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Hi Jodi,
Should we add our ideas to scripture?
Satan has always tested men according to the will of God.Lk22
30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2008,10:09) Hi Jodi,
Should we add our ideas to scripture?
Satan has always tested men according to the will of God.Lk22
30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Hi Nick,Let's not forget that the word satan, does not represent one spiritual being but it is the WORD in Hebrew meaning adversary. There are many forms of adversaries known unto man, one included is God Himself and His messengers, and they are directly called such in the bible.
Plain and simple, the adversary in the book of Job was not against God, nor was he jealous of God, He was doing the Will of God through the DIRECTION of God.
Hi Jodi,
Really? Is that how you see it?
Jesus seemed to have a different view and we should believe scripture.Do you believe it is true?
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,05:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2008,10:09) Hi Jodi,
Should we add our ideas to scripture?
Satan has always tested men according to the will of God.Lk22
30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Hi Nick,Let's not forget that the word satan, does not represent one spiritual being but it is the WORD in Hebrew meaning adversary. There are many forms of adversaries known unto man, one included is God Himself and His messengers, and they are directly called such in the bible.
Plain and simple, the adversary in the book of Job was not against God, nor was he jealous of God, He was doing the Will of God through the DIRECTION of God.
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,05:43) Plain and simple, the adversary in the book of Job was not against God, nor was he jealous of God, He was doing the Will of God through the DIRECTION of God.
Satan was and is an enemy of God which you and GB have chosen to close your eyes to in order to support this heresy that satan does not exist.You have failed to show how satan could tempt God to destroy Job and be God’s friend or messenger.
I will post part of an earlier post and see if you can give us an answer. You are so arrogant toward everyone like Tiffany who doesn’t agree with your heresy by refusing to accept scripture that clearly teaches against you. Even a child can read the scriptures and see that satan, the devil is a sentient being who is against God and his people without all the special pleading and inference you make.
Here is the post…
Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11)
Notice how God TRUSTS Satan to do to Job what THEY AGREED upon, and that Satan KEPT that TRUST.
Really, so now “God’s friend” not adversary moved God’s hand against God’s servant Job?And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although 'thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause”. Job 2:3
So God “trusted” satan who desired to destroy his servant without cause?
Again, to prove a point God “allowed” satan to lay his hand on Job without taking his life to show the Angels that Job was perfect in all his ways. Just as God allowed Pilate to hand over Yeshua to be crucified when the Father could have stopped them.
Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11) To try and fit the actual behavior of Satan in the book of Job to the story of a jealous fallen angel who hates God is creating nothing but a pure lie.
Look again…And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
If satan wanted to destroy Job, God’s servant without cause then he hated Job and therefore hated God.
So I guess you need to get out the whiteout again or change your theology again.
Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11) So according to you WJ, God finds it necessary to have some sinful being do His work for Him? Talk about portraying God with a serious lack of honor and integrity. According to you, God with his own hands does not afflict us, He just ALLOWS someone else to do so? Lies!
No I just believe the scriptures as they read without special pleading and inference.The scriptures clearly show that God gave satan permission to afflict Job. I never said God doesn’t punish evil or rebellion. I said God does not bring afflictions and sickness or disease on his servants, those who follow him.
So who is telling lies? Scriptures show God allows satan to afflict or persecute God’s servants as he did with Yeshua and Peter and Paul and every other child of God who is in the battle against the prince of the power of the air, and the spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies
Quote (Jodi @ Sep. 20 2008,08:11) So the affliction that Job receives must have come from a sinful angel because according to you God would never do such things with His own hands. You IMO have a very warped understanding of who God is.
No it is you who has the warped understanding of who God is. For you say that the enemy of Job who desires his life without cause is a friend of God.WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2008,10:47) Hi Jodi,
Really? Is that how you see it?
Jesus seemed to have a different view and we should believe scripture.Do you believe it is true?
Nick what proof do you have that the adversary in Job, is the same adversaries as given in the NT, that are against the ways of God.Here we have adversaries to man that are God's Messengers, following God's Will as did the adversary in Job.
YLT-Nu 22:22 and the anger of God burneth because he is going, and a messenger of Jehovah stationeth himself in the way for an adversary to him, and he is riding on his ass, and two of his servants [are] with him,
22:32 and the messenger of Jehovah saith unto him, `Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? lo, I — I have come out for an adversary, for [thy] way hath been perverse before me,
The adversary in Job was not a fallen being against God, there is nothing in the text that substantiates that idea.
Quote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,06:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2008,10:47) Hi Jodi,
Really? Is that how you see it?
Jesus seemed to have a different view and we should believe scripture.Do you believe it is true?
Nick what proof do you have that the adversary in Job, is the same adversaries as given in the NT, that are against the ways of God.Here we have adversaries to man that are God's Messengers, following God's Will as did the adversary in Job.
YLT-Nu 22:22 and the anger of God burneth because he is going, and a messenger of Jehovah stationeth himself in the way for an adversary to him, and he is riding on his ass, and two of his servants [are] with him,
22:32 and the messenger of Jehovah saith unto him, `Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? lo, I — I have come out for an adversary, for [thy] way hath been perverse before me,
The adversary in Job was not a fallen being against God, there is nothing in the text that substantiates that idea.
Hi JodiQuote (Jodi @ Dec. 23 2008,06:26) The adversary in Job was not a fallen being against God, there is nothing in the text that substantiates that idea. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
If satan wanted to destroy Job, God’s servant without cause then he hated Job and therefore hated God.
Any being that seeks to destroy God's servants is a sinful “Fallen” being and is against God.
Our master says satan exist and spoke to him in the wilderness.
The Apostles preached that he is the god of this world.
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and “from the power of Satan unto God,” that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18
WJ
WJ, if God didn't TRUST the adversary in Job, then He wouldn't have allowed him to touch him at all.
Did the adversary ever once go beyond that which God told him to do?
God wasn't trying to prove to the adversary anything! You need to read the book IN CONTEXT, which is FROM the perspective of a human being. The book of Job should be read and understood as a true story passed down by the Israelites, who referred to God's inflicting messengers as Satans.
Did not Job LEARN a great deal from his trials, don't WE learn a great deal from the story?
What the adversary said about Job was true, he pointed out that the reason why Job obeyed God was because he had everything handed to him in life, he had no reason to spite God.
1:10
Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.2:3Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
The adversary never said that he wanted to kill Job. You are reading this out of context. The messenger wanted God to destroy the life that Job knew. He was a worker of God, who's job was to roam earth and oversee people. This messenger saw fit that Job needed his character worked on.
Once again I would like to point out that sinners DO NOT dwell in the presence of God. This adversary was a Son of God like the rest that went to meet with the Lord. To the author however, in this case, he was seen as Job's adversary and that is why he is written as being a satan.
WJ
Just thinking here………..
I thought our opponent is our carnal flesh – God created all the angels, to do his bidding – us, to do his bidding. The adversary was created to be our adversary, just because we have an adversary does not mean that God has an adversary.
God created the {tree} of knowledge of good and evil – he did not create good and then evil just magically appeared outside of his control to test God. God being all powerful means that nothing is outside of Gods control ……….. it takes away Gods power thinking that there is something that can oppose God. God created the adversary and it is used by God to test his creation.
If you look at the words in Job 2:3 Job was a man who only had good things and was innocent and did not experience evil until the adversary was used to test Job.
Does this story sound a bit like Adam and the fall?
eschewest =
H5493
שׂוּר סוּר
sûr śûr
soor, soor
A primitive root; to turn off (literally or figuratively): – be [-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), X grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, X be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.integrity =
H8538
תּמּה
tûmmâh
toom-maw'
Feminine of H8537; innocence: – integrity.without cause=
H2600
חנּם
chinnâm
khin-nawm'
From H2580; gratis, that is, devoid of cost, reason or advantage: – without a cause (cost, wages), causeless, to cost nothing, free (-ly), innocent, for nothing (nought), in vain.Without cost seems to be related to the wages of sin is death.
Hi mk,
If Satan is only a servant of God why is he punished?Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.He is used by God but he has been judged.
Jn16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Hi mk,
1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,07:09) Hi mk,
If Satan is only a servant of God why is he punished?Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.He is used by God but he has been judged.
Jn16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Hi NHGood points!
WJ
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,04:41) Irene, God is not a man with a physical body – to interact with us he does it by his Spirit which we can't see – Jesus said spirit is like the wind – it is not a physical thing in time and space – God is not like an alien that lives in outer space or on the moon.
Spirit is an other dimension – all physical beings/material are bound to time/space and obey the physical laws e.g, gravity, our whole universe is part of that physical creation and there are many more universes beyond that which are still physical – God is a spirit, which is separate from the physical. He didn't create the universes in a separate place from him because he is outside of time/space, he created time/space. When Jesus said that the kingdom of God doesn't come from observation and it is inside of us that is what he meant – it is not something that we see with our physical eyes it is beyond anything physical and is seen with “spiritual” eyes that we have.
Are you talking to a child? No kidding God is like a Spirit, really….You are insulting me…Another dimension, you got to be kidding me……..
Really he is not an Alien……
Come on give me a break.
IreneQuote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:05) WJ Just thinking here………..
I thought our opponent is our carnal flesh – God created all the angels, to do his bidding – us, to do his bidding. The adversary was created to be our adversary, just because we have an adversary does not mean that God has an adversary.
God created the {tree} of knowledge of good and evil – he did not create good and then evil just magically appeared outside of his control to test God. God being all powerful means that nothing is outside of Gods control ……….. it takes away Gods power thinking that there is something that can oppose God. God created the adversary and it is used by God to test his creation.
This view point says that God has no enemies.Sounds good, however the scriptures teach that even men oppose God. There are many enemies of God. Shall I list all of the scriptures that show this.
Jesus spoke of a kingdom of darkness, satan's kingdom. Is that kingdom not “opposed” to God?
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 23 2008,07:05)
If you look at the words in Job 2:3 Job was a man who only had good things and was innocent and did not experience evil until the adversary was used to test Job.Does this story sound a bit like Adam and the fall?
eschewest =
H5493
שׂוּר סוּר
sûr śûr
soor, soor
A primitive root; to turn off (literally or figuratively): – be [-head], bring, call back, decline, depart, eschew, get [you], go (aside), X grievous, lay away (by), leave undone, be past, pluck away, put (away, down), rebel, remove (to and fro), revolt, X be sour, take (away, off), turn (aside, away, in), withdraw, be without.integrity =
H8538
תּמּה
tûmmâh
toom-maw'
Feminine of H8537; innocence: – integrity.without cause=
H2600
חנּם
chinnâm
khin-nawm'
From H2580; gratis, that is, devoid of cost, reason or advantage: – without a cause (cost, wages), causeless, to cost nothing, free (-ly), innocent, for nothing (nought), in vain.Without cost seems to be related to the wages of sin is death.
Satan was allowed by God to afflict Job without taking his life even though his desire was to destroy Job who was perfect in all his ways.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although “THOU MOVEDST ME AGAINST HIM, TO DESTROY HIM WITHOUT CAUSE”. Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; “BUT SAVE HIS LIFE“. Job 2:6
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,09:09) Hi mk,
If Satan is only a servant of God why is he punished?Rev20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.He is used by God but he has been judged.
Jn16
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
Because “the devil” is the origin of carnal nature and carnal nature has nothing to do with the Spirit – they are opposed to each other – God created adversity to do his biddingGod created the {tree} of good and evil – evil did not create itself.
Hi MK,
Where does scripture say the devil is the origin of our carnal nature?
Man is made of earth and submitted to the god of this earth in Genesis.
So the vessel is now sullied and needs cleansing of the dominion of darkness withinQuote (Tiffany @ Dec. 23 2008,06:17) Gen and Jodi! Sorry but I do not agree with you both. The heaven the Bible speaks of is where God's Throne is. Where exactly that is in the Universe I don't know. Has to be not to far of, since the earth is His footstool. Why do you think they were thrown down to earth? It is because of their sins. Satan was Jealous and wanted the Throne of God. He wanted to be God. Well he is God of this earth, right now. When Jesus comes at the end Jesus will destroy Satan along with the Demons and Antichrist in the Lake of Fire. No more tears no more sorrow only peace and happiness. Eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard the things for them that love Him. For that I will wait with open arms.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,Sorry if I offended you,
You say you don't know where in the universe his throne is …… but God created the universe – his throne is where he was before he created the universe. If he created the universe I don't see how he can also be physically in the universe at the same time.Hi MK,
Gal5
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
So lusts are of our fleshly earthy nature and sin conceives as we follow our father Adam and his satanic father.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2008,10:23) Hi MK,
Where does scripture say the devil is the origin of our carnal nature?
Man is made of earth and submitted to the god of this earth in Genesis.
So the vessel is now sullied and needs cleansing of the dominion of darkness within
John 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.Matt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
When man was made out of the earth
earth =
H6083
עפר
‛âphâr
aw-fawr'
From H6080; dust (as powdered or gray); hence clay, earth, mud: – ashes, dust, earth, ground, morter, powder, rubbish.It seems to me that our very earthly nature has an inherent problem of being mortal, corruptible.
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