The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

Participant

Hi cubes,
phil 2.13
” for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure”

How?

By the Spirit of God in us.

May 16, 2005 at 3:18 am#10066

Participant

Hi Strowshow,
You say the Son of God is the same substance as the Father. What is you scriptural basis for that assertion? Because they are both of divine nature does not make that nature and substance identical does it? Scripture says there are many gods [1 Cor 8.5]. Does that statement mean that all of them are of the same substance and identity as the Father too?

That blows trinity out of the water surely.

My cat is of the same family as the tiger. But there are a few little differences.

Jesus is the only “only begotten” Son of God but not the only son of God as Job 1.6 and 2.1 and 38.7 tell us. Do you agree? We too can be sons of God.

May 18, 2005 at 3:15 am#10067

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2005,03:36)

Hi cubes,
phil 2.13
” for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure”

How?

By the Spirit of God in us.

Yes Nick,

And these also showing that the Spirit is not a third equal member of a trinity but belonging to God. I feel that Isaiah 33:3 (below) gives further insight in an interesting sort of way when God compares the Egyptians' horses to spirit. Also along the same lines, see Zech 4:6.

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This [is] the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 Cor 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find [such a one] as this [is], a man in whom the Spirit of God [is]?

Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

Isa 31:3 Now the Egyptians [are] men, and not God; and their horses flesh, and not spirit. When the LORD shall stretch out his hand, both he that helpeth shall fall, and he that is holpen shall fall down, and they all shall fail together.

Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him?

Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

When, who and how ever did we get into a “third person of the trinity?” And oh, this one:

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

It says right there that the Lord God and his Spirit… Surely his spirit belongs to him and he has authority over it being God, to accomplish his purposes.

May 18, 2005 at 4:46 pm#10068

Participant

Posted here by request of Cubes:

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father in Heaven and its through His Spirit that one IS God. For the Father is God and everything that has His Spirit is also God!

Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

“God” is a term applied to the Father of which is named the entire Family (Ruling Family – Kingdom) of God. Everyone that has the Father's DIVINE CHARACTER/ATTITUDE (Holy Spirit) is also in that Family (Kingdom) of God!

A great comparison are the historical traditional family names of Americans – whereby the fathers name is applied to all that are his descendants within the family. For example – Joe Shmoe is the father of the Shmoe family. His children receive his attributes of character when they are born and are part of the Shmoe Family or the family of Shmoe. Its simliar with the Father in Heaven (God) – everyone that is Born Again that receives the Holy Spirit (God's Divine Character/Attitude – Holy Spirit) is a member of the Family (Kingdom) of God.

Notice the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit:

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Paul

May 19, 2005 at 1:49 am#10069

Participant

Hi,
The Holy Spirit is indeed the Spirit of God. No man dare blaspheme the Spirit of God. It is poured into any suitable vessel and all human vessels can be used. God makes the vessels.The vessels do not become God but contain the Spirit of God.
But it is only poured into clean vessels. It is our role to wash and prepare those vessels for the Spirit. To say it is the primary work of that Spirit to make the vessels clean is to insult the Spirit of grace in my opinion.
The Spirit comforts us, helps us in our prayers to God for all our needs, teaches and fills us with the nature of Christ and empowers us as children of God.

May 19, 2005 at 3:03 am#10070

Participant

Hi,
If you look at Acts 10.12f
” and there were in it all kinds of four footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air. And a voice came to him
'Arise Peter, kill and eat!'
but Peter said
'By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy or unclean'
And again a voice came to him a second time,
'What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy”
And this happened three times ;and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.
Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold the men who has been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon's house, appeared at the gate”

What was Peter being taught?
Was it to do with foods-no.
Was it to do with accepting gentiles into the kingdom?Yes

But it was also teaching him to obey without natural resort to tradition and experience. And it was particularly about the group of gentiles whom God was about to show him God considered clean vessels ready to be filled with the Spirit despite the fact they had yet to be baptised.

May 19, 2005 at 12:48 pm#10071

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,02:49)

There is no such thing as a suitable vessel. All the vessels were worthy of death for all have fallen short of the Glory of God.

The Holy Spirit is given according to the Father's desire. And its a direct result of that Holy Spirit that IS doing the purging of sin because there is no other means to overcome sin without the Holy Spirit.

Paul

May 19, 2005 at 1:59 pm#10072

Participant

Thanks, Trettep, for posting the said article here. It really helps illuminate that the Spirit is the Father's.

May 19, 2005 at 2:41 pm#10073

Participant

Also, I hope you all don't mind that I cite many of the scriptures in this thread contributed by Nick, Trettep, myself, stroshow and others on CF to demonstrate that YHWH/GOD/FATHER is the primary giver of the Holy Spirit. (Jesus is well able to give us the holy spirit too but since I believe that he is begotten of the Father, it stands to reason that he receives of the Father).

The Trinitarians have also presented their viewpoint with related scriptures that I have yet to examine and probably won't get to for a few days but I plan to read them all because God would make use of his word anyway to help us all know him better, if we would receive it.

May 19, 2005 at 3:49 pm#10074

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 19 2005,15:41)

Cubes, what does the initials CF mean? I noticed you stated them and I don't know what that refers to.

Paul

May 19, 2005 at 4:41 pm#10075

http://www.christianforums.com/f130-unorthodox-theology.html

Participant

Sorry, Trett: CF to me means Christian Forums, which is the first forum I belonged to before coming here. I am here most of the time but do visit them on occasion. I currently have a thread going there to discuss the Holy Spirit with them and I just posted some of the scriptures in this thread over there in the thread titled: Trinitarians: A Question About the Holy Spirit…?, which is in the Unorthodox Theology Section of their forum where non-trinitarians and others are allowed to post.

May 19, 2005 at 4:50 pm#10076

http://www.christianforums.com/f130-unorthodox-theology.html

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ May 19 2005,17:41)

Interesting Cubes. I am regular to a large forum as well and we have been running a Trinity thread for awhile. I was looking at you post on that forum and you brought something to my mind that I don't see discuss often. That is – since the spirits of darkness can occupy the person and the Holy Spirit can occupy a person – what is the true nature of the man apart from occupation? I don't believe I ever investigated what the Bible says about that and may be a good topic for Nick to throw up here.

Paul

May 19, 2005 at 6:54 pm#10077

Participant

Trettep,

There is a thread somewhere here with the discussion about man/soul/spirit…perhaps that deals with that.

I don't have any depth of understanding in this area so I am just thinking out loud: I know that God breathed in the clay and gave it life. That breath is the spirit/life/soul of the man that was formed and he became a living thing. When God calls forth that spirit/life/soul, the man dies.

It is this soul that shall live to God or be condemned to eternal separation, no?
It is this soul that makes me, me and your soul makes you, you…
It is this soul that Jesus commended to the father (*Carpenter…), and that which stephen commended to Christ when dying.

The holy spirit turns that life/soul to a new creation, but the person still has his own original spirit that must constantly be brought into subjection to Christ, though is now empowered to follow the spirit of God as he leads to the degree that he is willing to yield, and the yielding is easier the less we hold on to our own original spirit.

Through the holy spirit, I also suspect that we become One with others who have the spirit of God in a way that we aren't as individuals.

The original spirit is proned to sin and drawn to sin, but is not “possessed” by demons. I say this because Jesus did not cast demons out of the general populace but some, eg. Mary Magdalene and the ?Gadarene Demoniac.

Conversely,

Satan entered Judas, in addition to his own original spirit, leading him to actively pursue evil and betray the son of God.

And then what of those who are oppressed of the devil? they do not necessarily pursue evil but are victims themselves… like the sick. But it is clear that their own nature/spirit is superimposed upon by another of greater strength than they, until Jesus sets them free. It is also interesting to note that certain habits lead to illness… even in eating & drinking excessively, having excessive fits of anger, unforgiveness….

so by bringing the body into subjection to the authority of Christ, one can often times reverse some of these conditions.

I don't know if this comes close to what you had in mind.

May 19, 2005 at 7:58 pm#10078

Participant

Quote (trettep @ May 19 2005,13:48)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2005,02:49)

There is no such thing as a suitable vessel. All the vessels were worthy of death for all have fallen short of the Glory of God.

Paul

Hi trettep,
We are weak earthen vessels that, in death, shatter at the well. We need to find, in Jesus, the fountain of indwelling water to have eternal life. We do not have a righteousness of our own but rely on that of Jesus.
We do not choose ourselves but are called and chosen, cleansed and equipped for God's purposes. God wants everyone to be saved. That means everyone can be saved. All vessels are designed to hold God's Spirit. All vessels can be filled with the Glory of the Spirit of God.
It is just that men are deaf and prefer sin to righteousness. They prefer the visible outside of the cup rather than what other men do not see-the inside.They prefer foolish pride to the reality of humility. They love themselves and not God.

May 19, 2005 at 9:31 pm#10079

Participant

Hi,
The gospels describe many physical healings done by Jesus and on occasion it is mentioned that a spirit caused it-such as the woman crippled by osteoporosis and the epileptic boy. But there is no mention of mental illness. Instead many people are delivered from evil spirits. These spirits ,whether they cause mental or physical disease, sometimes seem to control the sufferers and they are unable to free themselves. Such is the power of the prince of this world and his minions who have to be driven from men by the power of God.

The Spirit of God is meant to be given control over our lives too. The Spirit is not meant to be grieved or suppressed but submitted to by our spirit. The Spirit leads us to love God and the Word and to treat others kindly and share the good news of salvation when we have the opportunity.

When a ship comes near a port a pilot is sent on board to help negotiate the dangers that threaten the ship as it comes to safety at the dock. He knows those risks better than the captain of the ship. It would be most unwise for the captain to not submit that control and to that pilot and continue to steer the ship himself even according to maps and his previous experience. But the pilot does not take over as of right but is given that responsibility by the captain.

Thus with our spirit and the Spirit of God.

May 20, 2005 at 3:53 am#10080

Participant

Hi,
Matt 12.43
” Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places, seeking rest, and does not find it.Then it says
'I will return to my house from which I came '
;and when it comes it finds it unoccupied, swept and put in order.Then it goes and takes along with it 7 other spirits more wicked than itself,and they go and live there;and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first”

So what can we learn from Jesus?

Man is a vessel.
Evil spirits can live in a man's vessel.
The vessel is vulnerable to reoccupation if left empty.
Evil spirits hate water
Evil spirits cause disorder in men's lives.
Evil spirits are restless outside of man.
Evil sprits can think logically as individuals.
Evil spirits can communicate.
Evil spirits can work together.
Evil spirits can enter a man.
Many evil spirits can live in one man.
Evil spirits prefer to reoccupy a man they have been driven from.

The other obvious thought is that that vessel should be occupied by the Spirit of God and was designed for that purpose.

May 20, 2005 at 11:32 am#10081

Participant

Is there even such thing as a normal state of man? For example does man either have a Holy Spirit within him or evil spirits within him? I will be studying this subject starting this evening at the beginning of the sabbath.

Paul

May 20, 2005 at 9:12 pm#10082

Participant

Good question,
My thought is that the closest we see of the normal state of man in scripture is the state of those who received the baptism of John and followed Jesus.
Lk 7.29f
“When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God's justice, having been baptised with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptised by John.
To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? They are like the children who sit in the marketplace and call to one another, and they say
'We played the flute for you and you did not dance;we sang a dirge, and you did not weep. For John the baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say
'He has a demon!'
The Son of Man has come eating and drinking and you say
'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children”

So the baptism of repentance of John cleansed the inside of the vessel but those who did not submit to it still preferred human wisdom and their own false judgements, blind, not recognising Christ. In fact they were antichrist because they still judged according to the flesh.
Mt 23.23
” Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites. For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Woe to you scribes and Pharisees. For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. So you too, outwardly appear righteous to men but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness”

These judgements would have applied to all before the time of John but the rest had submitted to God's path and washed the inside of the cup.So sin ruled mankind when Jesus came and none were righteous.

How long did it last?

Jn 6.60
” Therefore many of his disciples when they heard this said
'This is a difficult statement;who can listen to it?'
But Jesus, conscious that his disciples grumbled at this, said to them
'Does this cause you to stumble? What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life;the flesh profiteth nothing ;the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe….
As a result of this many of his disciples withdrew and were not walking with him anymore. So Jesus said to the 12
You do not want to go away also do you?'
Simon Peter answered him
'Lord, to whom shall we go?'”

So after a short time only 12 remained.

Jesus also taught that the seed of every sin was in man and evil came from within
Mk 7 20
“..That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thouights, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, dees of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man”

So can any man judge? No

Do all sin?
Do all need the baptismal cleansing?

YES

May 21, 2005 at 7:53 pm#10083

Participant

I liken the Holy Spirit unto Holy Instinct. Its a gift unlearned. That when one is Born Again they are a newborn babe and can begin to discern spiritual things. Now there doesn't appear to be a limit to what God gives you of that Instinct. Instinct is Ability. Like when a newborn infant knows to suck on the nipple. I hasn't been taught but rather received this knowledge.

Paul

May 21, 2005 at 9:52 pm#10084