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Hi david,
Certainly the second verse is fine as we worship God in our own temple spirit.
I would have capitalised the first myself.Hi david,
2Cor 3.17NASB
” Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty”Hi kenrch,
Eph 4.30
” And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by who you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
So we can act independantly of the abiding Spirit of God in us. So we still have a will and life in ourselves and thus we still have a spirit of our own. Our spirit is not replaced by the Spirit of God until we die and our spirit returns to God while the Holy Spirit remains with us for God to raise us .Hi,
The Holy Spirit is spirit of God who is spirit. Men are amazed at the nature and abilities shown by God's spirit among men. So much so that they proposed that the Spirit was actually a separate person from the God from whom that spirit flows. How bizarre.Hi david,
How do you understand this verse if the Holy Spirit is only”the power of God”Eph 3.14
” For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives it's name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts throught faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and the depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge; that YOU MAY BE FILLED UP TO ALL THE FULLNESS OF GOD”
The fullness of deity dwelled in Christ [coll 1.19]and we can share this blessing too. Is it just power or more than that?
?Hi,
1Jn 2.26f
” These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you , the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him”
Jn 16.8f
“and he when he comes , will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgement…He will guide you into all the truth..”
Mt 13.11f
” When they arrest you and hand you over do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit”
Lk 12.11f
“When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are about to say; for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say”This speaks of the inner teaching blessing of the Spirit of God, not just the power of God. this blessing is freely available to all who are in Christ .
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 24 2005,23:47) Hi kenrch,
Eph 4.30
” And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by who you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
So we can act independantly of the abiding Spirit of God in us. So we still have a will and life in ourselves and thus we still have a spirit of our own. Our spirit is not replaced by the Spirit of God until we die and our spirit returns to God while the Holy Spirit remains with us for God to raise us .
IF you have given your life to Christ then you no longer own it. If it is left up to your spirit and not the Holy Spirit then you will certainly die. He has to increase while we decrease.John 3:30 “He must increase, but I must decrease.” No our spirit is not replaced by the Holy Spirit. Your spirit should be in submission to GOD'S Spirit.
Where did that post “BODY OF CHRIST” go Nick, Wait! don't answer I'm not going to waste my time playing games! “Forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth” You start from the Trinty and end up at the Trinty!
God is two divine persons having the same Spirit, period! Try if you will but you haven't and never will, not with scripture anyway, prove this statement wrong!
What about Revelation? The 144 thousand? The rapture theroy? How many resurections? Some people think that heaven is the religious world and the stars that fell are bishops, are they correct? And how do you know? Is Mary our mother? Are their saints in heaven NOW? Who will be changed at the last trump, YOU! NICK?
1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.I'll check in time to time to see if any of you have gotten off the merry-go-round.. and round and round and round ETC.
Hi kenrch,
What are you on about? You seem very confused. Were those questions or just judgements? Hello?Two beings ? Yes. The original Father and His Son
Same spirit? No two beings with their own spirits and wills.“not my will but thine be done”
“Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit”
He gave up his own spirit when he died.As you say we must live in submission and according to The Spirit. Same with Jesus. His vessel was filled with the Spirit of his Father at His baptism. He had the Spirit of God in him as well as his own. If you can understand it with us why is it diificult to say the same about Jesus whom we follow?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2005,00:25) Hi kenrch,
What are you on about? You seem very confused. Were those questions or just judgements? Hello?Two beings ? Yes. The original Father and His Son
Same spirit? No two beings with their own spirits and wills.“not my will but thine be done”
“Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit”
He gave up his own spirit when he died.As you say we must live in submission and according to The Spirit. Same with Jesus. His vessel was filled with the Spirit of his Father at His baptism. He had the Spirit of God in him as well as his own. If you can understand it with us why is it diificult to say the same about Jesus whom we follow?
Nick,Before Jesus became flesh the Father and Son have the same Holy Spirit. How else can they be one.
Yes when Jesus was born of flesh He took on another spirit. And yes when He was baptized He recieved the same Spirit He had before he Became flesh. Just like us, Jesus has His own spirit and the Holy Spirit. That's why we are His breathern.
How many Spirits does the Father have? He didn't become flesh.
Before the Word became flesh He had the same Spirit as the Father.
Father + Son with the same HOLY SPIRIT.Jesus became flesh and had a spirit of His own, like ours.
So now Jesus has His Spirit and the Holy Spirit. Behold the two have become one! Get it. Hello?
Your father and your mother each have their own soul. When they made the mistake (just kidding bro) and had you then you took on BOTH of your mother and father's soul. Now you are one soul created from two.
So it is with the Father and Mary. The two became Jesus and gave Him His own Spirit. Thus the SON OF GOD
So the God Family is God the Father and His Holy Spirit, Mary and Her spirit and their Son Jesus with both their Spirit.
This is what it is all about. God wanted to recreate Himself, have a Family. Once we accept His Holy Spirit we become just like Jesus, one of His children and like our brother we will be resurrected.
Do you agree with that? If not please let me know why? I know I don't have good communication skills. But I THINK I made it clear. Didn't I?Hi,
When you were conceived you did not receive the spirit of your parents. If you had they would have died, as that is what happens when you give up your spirit. You received your own body from their dust and your own spirit inherited in the breath of God. When the Word was begat he had his own spirit from that moment. He did not keep the spirit of his Father. He was a son and was not still a part of his Father. He had individual free choice and chose to submit to his Father's will which pleased his Father greatly. Thus they became one.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2005,04:03) Hi,
When you were conceived you did not receive the spirit of your parents. If you had they would have died, as that is what happens when you give up your spirit. You received your own body from their dust and your own spirit inherited in the breath of God. When the Word was begat he had his own spirit from that moment. He did not keep the spirit of his Father. He was a son and was not still a part of his Father. He had individual free choice and chose to submit to his Father's will which pleased his Father greatly. Thus they became one.
Hi Nick,I certainly agree that when the Word was begat He received His own spirit. Just like you did from your parents. That's what makes Jesus like us. You are SO right that Jesus did not keep the Holy Spirit, so when John baptized Him He received the Holy Spirit. Just like us.
Now look! I don't have good communication skills. OK!
So I'm going to ask if you agree or not. I just want to know if we are on the same page.
In the beginning the Father and the Word had the same Spirit. Do you agree?
When Jesus was begat from the Holy Spirit and Mary. Do you agree?How did Jesus get a new spirit? Are you saying that the Father gave Jesus His NEW spirit. I realize that God gives all humans a spirit. But I believe that God gave Jesus His new spirit through Mary. And I believe that I received my spirit from my parents. Yes I received my spirit from God through my parents. If you created a machine that made something that was able to reproduce itself over and over. You didn't creat the 2nd machine, just the first machine. But you did make both machines. All from the first machine that you made.
So God made Adam and Eve but He didn't make Cain and Able. He made the machine that made Cain and Able. The spirit of all Adam, Eve, Cain and Able belongs to God. But He only made Adam and Eve. This is how we are different from the angles. We have a completely different spirit than they.Our spirit joined with the Holy Spirit from God make us His children, JUST LIKE JESUS. Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. After receiving the Father's Spirit He became God's Son.So what do you think?
Hi kenrch,
The Word who was with God in the beginning already had life in himself having been begotten from God, and his own spirit. That is what distinguishes one being from another-a separate spirit and life in themselves.
Jn 5.26
” For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself”This is the same Jesus who said
“the Father and I are one”
so what he meant is not that they are part of one another but Jesus was filled with the Spirit of God and lived completely in submission such that the Father did His work directly through him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2005,02:43)
Hi N,Jesus was not begotten of the Father until He became flesh.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.The word begotten here means the “only born”. The word became flesh ……the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.
I don't know how you can make a statement like this:
The Word who was with God in the beginning already had life in himself having been begotten from God, and his own spirit.
Please tell me where you find that Jesus was “begotten” in heaven BEFORE God used Mary. Jesus was not begotten until Mary came along.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.The key word is SON. Was Jesus the SON of God in heaven or the WORD? Son of the Father and Son of God. The Father hath life in Himself and has “Given” “TO THE SON, not to the WORD, to have life in Himself. Jesus didn't have a spirit of His own until He became flesh and became the Son of man. Joined with the Holy Spirit of God and “HAVING NO SIN” He certainly had life in Himself Just as we at the resurrection will be like Jesus and have eternal life.
Jesus, the WORD had the Holy Spirit, the same and only Spirit of God which made them one.
If Jesus had His own Spirit, and the Father had a Different seperate Spirit of His own, and then we have the Holy Spirit which I suppose is seperate also. Well heck Nick you just described the Trinty. THREE SEPERATE BEINGS in essence that is you theroy which is pretty old lie.
Father has His Spirit, the Son has His Spirit and since the Father has His own and the Son has His own then the Holy Spirit must be HIS own. That's three seperate beings which is the definition of the Trinty.Jesus has a human spirit. How else can He possibly say that He was tempted just as we are. That's how Satan was defeated. Jesus having a human spirit BUT DID NOT SIN.
Jesus was the SPOKEN WORD of God. The beginning of creation. God SPOKE things into existance. He used the WORD to create. Gods words are life!
Hi kenrch,
No two only.The Holy Spirit IS the Spirit of God.
Jn 3.13f
” No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man…….For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through him”So who descended from heaven? Who was sent into the world?
The Son.
So he was a son before he was sent and descended.
Likewise with the parable of the vinegrower
“Surely they willl respect my son?”
Hi Kenrch,
You wrote:Quote Please tell me where you find that Jesus was “begotten” in heaven BEFORE God used Mary. Jesus was not begotten until Mary came along.
Yes, I agree. I also find no account of an eternal generation of the pre-incarnate Word in either Testament. Jesus is only ever identified as a Son in a post-incarnation context and your statement aligns with the NT writers understanding of the origin of this title:LUKE 1 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.LUKE 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.LUKE 1 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.Jesus will be called the Son of God as a consequence of the incarnation event. Luke makes a very clear and direct linkage between these two variables here, in this verse.
Paul said he was “declared” (From G3725; that is, [figuratively] to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain.) to be the Son of God:
ROMANS 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.He also associated the origin of the 'Sonship' of Christ with the Resurrection in Acts 13:33:
ACTS 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.Therefore, to me it is conclusive that, at least in the mind of Paul, that He was not in any way 'birthed' by the Father. This is not how Paul appears to understand the origin of the title “Son”. In fact none of the NT writers use Ps 2:7 in reference to a pre-incarnation begettal.
HEBREWS 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father (future tense), and he shall be to me a Son?(future tense) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world (future tense), he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Notice, that the Father declares that he pre-incarnate Word will be a Son to Him (The Father) immediately before the firstbegotten is brought into the world (in terms of the passages sequence). Clearly the writer intended to convey the relationship between the titles (Father and Son) and the earthly life of Christ. If this was a reference to the eternal begettal it doesn’t fit contextually.
As far as I know He is never called a Son before his incarnation (except in the case(s) of predictive prophecy). Add to this the biblical data attesting to the eternality of Christ and it appears conclusive that the title Son of God has everything to do with His earthly existence.
Some of my thoughts for what they're worth…..
Be well
IS 1:18PS; I didn't mean to infer that your communications skills are deficient, I actually think you communicate your ideas very well. I think your posts are unusual stylistically (a lot of exclamation marks!!) and I was curious to know if this was because English was your second language. No offense intended, my friend.
Hi Is 1.18,
You say Father and Son are titles. Where else in scripture do you find such titles? Certainly there is reference to a “son of iniquity” but here is described a relationship between two beings not some airy fairy titular names. Ps 2 says that they relate as Father and Son in a very clear way.They have life in themselves and wills of their own and that is what you would expect from two separate individuals.That is also why the unity they show is so much more important. It is a chosen unity not a unity of being.
To Is 1:18,
Trinitarians accept the following verses as Christ and use them to prove his preexistence. If you do as well, you will notice that Wisdom was the first to be brought forth.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.The thing is that we look through a glass dimly and scripture doesn't go into great detail regarding eternity or what it was like before creation. One thing we can be certain of is that the Word was with God, and the Word was divine. All this stuff about eternal generation is pure speculation.
The next verse is interesting as it teaches that the son is from ancient times not an eternally generation. That description is in line with Christ being the first born of all creation.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Remember that Christ is the firstborn in many senses. He is also firstborn from the dead and he as preeminance in all things. Being firstborn of all creation tells us that he is not just the firstborn among men like Adam, rather of all creation.
Scripture teaches us that God is the Father and all those who share his nature are gods. Seems simple to me. Likewise if your Father is human, then you will have human nature, would you not?
In addition, the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as existing as person with God in eternity. The Spirit is the Spirit of God. You have a spirit and God has a spirit. God is holy and his spirit is the Holy Spirit.
Again the wisdom of man has blinded you from seeing the wisdom of God. That is why you do not understand the son. Jesus is the wisdom of God and if you do not understand him it is because your wisdom comes from man and not God.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Again not a lot of forethought in ths post from you t8. Here's a good idea: why don't you explain how you understand the verses I cited. When you have done this I will address yours and point out the flaws in your reasoning.
To Is 1:18,
John 1:1c doesn't teach that Jesus is God himself as you teach and it teaches that he was WITH God in John 1:1b.
I await your reply. However since this discussion is about the Holy Spirit, I will replicate this post in the appropriate discussion and hope that you answer me from there.
thats it t8 run away like you all ways do.
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