The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2005,06:38)

Hi ss, You mention a triune God. Where is this God in scripture? We have examined the doctrine of trinity and found it to be a very unlikely description of the God we worship, who is the Father. It is not shown plainly in scripture but is a derived concept, a speculation based on misunderstood truth. In fact  since it draws people away from worshipping the Father it is idolatrous. It insults the Father by somehow combining Him with the Son whom He begat and the Spirit He sent to fill us. It is also antichrist as it denies the Son is separate in nature and thus denies he came in the flesh. So the rest is not really relevant is it but folly built on folly?

Nick,
To be fair I do think that posts like to one above have very little impact unless you are prepared to make a build a good argument using scripture. Ive noticed many similar posts here recently, all variations of the same theme, railing against the trinity doctrine. But I suspect these will be generally ignored by trinitarians. It's the law of diminishing returns. Notice that stroshow adressed each of Bic's main points using scripture, that I can respect. Why can you not also do the same? Show me that he is wrong in his assumption that the Holy Spirit is not a person, using scripture, and I might start to take your anti-trinitarian posts more seriously.

[Anonymous]

I wrote:
…wrong in his assumption that the Holy Spirit is not a person

I meant
…wrong in his assumption that the Holy Spirit is a person

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,

Why get caught up in the sideshows when you are working in the big top? Trinity is a sideshow and you have to deny very basic biblical principles to consider accepting it on board. So to each their own.

I believe only the Holy Spirit can teach someone that the trinity doctrine is suspect. When they have been shown by the Spirit then the rest is easy. Till then you are fighting against the antichrist spirit with goes along with that doctrine.

[Anonymous]

Nick,
I don't think the Holy Spirit's identity is a side show at all. Since you refuse to present a counter argument, I have to assume you don't have one.

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
Argument is not helpful. If we were both coming from the same Spirit we would not argue . We would warn and exhort and encourage one another to build up the body of Christ.
Arguments are for those who are not listening but only judging from the basis of their different foundations. Do you agree?

[Anonymous]

2 Timothy 3 (New International Version)
16All Scripture is Godbreathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

[Anonymous]

Nick,
When I use the word 'argument' I mean 'case'. Make a case to support your view. Otherwise your post to Stroshow looks hollow. Since you still refuse to present a counter argument, I have to assume you don't have one.

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
Do I have to make a case that “God is One”? That is step one in belief.

[Cubes]

Quote (stroshow @ April 09 2005,11:03)

He teaches and he reminds believers. (John 14:26) He testifies (John 15:26) He convicts of sin (John 16:8)He guides, hears, speaks and shows (John 16:13) He inspires scripture (Acts 1:16, 2 Peter 1:21) He spoke to Phillip and told him where to minister. (Acts 8:29) He calls to ministry (Acts 13:2) He sends forth his servants( Acts 13:4) He forbids certain actions (Acts 16:6, 7) He intercedes (Romans 8:26) He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:11) He has a mind (Romans 8:27) He has knowledge (1 Corinthians 2:10, 11) He can be treated like a person in that he can be, Lied to (Acts 5:3) Tempted (Acts 5:9) Resisted (Acts 7:51) Grieved (Ephesians 4:30) Outraged (Hebrews 10:29) Blasphemed against

Hi,

Here is how I understand it:  God is one, all by himself.  Not a Trinity.  The Holy Spirit is God's and therefore God in nature, characteristics and attributes.  The scriptures cited are True of the Father who dispenses the varying attributes and offices to and through his holy spirit, his Christ and in some cases, his servants and children.  But all of it originates from the One being, God Almighty.  Funny he should instil in the children of Israel that he is one.  Why?  

Anyway,

When The Most High God wanted to have his Son born on earth, he overshadowed Mary with “the holy ghost/the power of the Highest.”

So at this point I was ready to consider that the Holy Spirit was Yeshua's Father.  But no, Jesus never called him/it Father to my knowledge.  

When God wanted to empower his son, he made him full of the holy spirit, as was John too from the womb.

Same spirit.  But he is not The Father yet from the Father and accomplishing the Father's purposes to the intricate detail of conceiving a son.

Additionally, the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.  The Father does not intercede for us but desires that the righteous intercede for one another and for the lost or poor etc…

Luke 1:31-32,

[NickHassan]

beautiful work cubes. Bless you sister.

[Anonymous]

Thank you Cubes. You, at least had a go. I was looking for someone of the anti-trinitarian crowd however to address all of Stroshows points individually.

[Anonymous]

Cubes,
These points as well (Stroshow, I hope you don't mind me editing your post):

Quote

1. Personal pronoun A neuter pronoun in greek  is available but Jesus chose to use a masculine pronoun when speaking of the Spirit. As mentioned before as just one example. John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. ———————– I looked up this verse in 18 DIFFERENT translations, and encourage you to do the same,  including the following: KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, NLT, ESV, CEV, ASV, YLT, NLT, HCBS, NIRV, WENT,  NIV (UK) The Message, Amplified Bible, 21st Century KJV, Darby. ALL of which translate using personal pronouns, He/Him And if its only in John why is it used in John? In addition, the Gospel of John is NOT the only place where the Holy Spirit is referred to with personal pronouns. Consider the following. Galations 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth “he” it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as “he” will. 2. Personal Name The Holy Spirit does have names. That you choose not to recognize them as such is a different matter. For example he is called the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit etc. these are his names, which along with others defines his attributes and his work. A person is not however determined to be a person based on a name. Cars have names, so do pets, these however are not person. A child, while still in his or her mothers womb may not have been given a name, may be referred to as “the baby”, but none the less is still, a person. The Holy Spirit is defined as a person because of His characteristics, which define him as such. Also, that “the” is used does not take away from his personality. For example, “the God of Abraham” “the God of Isaac” “the God of Jacob” “the Saviour” “the Christ”,” the Son of man” “the Father” the Son of God”, none of these take away from the fact that the Father and the Son are persons. 3. Holy Spirit's Love To begin, passages referring to the love of God would include the Holy Spirit, since he is himself a person of the triune God. In addition your argument here is as valid as one would be to say Jesus loves us more than the Father! When for example did the Father ever die for our sins? When was the Father ever bruised for our transgressions? However to suggest that the Father loves us less than Jesus I’m sure we would agree would be absurd. However since you asked for a verse that speaks of the Spirit’ love… Romans 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and “for the love of the Spirit”, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; What does it mean, “for the love of the Spirit”? Only a “person” can love. 4. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit Why is it that all blasphemies including those against the Father and the Son shall be forgiven, but not against the Holy Spirit? Why is that?

[Cubes]

Not at all, MM.

I have no problem with the pronoun, name or much of anything that Stroshow has said as those things are true of the holy spirit in much the same way that they are true of Christ. The difference I have, and it is a major one, is the 3 in 1 thing.

If the following still doesn't address the issue, please let me know and I shall try to itemize.

I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is an inanimate thing like a door knob or something like that, but rather of a living essence far superior to us, so the pronouns are merely a matter of political correctness. I can say that he is a person or whatever as long as it is understood that he is subjected to God and has no will but that of the Father's.

I was trying to think of him/it in terms I can understand, and I came up with this here parable:

A father impregnates his wife and has a child. The sperm is the agency through which all that is of the Father is imparted to the child to be. And yet, the child when born does not call the sperm, “father.” He calls the one whose sperm it is, father.

The trinity doctrine equalizes the sperm to the man, and makes him a distinct and equal individual. And yet, it was the man's will that brought forth the sperm, and it is his characteristics that the sperm imparts. To follow through with Trinitarianism, the sperm becomes a contender for the child unless of course, it is seen as totally belonging to the man, as a part of the total sum of the man. The attributes imparted to the child becomes that from its father.

In this case, the sperm did that which the man would have it do. In God's case, there are no mistakes whatsover. So this can be taken to a far higher plane of reasoning and we see that the spirit does what the Father has sent him to do and nothing of his own accord. I think this satisfies the discussion under personal pronoun, name and love.

With regards to the Blasphemy, that puzzles me as well and I don't understand it completely, but using my analogy/parable, I have a hypothesis that I can put forth depending on how much this makes sense to others.

[Cubes]

Quote (trettep @ April 03 2005,14:58)

The Holy Spirit is the divine character of God (The Father) in Heaven.  It doesn't suprise me that its referred to as He or Him.  But its not another person.  Look at the Gospel itself for proof.  That says that through Faith in Jesus Christ we may be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven.  For that to take place our Father in Heaven imparts His Spirit (Holy Spirit) to us.  Think of the reproductive process that mankind has.  God made reproduction!  Yet, people seemed amazed to think that the Holy Spirit would be given in the same manner a man passes on his spirit to his children.  Yet reproduction is the working example in the world around us.  So if your desire is to conform to the mind of Christ – that is the desire of the character of God which is the Holy Spirit.  In the Bible it says to be baptized into the Name of Jesus Christ.  “Name” means authority and character of Jesus Christ.  “Baptized” means submerged.  Therefore, one is submerged into the character of Jesus Christ and since Jesus Christ has the same Spirit (character) as the Father (who gave Jesus his character) then we are also being submerged into the Holy Spirit.  That's what it means to be submerged into the Holy Spirit.  It means we are renewing our lives and walking in the direction of conformance to become the perfect man as God had intended us to be.  There is no lightening, no strange feeling or manifestating of images or otherwise.  There shouldn't be any as even the presence of the Holy Spirit itself coming upon one requires Faith!  Let me say that again – that even the receipt of the Holy Spirit requires Faith!  Since the Holy Spirit is character then its you yeilding to and conforming to the Mind of Christ! This is wonderful news and took me very long to be revealed this information but its truely amazing what God is doing here in reproducing his offspring to Rule in the Kingdom (Family) of God as His Children. Paul

Makes sense to me. I have also thought of him as a form of God's DNA, the means by which his children are all related to him through Christ. Of course the powers and office of the holy spirit is broad and exceeds what we know but I think this makes the most sense. Bottomline being that he is God's and from God.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Yes they are fine words, but deceptive words. For this is the full message of salvation according to the 'gospel of trettep'. Faith alone is sufficient in this gospel so there is no such thing as sin, thus no need for repentance or forgiveness by God. He is right that no one can come to God without faith.

But the Father covered the 'sin' of the prodigal son with the cloak of the righteousness of the Son and put the ring of the Spirit power on his finger before the feast. And those at the wedding feast improperly dressed were thrown out into the darkness bound hand and foot.

He forgets, too, that those that expressed faith in Christ for salvation, such as the eunuch and the jailor, were also baptised in water to satify God's requirements. Even those who were baptised in the Spirit first also were baptised in water. And those who had only recieved John's baptism and yet to be baptised into Christ were baptised in water and the Spirit.

No this doctrine is sadly inadequate and outside of the plan of God.

[Cubes]

Hi Nick,

So then trettep is wrong to the extent that he nullifies water baptism, and not necessarily for his attempt to explain the holy spirit, is it? Just so I understand, since my reasoning with regards to the holy spirit lies along similar lines as his.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The problem with that concept to me is that the sperm slowly produces, with the ovum a human being. That is consistent with the growth of the nature or character of Jesus in us as Paul, the patient midwife, discussed in Gal 4.19
“My children, with whom I am in labor until Christ is formed in you…”

But we begin our life in the Spirit with an instant change when we are born again by baptism in the Spirit.That is why many spoke in tongues or praised God when the event occurred in Acts. Peter knew that the Spirit had fallen on to the friends of Cornelius without human request by the evidence shown.

Gal 3.2
” ..Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having BEGUN by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”

[trettep]

Cubes,

If you understand it as I do then you doing well. But let me give a bit more clarification for you. The sperm would be the Word of God. Because the Word of God is the incorruptible seed:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In John 3:3 the word born means a complete birth from conception to delivery. So the birth process is a complete one.

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Notice the verse above comes after the other one quoted above from 1 Peter and is in the same context. One is completely born as a new Child of God.

Its the Holy Spirit that makes the new person and not water baptism.

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The message should be clear that the greatest message is that one can be born into the Family of God. That is the Gospel. There is no greater message. The Family of God is the Kingdom of God – the Kingdom of Heaven.

Also, contrary to what others have said I full heartedly believe one must have works to enter heaven.

Faith without works is dead. There are two types of works in the Bible. The works of the Letter of the Law and the works of Faith. The works of Faith are the Spirit of the Law. Its through those works that one will be saved.

A soul is a body with its spirit. The Holy Spirit is one that comes upon you and compels you to change. Your driven beyond what might seem sensible to many. You will leave your familys if they stand in your way to worship your Father in Heaven and your Lord Jesus Christ. You will not value money or the riches of this world and will consider yourself a sacrafice and honor persecution and seek to help others to understand. You will have an amazing zeal to KNOW the Truth. That is what the Holy Spirit does. As a babe you will grow and your fruit will as well. When you have the Holy Spirit you are of the Highest Royalty.

The Holy Spirit is all about thoughts and thinking. Its a transformation from your thoughts and thinking to that of God and His Son Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is the renewing of your soul. Its though the Holy Spirit that you are truely washed clean and emerge from this pure water as a new creature with a new mind – that of Christ. Nobody emerging from physical water baptism has a new mind in Christ. For only those that have the Holy Spirit are His. The Child of God will stand alone if necessary to be santified and not lose their reward.

As I said before the water baptism was a former preparation that was an example unto the Holy Spirit baptism just as circumcision, the lamb, the sin offerings, and so many others things are former physical types of what was Spiritual to come.

The Holy Spirit is poured out and it comes from authority – from Jesus Christ. As physical water baptism was a type – Christ new the importance of the baptismal authority:

Mar 11:29 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
Mar 11:30 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.

The Holy Spirit comes from authority even as those that did the water baptism formerly had to have authority so now the Holy Spirit which comes by Christ.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

It takes an understanding of what the Holy Spirit is and the purpose of having it to identify whether you have it and this all requires knowledge of the Gospel that one can be born into the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Word of God is what is the seed and that Word of God comes to us in the True Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven (preached by both Christ and John the Baptist). If we trust in Christ and believe the Gospel that through Jesus Christ we can be born into the Kingdom of Heaven via Faith then we will receive the Spirit of the Father in Heaven (Holy Spirit) and we will be at that time born again as the Father's children as new born babes desiring milk. Then we must live a life of Faith demonstrating that Faith and belief in the Spirit of the Law towards our dealth or the appearing of Jesus Christ.

I hope that everyone could believe that message.

Paul

[Cubes]

Hey Nick,

I agree that the baptism and rebirth of the Holy Spirit is instantaneous, as compared to Sperm, and doesn't require an ovum, but it does require our cooperation and compliance in Christ. And even that is a gift.

I don't equate the two or limit the broad powers and attributes of the holy spirit in anyway with my analogy, but it does serve as a reasonable explanation to Luke 1:35, especially since Yeshua calls the the Highest, “my father and my God” as opposed to the Holy Ghost who had overshadowed Mary, his mother.

Now the water baptism issue is another matter entirely as we discussed in the ?Salvation? thread.

[Cubes]

Hello Trettep,

Good to read you again.
I thought your post which I quoted on this thread was a good one to help explain who and what the holy spirit is.

Our new birth is born of the holy spirit, it's true and the characteristics of Christ are found in the holy spirit, so I don't disagree with the bulk of what you've just said.  However, we still run into a roadblock on the water baptism thing since as yet, all the scriptures I find convince me rather that converts to Christ must be baptized:

This is spoken of Saul/Paul:

Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

——–

I don't know why exactly at this time, but John 13 comes to mind with regards to Jesus' washing of his disciples' feet.  And he tells us to do likewise.

John 13:7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”
8 Peter said to Him, “You shall never wash my feet!”
Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head!”
10 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, “You are not all clean.”
12 So when He had washed their feet, taken His garments, and sat down again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you?
13 You call Me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.
16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.
17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

Now I realize that this has to do with humbling ourselves to one another and serving one another, but it also has to do with cleanliness in the spiritual sense of the word (vs. 8 & 10).  Could we even say forgiveness is inclusive here?  

So what did Jesus mean?  Was his point that we go merely seeking feet to wash or is he inviting us to offer cleanliness (water baptism and forgiveness) to those who would receive him?

And what of vs. 7:”What I am doing you do not understand now, but you will know after this.”  What's there to understand…unless there is more to understand.

OK, I am bracing myself.  No rocks, please.  No seriously, I want your insight on this, everyone.

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