Satan

[NickHassan]

HI H,
Reference please?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Mt 16
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates [4439] of hell shall not prevail against it.

Number 4439
Transliteration:
pule {poo'-lay}
Word Origin:
apparently a primary word
TDNT:
6:921,974
Part of Speech:
noun feminine
Usage in the KJV:
gate 10

Total: 10
Definition:
a gate
of the larger sort
in the wall of either a city
a palace
a town
the temple
a prison
the gates of hell (likened to a vast prison)
metaph. the access or entrance into any state

[twodoggzz]

Satan wanted to be God. He challenged God's authority. At one time he was Lucifer “The bright and shining one”….but God cast him down.

It helps for me to think of my body as a “sack”, truly we are mostly water. I had a dream as a young man that I was killed. I knew I was going to die and was filled with intense fear… but the moment of my death, I was released from this “sack”, which I now recognized as putrid and I was filled with shame and wanted to hide it, bury it….but I was leaving that place in a joy filled spirit, I knew myself but was unshackled with a physical body. I knew I was Father has created a place for me to be with his chosen ones and it is going to be better than we can imagine. Truly, this life filled with sin “in this sack” is a trial and we must realize that inside that sack is a spirit that chooses God and his salvation. Soon, the sin will be gone and our eternal life will begin.

[seekingtruth]

twodoggzz,
Good post and welcome, I read your other post on searching for truth and just want to encourage you to stick around. There is much dis-agreement at times, but I have grown more here in 2 years then in the 20 before. When your posting it forces you to determine what you believe and why. There are some here only interested in tradition or pushing their belief (even an atheist who ridicules all belief) but there is a core group who want truth and to grow closer to God. Look forward to more of your posts.

Wm

[Irene]

Quote (twodoggzz @ July 24 2008,18:04)

Satan wanted to be God. He challenged God's authority. At one time he was Lucifer “The bright and shining one”….but God cast him down. It helps for me to think of my body as a “sack”, truly we are mostly water. I had a dream as a young man that I was killed. I knew I was going to die and was filled with intense fear… but the moment of my death, I was released from this “sack”, which I now recognized as putrid and I was filled with shame and wanted to hide it, bury it….but I was leaving that place in a joy filled spirit, I knew myself but was unshackled with a physical body. I knew I was Father has created a place for me to be with his chosen ones and it is going to be better than we can imagine. Truly, this life filled with sin “in this sack” is a trial and we must realize that inside that sack is a spirit that chooses God and his salvation. Soon, the sin will be gone and our eternal life will begin.

Welcome to the site. I share the same truth about Satan. He has fallen from Heaven like lightning. He is a real being, an Angel going bad. And 1/3 of the Angels followed him.
Peace and Love to you, Irene

[Hanoch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2008,16:05)

HI H, Reference please?

Look through the Scriptures…

[NickHassan]

hmmm
I would have thought if you had the evidence you would love to share it.

[gollamudi]

Hi Twodoggzz,
Welcome to this wonderful family of Heavennet. Please do share your views this is a place where you can release your all inhibitions on biblical doctrines.
Thanks and blessings
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

To All…….If you understand what spirit is then the whole thing about Satan and Devils becomes clearer . A Spirit is a intellect we learn from ,it is knowledge, there is both clean spirit and unclean spirit, if we sow to the unclean spirit we will eventually become possessed by it, like wise if we sow to the clean spirit we will also become posses by it. God was teaching the ancient Israelites that, with the physical act of clean and unclean animals and the word (EAT) which spiritually means to take to ones self. He wanted them to understand its what you take to yourself that can give you a clean mind or an unclean mind, and it effects our lives. When a person who had a mental problem took in unclean thoughts they would become sick and were branded as having a unclean spirit in them, which in fact they did if you understand Spirit is intellect that effects our behaviors. The people of Jesus day did not understand mental illnesses and so they branded people who were mentally sick as demon posed, we still do this with people who have dementia an illness caused by the shrinking of the brain. These people become very violent at times.

Jodi….gave a very good explanation about this subject of Satan and devils and demons. Another good explanation is given by Sir Isaac Netwon on the Newton project site.

Peace to All……….gene

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
Are we possessed by false ideas and these are what Jesus cast out?
All the mentally ill are like they are because of their evil thoughts??

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick….when did i say (ALL) the mental ill are like that, again your adding word to what is am saying. You need to be a little more careful on posting what you perceive as what people are saying, thats definitely part of the problem on this site. In fact what i said was they were perceived by the people of that time as having demonic spirits in them and if you understood what demonic spirit is, they did have it, but it wasn't a separate being or devil going around jumping into people.

And yes Jesus did cast out many false ideas and perceptions of people.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
“. A Spirit is a intellect we learn from ,it is knowledge, there is both clean spirit and unclean spirit, if we sow to the unclean spirit we will eventually become possessed by it, like wise if we sow to the clean spirit we will also become posses by it. God was teaching the ancient Israelites that, with the physical act of clean and unclean animals and the word (EAT) which spiritually means to take to ones self. He wanted them to understand its what you take to yourself that can give you a clean mind or an unclean mind, and it effects our lives. When a person who had a mental problem took in unclean thoughts they would become sick ”

So if those who are mentally ill take in unclean thoughts they are causing their own illness?
How did they become mentally ill in the first place.
Who is the one who SOWED mental illness in them?
What are the demons that spoke with Jesus?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..You have ask complex questions but i will try to answer them as simply as i can.

Mental illness can be at birth or it can came through injury or drug use or associating ones self with pornography and unclean and filthy acts as in the case of Jeff Dormers who Physiologist say got his start with porn magazines and progressed to the state he finally came to. His last state was worse then his first state, this shows a progression of causality. A mentally ill person who is exposed to unclean thoughts will get worse, as well as a non mentally ill person will.

You ask who is the one who sowed mental illness in them, who said it was sowed in them as explained above.

The “Demons” that spoke to Jesus were simply what we call today multiple personality disorders and some are by polar disorders . These people exhibit different personalities which is a result of mental illnesses, no demons or devils Jumping in and out of them. I have had a personal experience with this once. I was working on a Job and saw a man writting on a slab of cement and talking to himself and i ask him what he was doing and he begain to speak all kinds of wierd things so i started leaving and he began to follow me and when i got to my truck i turned and said to him i believe you are posses by something and He fell down and began to say i am not mean, i am not mean, and i said i never said you were and i ask him when did these things start happening to him and told me He had got hit with lighting when he was young and after that it started. The lightning obliviously was the cause of it, and it effected his mind and reason. There was no demon who Jumped in him, only mental illness caused by the lightning strike. There is a cause for every effect that exists, those people at the time of Jesus were ignorant of the causes and attributed it to demons as many “Christians” do today.
But most today understand the causes are not demonic beings jumping in and out of people.

[NickHassan]

Hi Gb,
You still have not explained anything.
Reading and thinking and doing drugs does not make you mentally ill.

Jesus spoke with a legion called a multiple personality disorder?
Do you accept the authority of scripture?
What does scripture say?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..You are wrong thinking reading and porno and other filthy things and doing Drugs can and has made people mentally ill. Even people who smoke to much marijuana become paranoid in time as has been proved, Some drugs cause such sever brain damage that there mind is so severely damaged they have to be institutionalized for the rest of their lives.

Mentally illness is just a state of mind that is not what we conceder normal. A serial killer is mentally ill, his rational is distorted.

I do accept the authority of scriptures its (YOUR) limited understanding i don't except, not scripture at all. And you present yourself as a scriptural excepting person but when myself and other present them you simply ignore them, So you need to ask (YOURSELF) if YOU accept the “AUTHORITY” of scripture. That would be the better question.

Nick…look you don't intimidate me so quite trying and stay on subject matter instead of casting condescending remarks at me , that the leaders of this site seem to allow you to continue to do.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So how did Jesus hold conversations with these so called free intellects and illnesses?
Where did they come from and why were they frightened by him?
Illnesses cannot speak can they?

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick…..where did the word (FREE) intellects come from, not from me thats your assertions not mine. The mental ill can speak and some with multiple personalities ask any psychologist. Nick you stuck in first century reasoning and don't understand, those people attributed any mental illness as demonic possessions, but science and modern medicine and psychologist have proved that untrue, what Jodi wrote is true, you need to think about it more.

[NickHassan]

Hi GB,
So science has disproven the truth of the words of Jesus?
Who is your master?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi Jodi

Sorry I have been away!

I must admit you have made a believer out of me. You have shown me that a person can make scriptures say what ever they want them to say, even if there are mountains of evidence that clearly contradicts their belief.

I have a few questions for you? Do you have any Greek or Hebrew language degrees? Or do you have any theological degrees at all? Are you a Greek or Hebrew scholar? Can you read Greek or Hebrew? Do you understand the linguistics of the languages, or can you translate a single verse of scripture?

If not, then who do you think you are to appose over 600 scholars who translated the Bibles on Biblegateway.com and Blueletterbible.org and the 1000s of commentators writings by misquoting scriptures and twisting them to fit your heretical doctrine, and trashing centuries of studies on the subject of satan and demons?

But you did exactly what I expected you would. You made a short comment on my questions, and then proceeded with tons of your rhetoric all over again, thereby creating a diversion from the scriptures discussed.

Jodi, maybe you can give me just one source who is an expert in translation or a credible theologian who agrees with you. I notice you never quote any sources for your heretical belief. Maybe you could give us a commentator like William Barclay, or John MacArthur Jr., or Warren Wiersbe, or David Guzik, or W.E. Vine, Darby | Geneva | Gill | Jamieson Faussett Brown | Johnson | Lightfoot | Matthew Henry | Matthew Henry Concise | McGarvey Pendleton | McGee | Wesley |Etc.?

Apparently you place your knowledge of this subject above theirs. Don’t get me wrong, I am sure I do not agree with some of the things they may teach, however it would not be a subject that they all unanimously would disagree with me on, or I would be humble enough to admit that I am wrong. So let’s take a closer look at what the scriptures truly say by looking at a few Greek words and giving you the definitions and interpretations from the experts.

Quote (Jodi @ July 23 2008,06:35)

WJ, you said, “Sicknesses, mental illnesses, infections and the like do not have a kingdom, nor does a single man or corporate man have a kingdom called the kingdom of darkness in which he rules. Nor does man know apart from a supernatural revelation from a demon or unclean spirits or the Holy Spirit that Yeshua is the Son of God. First and foremost where is this supernatural revelation from a demon to mankind that Yeshua is the Son of God? And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Mk 1:34 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them. And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. Luke 4:40, 41 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not. Luke 8:28 Many people said that they believed in the Son of God and that they did works for Yeshua in his name. Yeshua also said to some people who said that they ‘knew him and followed him,’ that he did not know them. Man’s words are often lies. When Yeshua told Peter that he was blessed because the Father revealed to him that Yeshua was indeed the Son of God, is a separate case all together, from anyone else calling out to Yeshua that he is the Son of God. WJ, do you  REALLY think that all instances in the bible or those accepting the word of the bible that when they say that Jesus is the Son of God, that the Father in every instance REVEALED it to them? That would be quite naïve now wouldn’t it? Just because the unclean spirits say, 'you are the Son of God,' does not mean in anyway that they were like Simon Peter, being revealed things by God the Father.

Wrong again! They crucified Jesus because he said he was the Son of God. To the Hebrew claiming to be a Son of God was the same as claiming to be equal to him, for it would have meant you came directly from YHWH. The concept of a  Son of God let alone “The Son of God” was not known until Yeshua came on the scene and revealed it through Peter and later the Apostles. Or else why did it take the Father to reveal this to Peter? It was upon that revelation that the church would be built, and Yeshua makes it known that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Quote (Jodi @ July 23 2008,06:35)

WJ, do you  REALLY think that all instances in the bible or those accepting the word of the bible that when they say that Jesus is the Son of God, that the Father in every instance REVEALED it to them? That would be quite naïve now wouldn’t it?

Here is a challenge for you.
Show me one example before Yeshua’s resurrection of anyone who was not possessed with an unclean spirit that knew Yeshua and called him the Son of God besides Peter who was given the revelation directly from the Father.

But you would explain the phenomena away simply by saying the revelation given to Peter is a different thing, and then you twist the scriptures by claiming the demons or unclean spirits didn't mean what they said when they called Yeshua the Son of God, when clearly the scriptures say that “they knew him” and because of this Yeshua silenced them. Jesus said that it was not flesh and blood that revealed it to Peter, which would mean that these unclean spirits were more than just men for they clearly understood who he was.

These demons or unclean spirits knew who Yeshua was because they are and were spiritual beings that are apposed to Yeshua and knew of the Father and the Spirit.

Listen to the scriptures again.

…KJV Luke 4:41
and devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV
And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!” And He, rebuking them, did not allow them to speak, for they knew that He was the Christ.
Footnote: NU-Text omits the Christ. New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT
Some were possessed by demons; and the demons came out at his command, shouting, “You are the Son of God.” But because they knew he was the Messiah, he stopped them and told them to be silent. New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.
Footnote: Or Messiah New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV
And demons also came out of many, crying, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB
Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But rebukin
g them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV
And demons also came out of many, crying, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV
And demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying, Thou art the Son of God. And rebuking them, he suffered them not to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young
And demons also were coming forth from many, crying out and saying — `Thou art the Christ, the Son of God;' and rebuking, he did not suffer them to speak, because they knew him to be the Christ. Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby
and demons also went out from many, crying out and saying, *Thou* art the Son of God. And rebuking them, he suffered them not to speak, because they knew him to be the Christ.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster
And demons also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them], suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV
Demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying, “You are the Messiah, the Son of God!” Rebuking them, he didn't allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Messiah.

Is there anyway an honest person can read this scripture and infer that these demons or unclean spirits were sickness or mental illness and that Yeshua is telling mental illness to go out into the abyss? Why all the extra biblical use of words?

Why doesn’t the scripture say he healed their minds of mental illness, or he healed them of their madness? Why do the witnesses use the terms “cast out”, “came out”, “possessed”, Etc?

The NET renders the verse…

4:40 As the sun was setting, all those who had any relatives134 sick with various diseases brought them to Jesus.135 He placed136 his hands on every one of them and healed them. 4:41 Demons also came out137 of many, crying out,138 “You are the Son of God!”139 But he rebuked140 them, and would not allow them to speak,141 because they knew that he was the Christ.142

The NET Bible is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. Turn the pages and see the breadth of the translators’ notes, documenting their decisions and choices as they worked. The translators’ notes make the original languages far more accessible, allowing you to look over the translator’s shoulder at the very process of translation. This level of documentation is a first for a Bible translation, making transparent the textual basis and the rationale for key renderings (including major interpretive options and alternative translations). This unparalleled level of detail helps connect people to the Bible in the original languages in a way never before possible without years of study of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. It unlocks the riches of the Bible’s truth from entirely new perspectives. Source.

Here is their commentary on the verse (emphasis mine), which I am sure you disagree with. The numbers correspond with the numbers in the verse.

137sn Demons also came out. Note how Luke distinguishes healing from exorcism here, implying that the two are not identical.
138tn Grk “crying out and saying.” The participle λέγοντα (legonta) is redundant in English and has not been translated here.
139tc Most mss (A Q Θ Ψ 0102 �1,13 �) read “the Christ, the Son of God.” But the earliest and best mss, along with several other witnesses (א B C D L W Ξ 33 579 700 1241 2542 lat sa), lack “the Christ” here. It is likely that later scribes wished to bring the demons’ confession in line with what Luke says they knew later in the verse.
140tn Or “commanded,” but “rebuke” implies strong disapproval, which seems to be more in keeping with the context here (L&N 33.419).
141sn Jesus would not allow the demons to speak because the time for such disclosure was not yet at hand, and such a revelation would have certainly been misunderstood by the people. In all likelihood, if the people had understood him early on to be the Son of God, or Messiah, they would have reduced his mission to one of political deliverance from Roman oppression (cf. John 6:15). Jesus wanted to avoid, as much as possible, any premature misunderstanding about who he was and what he was doing. However, at the end of his ministry, he did not deny such a title when the high priest asked him (22:66-71).
142tn Or “Messiah”; both “Christ” (Greek) and “Messiah” (Hebrew and Aramaic) mean “one who has been anointed.”
sn Note how Luke associates Son of God with Messiah (Christ) in this context, a regal connection with OT roots (Ps 2:7). Also, see the note on Christ in 2:11.
Source.

Jodi, you are disagreeing with more than 25 scholars who had access to over 60,932 translator’s notes. This is only one source that disagrees with you.

You show us no sources for your heretical belief except a handful of scriptures that says man has an evil heart and nature called the “old man”, and you want us to believe you have some exclusive revelation that this “old man” is satan and demons, though you don't have a single scripture that links mans “old man” or “evil nature” as being “daimonia”. In fact you would have listeners believe that man possesses himself and is cast out of himself his “old man”, and that Yeshua was going around telling these unclean adversaries that knew he was the Son of God to shut up and to leave themselves, which is pure foolishness.

The Greek for Luke 4:41 is…
exhrceto de kai daimonia apo pollwn krazonta kai legonta oti su ei o Xristov o uiov tou yeou kai epitimwn ouk eia auta lalein oti hdeisan ton Xriston auton einai

“Daimonia”; which is interpreted as “devils” means;
1) the divine power, deity, divinity
2) a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men
3) evil spirits or the messengers and ministers of the devil

Since we know that these unclean spirits are not God’s divine power or a deity, then the translators rightfully interpret the word as devils or evil spirits. This seems to be your hang-up and where you stop with your interpretation rather than continuing with the context of the verse you claim that these unclean spirits or demons are mans “old nature” or “old man”. Unfortunately for you this verse as well as many others do not allow for that interpretation. Here is why.

“exhrceto” or “Exerchomai” is interpreted “came” means;
1) to go or come forth of
a) with mention of the place out of which one goes, or the point from which he departs
1) of those who leave a place of their own accord
2) of those who are expelled or cast out
2) metaph.
a) to go out of an assembly, i.e. forsake it

Exerchomai  is a verb in the Middle or Passive Deponent voice. The middle or passive deponent forms in almost all cases are translated as being in the active voice. The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.

This is the same point that LU brought up that you never answered concerning the “legion” that Yeshua cast out into the swine. Here is what she said again.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,11:29)

It is the Greek active voice that the verbs were written in that tells us that the spirits did the coming out and the entering into the pigs.  These actions didn't happen to the spirits, they (the spirits) did the actions.  As I stated in my previous post, they did these actions in response to the Lord's direction, no question about that.  Do you understand the concept of the active and passive voice in Greek?

Sicknesses and illnesses and insanity do not act on their own but are in fact the results of the evil spirits actions.

So far we see these evil spirits go from one place to another and they are the ones doing the action. But unless you twist it to say that Yeshua is telling the “demons” or men to just depart from his presence and go somewhere else, (which is not at all what it means), then it means that they came out of the men.

But the proof is in the Greek word “apo” which is interpreted “out from” and means;
1) of separation
a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, …
b) of separation of a part from the whole
1) where of a whole some part is taken
c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1) physical, of distance of place
2) temporal, of distance of time

“Apo” is a preposition which is a function word that typically combines with a noun phrase to form a phrase which usually expresses a modification or predication. Source In this case the noun is the demons that combined with the prepositional phrase “came out from” does the action.

There is no possible way Luke 4:41 or Matt 5:13 and others using these Greek terms can mean that these evil spirits, devils, are men or mans old nature, or sicknesses or diseases, which does the action and leaves the man. In fact the scriptures you incite shows that even believers still have the “old man” or “flesh nature” to deal with. That will not leave us until we are perfected. That is not what was being cast out of men.

You are apposing the word of God by interpreting these scriptures the way you do and in fact I believe you are fulfilling the scripture that says…

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16

The evil spirits or devils “knew” who Yeshua was as the Son of God.

Robertson's Word Pictures (NT) states…
“Suffered them not to speak (ouk eia auta lalein). Imperfect third singular active of eaw, very old and common verb with syllabic augment ei. The tense accents the continued refusal of Jesus to receive testimony to his person and work from demons. Cf. Matthew 8:4 to the lepers. Because they knew (oti hdeisan). Causal, not declarative, oti. Past perfect of the second perfect oida.
That he was the Christ (ton Xriston auton einai). Infinitive in indirect assertion with the accusative of general reference. Ton Xriston = the Anointed, the Messiah.” Source

From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
dem'-mon, de-mo'-ni-ak, de-mon-ol'-o-ji (daimonion, earlier form daimon = pneuma akatharton, poneron, “demon,” “unclean or evil spirit,” incorrectly rendered “devil” in the King James Version):
I. Definition.
The word daimon or daimonion seems originally to have had two closely related meanings; a deity, and a spirit, superhuman but not supernatural. In the former sense the term occurs in the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalms 106:37; Acts 17:18. The second of these meanings, which involves a general reference to vaguely conceived personal beings akin to men and yet belonging to the unseen realm, leads to the application of the term to the peculiar and restricted class of beings designated “demons” in the New Testament. Source

In summary I have some questions for you and hope you will answer them and not just post more of the same.

1. How do you explain that the Greek shows the evil spirits doing the action as LU has pointed out.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2008,11:29)

It is the Greek active voice that the verbs were written in that tells us that the spirits did the coming out and the entering into the pigs.  These actions didn't happen to the spirits, they (the spirits) did the actions.  As I stated in my previous post, they did these actions in response to the Lord's direction, no question about that.  Do you understand the concept of the active and passive voice in Greek?

2. When Yeshua was tempted by satan, was it his unclean spirit or old man or old nature in him that he was having a conversation with? Did he lead himself to the pinnacle and quote to himself the scriptures? Was he telling his old nature that it was to worship God and him only shall he serve? Was the evil spirit cast out of him or was he healed?

3. Can you show me “one” scripture in Paul’s, Peter or John’s writings that says the old man or old nature of man or the flesh of man is the “Daimonia”?

4. Can you give us some credible references for your belief that evil spirits or demons are illnesses or sicknesses or madness?

I have others, but that will suffice for now.

Jodi. We do not need a translation of the translations. The scriptures generally are to be taken literally as they are without special pleading and inference. That is how most false doctrines are started. The experts of Greek and Hebrew have already done the translating. Not meaning that we cannot compare scripture with scriptures and check out the Greek and Hebrew meanings, but it is not for us to change the translations, unless you want to rewrite the scriptures.

Blessings WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……Jodi is not the only one who did not believe in devils and demons, Sir Isaac Newton also did and He could speak and write Hebrew, Greek, and Latin Fluently and is considered one of the most intelligent men who ever lived and spent most of His life analyzing scriptures and he came to the conclusion there is no devil or demons that jump in and out of bodies also. The people of those days considered anyone with mental illness as demon possessed they simply did not know the difference, Jesus dealt with the people on their level of understanding. Modern science and medicine has proved multiple disorders are not demon possessed people . But are people suffering from a forms of mental disorder. Modern religion is stuck in first century understanding and thats why they still believe in demons and devils that jump in and out of people. But Jesus said that the Pharisees were devils and Peter was a Satan. Do you also believe that and if not how do you explain it then?

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