babylon operates.
So then faith in the theology needs to be higher than scripture itself in order to render the meaning different to what is presented clearly in the text.
As someone said once, you cannot get vinegar from a sponge. But you can if you first soak the sponge in vinegar. Same with the Trinity doctrine. You need to hear it first in order to believe it and see the scriptures teaching it. But if you never heard it and were castaway on a desert island with a bible. I doubt the thought would ever enter your mind. In such a case the obvious conclusion one would draw is that God has a son and he pre-existed as the Word and God spirit is the Holy Spirit. The gospel would be evident among other things. But the Trinity doctrine? No way.
But some people cannot remove themselves from doctrines once they are tainted with them. E.g., probably a high percentage of Mormons would have been brought up in that church. Probably the same with JWs too. If you live in Manchester you probably support Manchester United and if you live in New Zealand you support the All Blacks. If you live in China there is a higher chance that you may be a Maoist as apposed to being brought up in New Zealand.
Sure I support the All Blacks when I watch rugby, but with doctrines and truth, I choose them very carefully. I say it doesn't matter how appealing it sounds, but is it true?
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 23 2005,06:45) in no way shape or form am i saying that i am superb in doctrine. What I am saying is that if this “experience” that we are seeing in churches all across denominational boundaries is of God, then darnit there should be some progress towards unity, and oneness. But instead all i see is the same thing. quarreling and bickering. People still fighting over the basic truth's of God's word.
Hi W,
Just because you receive the Spirit does not guarantee you are going to understand and behave in an enlightened manner from then on
Christ must be born into us-a painful process.[Gal 4.19]
We must feed on and abide in the Word.[Jn 6,Jn 15.5f]
We must walk according to the Spirit.[Gal 5.25f]
We must take up our cross daily and follow Jesus.Most find human teachers and follow them. Most feed on watered down fodder. Most become complacent and serve men.
Many quench the Spirit. Many go back to roll in the mud.
Thus divisions are maintained.
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 24 2005,01:55) I would also like feedback on others definition of Repent. I've heard some people say that the Spirit can't live in you if there is unrepentent sin. Some define repent as cleaning yourself up. this is hogwash, you can't possibly clean yourself up. Apart from Christ all you have is the sinful nature. and all the sinful nature can do is sin. It knows nothing else. Now i was told that maybe the reason i haven't recieved the Holy Spirit is because i haven't completely repented. Ummm i define repent as becoming conscious of your sin and how it seperates you from God, then turning to God. If we can clean up ourselves, then what would we need a Saviour for?
Hi Woutlaw,From what I understand, repent means to turn around or turn the other way. It is obvious that we will all sin until this body of death is removed, but to turn away from sin is to not practice it.
Let's take 2 guys. One drinks alcohol to excess and loves to do so. He gets drunk everyday. Another guy has a weakness or tendency toward alcohol. He drinks in moments of weakness or when his faith is weak. He knows it is wrong and is sorry when he does it.
One practices sin and the other repents of it, yet technically speaking both do it. To an outside observer and at the right time, the 2 people may be identical in manner, but God knows their hearts and he knows which one has a heart after him.
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 23 2005,06:55) I would also like feedback on others definition of Repent. I've heard some people say that the Spirit can't live in you if there is unrepentent sin. Some define repent as cleaning yourself up. this is hogwash, you can't possibly clean yourself up. Apart from Christ all you have is the sinful nature. and all the sinful nature can do is sin. It knows nothing else. Now i was told that maybe the reason i haven't recieved the Holy Spirit is because i haven't completely repented. Ummm i define repent as becoming conscious of your sin and how it seperates you from God, then turning to God. If we can clean up ourselves, then what would we need a Saviour for?
Hi W,
All men have sinned according to Rom 3.23. All we have to do is admit we are sinners because none of us know how much we have sinned and what we need to repent of.
The Spirit continues the work of revealing the inner enemies and helps us reclaim the land as Christ grows in us.excellent Nick, i agree 100%. I've just heard alot of people define Repent as cleaning yourself up, or “I'm sorry God”. neither one of these is biblical repentance. Thanks for your response Nick
Quote (Woutlaw @ Nov. 23 2005,06:45) in no way shape or form am i saying that i am superb in doctrine. What I am saying is that if this “experience” that we are seeing in churches all across denominational boundaries is of God, then darnit there should be some progress towards unity, and oneness. But instead all i see is the same thing. quarreling and bickering. People still fighting over the basic truth's of God's word.
Hi Woutlaw
My point was, closely examined, there's a little heresy in all of us. Do you think God first evaluates the soundness of our theology before He gives us a supernatural experience of Himself?God Bless
Absoutely Is 1.18,
And God removes the heresy as we feed on the Word of God and let it abide in us to the exclusion of all other preconceptions of truth.
Mt 7.24
” Therefore anyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock..”Mt 11.25f
“..I praise you, Father,Lord of Heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well pleasing in Your sight”Romans 3:10-18
It is a general understanding that if a writing from the Tanakh is quoted by a teacher, whilst they would in fact only be quoting part, they would be inferring the whole piece.
Please read the cross references for Romans 3:10-18 in full.
The following is an article in regard to this that may be of interest to some readers.
IS 18 i would agree with your response. None of us had a complete understanding of Sound doctrine upon our first encounter with God. It develops over time by feeding on the word of God. But some of us have been at this for 20+ years and are still on milk and not solid food. They should have matured by now. Sound doctrine is very important, 1 Timothy 4:16, Galatians 1:8 just to name a few. Now me, i'm a babe at this. I truly committed my life to Christ about 4 months ago. There is no way in Hades that i'm saying i have an error free doctrine. Prior to studying with the Oneness Pentecostals, i was in a cult called the International Churches of Christ. It was a BAD, ABUSIVE, LEGALISTIC movement. I've seen this movement ruin alot of lives fellas. And it is because of this experience that i'm a HARDLINER on sound doctrine. I don't mean to sound cocky, i don't mean to offend anyone.
Have a Good Holiday everyone
save some turkey for meSpeaking of doctrine, can anyone in here address a few scriptures. Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1-3, Revelation 1:8. These are commonly used by those that say that Jesus is God.
Hi w,
Rev1.1
“The revelation of Jesus Christ,
which God gave him
to show His bondservants,
the things which must soon take place;
and He communicated it by His angel to His bondservant John
who tesified to the word of God
and to the testimony of Jesus Christ,
even to all that he saw”From God,
in accord with the testimony of Jesus Christ and the bible
through God's angel
to John
for all God's bondservants.Jn 1.8
” 'I am the Alpha and Omega'
says the Lord God
' who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty”So no mention of Jesus here. This quotes the Lord God.
Jn 1.1-3
The Son of God was of divine nature and was with God in the beginning. As Phil 2.5-6 says he chose not to strive for equality with God so he never had that equality. He was greater than the angels and men but became like us and less than the angels for a little while before being glorified and seated at God's right hand.
Is 9.6
The Son of God took flesh and was empowered with the grace and power of God's Spirit at his baptism. God lived in him by the Spirit and worked through Him establishing the kingdom of God on earth. He was the glorious vessel for God and will always be so. He was father to his spiritual children and in His total authority and unity with the Father he does the work of God in the name of God for God.v7″The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this” God will make this happen.
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