The Holy Spirit, a separate person, essence of God, or force?

[stroshow]

bic

Thank you for ur response…

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world
cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither
knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with
you, and shall be in you

I looked up this verse in “18” DIFFERENT translationsincluding the following: KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, NLT,ESV, CEV, ASV, YLT, NLT, HCBS, NIRV, WENT, NIV (UK) The Message, Amplified Bible, 21st Century
KJV, Darby. ALL of which translate using personal
pronouns, He/Him. So i dont understand why you say John is alone.. Are you saying its being mistranslated or in ur option The Holy Spirit should me a “it”

ex:
Galations 3:5 “He” therefore that ministereth to you
the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth “he”
it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of
faith?

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and
the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally
as “he” will.

1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of
Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of
God resteth upon you: on “THEIR” part he is evil
spoken of, but on your part he is glorified

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what
the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that
overcometh will “I” give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that
overcometh will “I“ give to eat of the hidden manna,
and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a
new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that
receiveth it.

Thanks..

[trettep]

The Holy Spirit is the divine character of God (The Father) in Heaven.  It doesn't suprise me that its referred to as He or Him.  But its not another person.  Look at the Gospel itself for proof.  That says that through Faith in Jesus Christ we may be born again into the Kingdom of Heaven.  For that to take place our Father in Heaven imparts His Spirit (Holy Spirit) to us.  Think of the reproductive process that mankind has.  God made reproduction!  Yet, people seemed amazed to think that the Holy Spirit would be given in the same manner a man passes on his spirit to his children.  Yet reproduction is the working example in the world around us.  So if your desire is to conform to the mind of Christ – that is the desire of the character of God which is the Holy Spirit.  In the Bible it says to be baptized into the Name of Jesus Christ.  “Name” means authority and character of Jesus Christ.  “Baptized” means submerged.  Therefore, one is submerged into the character of Jesus Christ and since Jesus Christ has the same Spirit (character) as the Father (who gave Jesus his character) then we are also being submerged into the Holy Spirit.  That's what it means to be submerged into the Holy Spirit.  It means we are renewing our lives and walking in the direction of conformance to become the perfect man as God had intended us to be.  There is no lightening, no strange feeling or manifestating of images or otherwise.  There shouldn't be any as even the presence of the Holy Spirit itself coming upon one requires Faith!  Let me say that again – that even the receipt of the Holy Spirit requires Faith!  Since the Holy Spirit is character then its you yeilding to and conforming to the Mind of Christ! This is wonderful news and took me very long to be revealed this information but its truely amazing what God is doing here in reproducing his offspring to Rule in the Kingdom (Family) of God as His Children.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
Faith and empowerment alone have never been sufficient to enter the kingdom of God. It is not the power we know but who knows us that matters.

Without repentance we all perish.
Without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Without death there is no resurrection.

Your teachings in this area are in rebellion against those of Yeshua and the apostles. They are a new gospel.

[trettep]

Faith in Christ Jesus and doing the Will of God is what is required. Repentance is a life long event. When one is baptized into Jesus Christ they have shed their blood and been crucified and they have died. And this is in agreement with the scriptures.

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:

I have preached the Gospel here and it was received as foolishness.

Those that preach a sign is needed – preach another Gospel.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Nick – what I'm saying is the Truth. I welcome your attempt to prove me wrong from the scriptures in the hope that the same light will shine in you. Maybe you should start in telling me what the Holy Spirit is to you.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,

The word “sign” in scripture has many meanings and there are many words used that it is translated from.
Sign can mean evidence
Sign can mean a witness of something.
Sign can mean signpost.
Sign can mean to write one's name.etc

They are all different.

The evil generation that required a sign were demanding a sign that God was with him. They were demanding works of power that revealed that approval. They wanted evidence.

Baptism is not such a sign . It does not prove God's acceptance but our repentance before Him and before angels and men. It is a witness of our decision.

Yes repentance is ongoing. But repentance is also demanded when we start our journey as Peter told the listeners at Pentecost.we need to be washed all over and then only our feet need to be washed daily.

The Holy Spirit mostly reminds me what the same Spirit wrote through men in the Word.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,20:43)

Hi trettep, The word “sign” in scripture has many meanings and there are many words used that it is translated from. Sign can mean evidence Sign can mean a witness of something. Sign can mean signpost. Sign can mean to write one's name.etc They are all different. The evil generation that required a sign were demanding a sign that God was with him. They were demanding works of power that revealed that approval.  They wanted evidence. Baptism is not such a sign . It does not prove God's acceptance but our repentance before Him and before angels and men. It is a witness of our decision. Yes repentance is ongoing. But repentance is also demanded when we start our journey as Peter told the listeners at Pentecost.we need to be washed all over and then only our feet need to be washed daily. The Holy Spirit mostly reminds me what the same Spirit wrote through men in the Word.

Yes! True baptism isn't a sign because its not a miracle in the sense of a biblical miracle that has outword manifestations. However, I am interested in what you would define the Holy Spirit as and how to know its been received.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi Paul,
The Holy Spirit in Acts is received through the laying on of hands but scripture tells us the Father will give it to any of His children who ask.We first have to become his child.

We are not naturally His children but we have to go through the Gate. Jesus is that gate and no one can come to the Father except through him. He died in our place and to partake in the benefits of that sacrifice we must be baptised in water into his death. Then as the children of God we are entitled to receive the Spirit of God as a downpayment on our salvation. As Jesus said to his followers

” Wait in the city until you are empowered from on High”.

So the baptism in the Spirit is the 'empowerment' of those who are cleansed and forgiven and not the 'process' of that cleansing and forgiveness.

Paul did not explain the gift of the Spirit. He knew those who had received it would know .He let the Spirit's manifestation in gifts, such as the gift of tongues in Acts 19, do the explaining for him. But first he baptised in water them in the name of Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
The Spirit of God is holy. We are not holy. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. We need the robe of righteousness of the Son of God draped around us before we can partake of the Spirit of God. God does not fill dirty vessels with the Spirit of holiness.
If he declares them clean enough as with the case of Cornelius that is His sovereign right but even then proper protocol was followed and they were baptised in water as well.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,21:19)

Hi Paul, The Holy Spirit in Acts is received through the laying on of hands but scripture tells us the Father will give it to any of His children who ask.We first have to become his child. We are not naturally His children but we have to go through the Gate. Jesus is that gate and no one can come to the Father except through him. He died in our place and to partake in the benefits of that sacrifice we must be baptised in water into his death. Then as the children of God we are entitled to receive the Spirit of God as a downpayment on our salvation. As Jesus said to his followers ” Wait in the city until you are empowered from on High”. So the baptism in the Spirit is the 'empowerment' of those who are cleansed and forgiven and not the 'process' of that cleansing and forgiveness. Paul did not explain the gift of the Spirit. He knew those who had received it would know .He let the Spirit's manifestation in gifts, such as the gift of tongues in Acts 19, do the explaining for him. But first he baptised in water them in the name of Jesus.

Can you show me a few things. Can you show me the place in scripture where it shows Paul baptized with water. Remember I know it says he baptized so I'm looking for where it says or shows it was with water.

You also say that the Father gives the Holy Spirit to any of His Children that ask. However, I tell you that his children are His when they have received the Holy Spirit:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I also believe contrary to you that the Baptism is the process of cleaning and is the process of washing. Also, Paul even knew that the Holy Spirit wasn't easily identifiable upon approach. It wasn't always apparent unless it manifested itself like it did to the Apostles on the day of Pentacost.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Did John the baptist baptise with water? Yes he did but reading about him in Acts 18 and 19 it does not say so.

Did Peter and Phillip baptise with water. Yes. Scripture says they did.Was Paul different? Did he have a different Spirit? No. If Paul did not baptise with Water then once again you have duplication of Spirit baptism in Acts 19.

You have never explained these duplications such as in Jn 3.3 trettep but go off on tangents. Are you trying to be tricky or can you not face these questions? Does your disagreement really exist with God rather than us?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Yes the Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are children of God. Reborn by Water and that same Holy Spirit. If the Spirit washes us then the Spirit is not Holy.That insults the Spirit and has no scriptural support.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 03 2005,22:56)

Hi, Did John the baptist baptise with water? Yes he did but reading about him in Acts 18 and 19 it does not say so. Did Peter and Phillip baptise with water. Yes. Scripture says they did.Was Paul different? Did he have a different Spirit? No. If Paul did not baptise with Water then once again you have duplication of Spirit baptism in Acts 19. You have never explained these duplications such as in Jn 3.3 trettep but go off on tangents. Are you trying to be tricky or can you not face these questions? Does your disagreement really exist with God rather than us?

Nick, tell me where I haven't answered your questions and I will. I don't believe I'm going off on “tangents”. I had to look it up first as I didn't know what it meant and don't believe I'm doing so. You make an argument that Paul was baptizing with water later because he had the same spirit. I would even say that he may have but that is not my point. My point is that the Apostles were doing water baptisms until Peter realized that the believers would be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

As for John 3:3 – here is what it says:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Born again means having received the Holy Spirit. Its the Holy Spirit that tells one they are in the Family of God. Think about it like this. If a spirit is the character of one then if they have the Spirit of God and have God's character then wouldn't that make them a member of the Family of God? Of course it would!

Also, I'm not sure why you think I'm being tricky. What gain would I have to be tricky? I don't except donations and don't belong to any organization to win you over to. I labor for you all. I have no pride and even admit my errors. I made an error on the easter thread and admitted it so that it wouldn't be a stumbling block. I care about what you all are being taught and understand. I don't defend the Faith! The Gates of Hell cannot prevail against God's Church. So there is nothing for me to defend! I seek the Truth and what I learn I try to teach. I have many thoughts about various other topics here but won't talk about them unless I really feel convicted that I know the answer.

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi trettep,
“Born again means having received the Holy Spirit”

Does it?

That may be your opinion but scripture does not agree with you.

Jn 3.5 says you must be born again of Water AND the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.
Both are required.

[trettep]

And indeed both will one get when the Spirit of God comes upon them.

Paul

[trettep]

Now a question for you. How many baptisms are there to become Born Again?

Paul

[NickHassan]

hi,
Jn 7.37
” If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture said
'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water”

So to receive the water of life we have to go to Jesus. We have to go to the gate and go through the gate. We receive the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Life. Jesus became a life giving spirit and we too have the Spirit leading to eternal life. We no longer need to take our pitcher to the well[Jn 4. Ecc 12]And we have this gift to give to others who also are seeking that life.

So where does it say anything about a washing Spirit?

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2005,01:37)

hi, Jn 7.37 ” If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in me, as the scripture said 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water” So to receive the water of life we have to go to Jesus. We have to go to the gate and go through the gate. We receive the Holy Spirit who is the Spirit of Life. Jesus became a life giving spirit and we too have the Spirit leading to eternal life. We no longer need to take our pitcher to the well[Jn 4. Ecc 12]And we have this gift to give to others who also are seeking that life. So where does it say anything about a washing Spirit?

Now I have asked two questions and you have not answered.

To answer yours:

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Paul

[NickHassan]

Hi,
You must be born again of water AND the Spirit to enter the kingdom so two baptisms-one of earth and one of heaven. There are many baptisms as shown in Hebrews 6 1-2. When Eph 4 talks of one baptism it means water baptism because if you check the context you will see it already mentions that we are one in Spirit.
That is the difference between our approaches. You read baptism in the NT as baptism in the Spirit because you have already decided it is the only one required. I read baptism in the NT as reading water baptism unless otherwise specified. I think mine is the simpler and more straightforward approach, one that a perdson with the faith of a child might choose.
If Titus 3. 5 meant just baptism in the Spirit would it read “by the washing of regeneration, AND renewing of the Holy Ghost”? I think not. Those little “ands” keep tripping you up.

[trettep]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 04 2005,02:56)

Hi, You must be born again of water AND the Spirit to enter the kingdom so two baptisms-one of earth and one of heaven. There are many baptisms as shown in Hebrews 6 1-2. When Eph 4 talks of one baptism it means water baptism because if you check the context you will see it already mentions that we are one in Spirit. That is the difference between our approaches. You read baptism in the NT as baptism in the Spirit because you have already decided it is the only one required. I read baptism in the NT as reading water baptism unless otherwise specified. I think mine is the simpler and more straightforward approach, one that a perdson with the faith of a child might choose. If Titus 3. 5 meant just baptism in the Spirit would it read “by the washing of regeneration, AND renewing of the Holy Ghost”? I think not. Those little “ands” keep tripping you up.

Look at Titus 3:6:

Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;

Now look at WEB translation since your focused on AND:

Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;

The “ands” don't trip me up. I have several concordances to get me past the “ands”.

Paul

[NickHassan]

hi,
What you see there in Titus 3 and what I see are obviously quite different. Certainly there is no clear directional change from the simple gospel of Jesus Christ though.

The Spirit wrote the Word through men. You seem convinced that you are one of the very few who are able to discern the truth and we are all obviously not of the Spirit to you if we disagree with your insights. Is that how you see it? There are other possibilities too.

I do not doubt your sincerity and your knowledge and determination. All we would ask is that you consider the insights of others too. If we are of the same Spirit then we are here to help each other in our search for truth. None of us can say we are uniquely granted wisdom and sent like Elijah to the ignorant masses.

We have learned from you. Thank you. Have you learned from us?

[Author]

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