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Hi Andrew.
The veracity of scripture is a precious rock.
I hate the careless abuse of it by those who rely on their opinions
Andrew,
I do address single points as I find it easier.
You said.
In Jn8:58 when he says before Abraham was I was or am,he’s plainly claiming to be greater than Abraham and giving himself a divine status whether or not one thinks he’s calling himself God-the I AM of Exodus.
God doe tell Moses to call him “I am” when he speaks with the Israelites but it is no more his name than “the Ancient of Days” is. His name is Jehovah though Abraham knew him by the name “El”. I perceive it as him declaring he is the only God. It has nothing to do with John 8:58.
Kerwin,that’s fine that you don’t see it as having anything to do with Exodus,I really don’t either,but it very much does speak to Jesus nature in Jn 8:58.If he’s not calling himself Jehovah he’s at least claiming a preexistence and greater status than Abraham for which the Jews wanted to stone him.And St.Jn 12 speaks to that even more as the prophet Isaiah saw Jesus,the theophany/appearance of God.It also follows with other verses from Paul where he equates verses from the OT about Jehovah to Jesus.And yes I realize the synoptic verses which say things contrary.
I have not been a confused Christian for many years for no reason.I have studied diligently and let God damn me if that’s not so.I fear not anymore,but choose love to rule now. I am in no ways perfect but that’s my hope.
Hi Andrew,
Yes you do spout the popular theology of the day.
But the real problem is you do not recognise when the Spirit speaks through Jesus.
He did mention this a few times
Jn 13.49
Jn 14.10
Jn 14.24
etc.
But these words remain indigestible to the theologians developing their theories
Hi Andrew,
If you do not hear the voice of the Spirit in the man Jesus how did you get on when you heard the prophets?
AndrewAD,
John 8:58 mixes a present tense with a past tense in a pattern that doesn’t sound like English.
In one translation it is “I am before Abraham was”
I been looking and I can find no example in English where a statement like that is revealed to be good English.
AndrewAD,
Maybe someone here knows a variation that uses good English or can why the verse is good English like it is written.
Hi Andrew,
Acts 14.11
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices saying in the language of Lycaonia
The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men.”
Unspiritual men are still doing the same.
None hear what God says but they follow the vanity of their minds
Hi Andrew,
The whole bible is the story of God working by His Spirit among men.
Men are privileged to be used as vessels for that work and get to share in the rewards if we hang in there.
Jesus Christ showed the way and advised us to follow him.
Hi Andrew,
To build a trinity god from scripture requires appalling ignorance of the teaching of Jesus Christ and the prophets and apostles.
One way to translate the words of John 8:58i nto good English is the following.
I have been since before Abraham was made.
another way is
I have been the him since before Abraham was made.
I favor the second idea as it is about identity and it goes with Jesus’ last words.
Many favor the first one because it is about existence and it agrees with the accusation the Jews just breathed previously.
Andrew…….it all depends on how you apply the “I WAS”, SOME SAY IT MEANS HE WAS EXISTING BEFORE ABRAHAM AS A SENTINAL BEING , BUT IT COULD JUST AS EASLY MEAN, HE WAS IN SCRIPTURES MENTIONED BEFORE HIM. But when you concider the over context of the dialogs there, you can see, that it all was addressing “IMPORTANCE” the JEWS WERE USING ABRAHAM AS THEIR FATHER WHICH GAVE THEM IMPORTANCE IN THAT RELATIONSHIP TO GOD, AND JESUS WAS JUST SAYING HE WAS MORE IMPORTANT THEN ABRAHAM WAS TO THEM, HE NEEDED TO BE PLACED AHEAD OF ABRAHAM IN IMPORTANCE in relating to GOD. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
Good post.
We might ask ourselves, who was Jesus referring to when he said, “I am” in John 8:58?
John 8:40 gives us a plain answer. He is a man who is telling the truth. Not a God who is telling the truth.
Of whom did he hear this truth? Himself? No, the man, not God, who heard the truth heard it from God, not himself.
<span class=”verse_num”>40 </span>But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
In John 8:24 & John 8:28 the translators of the AV of the KJV chose to translate the same words they translated as “I am” in John 8:58. I am convinced they made that choice, despite the bad English that was the result, because of their doctrine about the meaning of God’s words in Exodus. The bad English paints them as being non-credible as witnesses to the truth.
Jesus them during this whole passage is not to prove he preexist his own genesis but rather to prove that he is the Christ and therefore those things that apply to the Christ apply to him. His unbelieving Jewish listeners were looking for lies in his speech whether they existed or not. They were looking for flaws because they did not want to come into the light. Their testimony is not credible. I also do not believe that they derailed Jesus from his theme.
This is why I am reasonably sure that Jesus was expressing the thoughts of the words “I have been the one since before Abraham was made”. That does not mean he existed before his generation but rather that God appointed him to be the Messiah before Abraham was both created by God and made the father of many nations.
The only reason I placed the word “since” is that without it I do not see a way to form good English out of what is given.
I am being technical as even with bad English many readers seem to understand the meanings of the sentence.
Hi AndrewAD
you wrote:
Yes when Jesus answered”I am” in response to his own question of “whom do you seek?” in Jn18:5,6 it was affirmative of Jesus the Nazarene.But why should they draw back and fall to the ground over that? unless Jesus was a divine being, which is the main point of St.John’s gospel that Jesus is the Son of God.
If that is your logic then that leads to the even more important question of why no one fell to the ground in Jn 8:58
When applying logic you should check out the whole circuit, Keep in mind you are talking about a scenario where not only did people not react with fainting and falling but instead according to the scriptures reacted with beatings followed by a crucifixion so why you put so much emphasis on a person or two falling to the ground is amazing because it did not prevent anything at all, he still got arrested.bodhitarta, I was placing no special emphasis on people falling down,but asked the question why should or would they fall down over him claiming I am Jesus the Nazarene in John’s gospel? these people didn’t even believe in him so what is the reason they fell down? The story says they did,so why do you think they fell down?
That has nothing to do with the fact that he was later arrested,beaten and crucified does it? Jesus claims in John’s gospel that no man takes his life from him but he lays it down of himself.Isn’t that right?
AndrewAD,
I am not sure they did not believe in him as they were men doing their job. Many, when put in the position of doing evil or loosing their job will do evil.
Luke 20:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
The people given them the orders denied Jesus was a prophet but those lower down did not.
John makes the point that many people believed but feared the people more as can be seen in John :12-13.
Given such secret believers exist it is reasonable to think that even some of those that came to seize him were such. Among the reasons for fainting is fear or emotional trauma which a person that believes may well feel when confronting a prophet of God.
The soldiers that confronted Elijah were burned up until a third more humble and believing group came to arrest him instead. Knowing this history those men had reason to fear.
There is evidence Judas believed but his belief was not spiritual in nature. He repentance after the fact but his repentance was worldly and so led him to commit suicide. Those that bribed him were more heartless than he was and they were the leaders of the people.
Wow Kerwin,are you grasping at silly straws here? So those who fell down were “secret believers”maybe? If they feared men more than God then certainly they are not believers or worthy of Christ.He who denies me before men I will deny before the Father-didn’t Jesus say that? But maybe he really didn’t mean that too strictly since even Peter denied him yet became the Rock on which the church is founded.
So maybe those who fell down were all believers and Jesus healed the ear of that timid believer who got his ear chopped off? That actually makes me feel much better about myself and maybe now I can “harmonize”all the scriptures to my personal taste.Jesus is restoring my hearing right now even.Praise God!
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