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Kathi, can you give me just ONE scriptural reason why Jesus absolutely CAN’T be the first creation of his and our God, Jehovah?
Here is ONE scriptural reason:
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Kathi: My answer: To provide a real life example of something that demonstrates how through the asexual reproduction process of binary fission, the simplest parent/offspring relationship which, according to a first and only generation, demonstrates that the age of the substance in both is identical in age and type. No one can say that the son can not possibly be as old as his father with that example.
The common argument that the son of God can’t be as old as his Father because a father is always older that his son, is null and void from that one real life example. You can’t say that the example doesn’t demonstrate a parent/offspring example. It isn’t a human example but God is not human so that doesn’t matter.
As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father. That CELL did indeed exist before the second CELL existed. So yes, the “Father Cell” is, and will always be, older than the “Son Cell”. And yes, the “Father Cell” brought forth/created/produced/begot” the Son Cell which previously hadn’t existed.
Secondly, lose the “parent/offspring” terminology. For your analogy to be considered valid, we must have a FATHER and a SON – because that is the relationship both Jesus and his God have described.
Thirdly, cells don’t begin with a fixed amount of “substance” that then gets cut in half when they separate – leaving each cell with only half of the substance the original one started with. More substance is always being generated, and when enough NEW substance is produced, the cell can divide, making a new cell out of that new substance. So not even the substance of the original cell and the new cell is the same age.
Hi Berean,
YOU:Jesus is the divine Son of God who was made flesh as the beloved John says.
He was with God in the beginning, and all things were made by Him and all
things remain in Him.
ME: Paul speaks against your word Berean. Can you please specifically respond to these passages directly?
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures, Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
What did the prophet David say concerning God’s Son,
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore. 15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Berean, please address the fact that in Luke 1 the child IS the son of David, and that he WILL BE called the Son of the Highest, and that the Lord God will give him his father David’s throne.
I’d like to see how you can explain this fitting into your belief as these words of God are opposite of what you say.
Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Berean, do you realize that this was our Lord God’s word before the world began?
When you are told that all things were made by reason of and for him, the him is this man that our Lord God promised He would be a Father to and give him an eternal throne, where he would sit upon it in the flesh being of the root and offspring of David.
You take passages and CHANGE the IMAGE of our CHRIST as you deny a simple God given truth and don’t apply it directly to where it is purposed to be applied to.
Our Heavenly Father wanted us to KNOW that the man who SHED his blood becoming our source for eternal salvation, is he that God made all things by reason of and for, not that he pre-existed and created all things for himself.
This should be totally obvious to you that this is TRUTH, because the LORD who says that He created all things ALONE by Himself, speaks of this man telling us that he is FIRST a Son of a Man and THEN our Heavenly Father would anoint him and THEN SEND him out into the world to die on the cross and justify people from all things.
To say that Yehovah had to SEND his divine Son to become a human in order to save the world is complete falsehood if ever I heard one.
Yehovah had to call a man to righteousness, rest His Spirit upon him in full measure and then SEND this man out into the world where Yehovah would direct all his ways so that he could become PERFECTED learning OBEDIENCE as Yehovah was with him teaching him.
Without this Spirit upon the man Jesus, Jesus could do nothing of himself.
God did not choose to send down a Son to be a man. God elected a man from among his brethren, anointed him and sent him out into the world. He was the only mortal man to have been begotten by God’s Spirit without measure, the only mortal man to have God direct ALL of his ways, God’s WORD spoken by the prophets fulfilled in his flesh, where his FLESH became unto us the BREAD FROM GOD.
Mike,
You said: As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.
That would be impossible for the original cell to only represent the father since the meaning of father requires the existence of an offspring. The original cell would either represent the father AND the son or the potential father and son (as I’ve already pointed out to you).
Mike: Kathi, can you give me just ONE scriptural reason why Jesus absolutely CAN’T be the first creation of his and our God, Jehovah?
Kathi: Here is ONE scriptural reason:
John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Okay, let’s compare…
Acts 4:24
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.
Does this mean that Jehovah created Himself? He is, after all, a part of the “everything” in the heavens, right? Or could the word “everything” be sensibly understood as “everything excluding the subject”? For example…
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
See what I mean? Paul clearly said “everything” – but then explained that by “everything”, he obviously didn’t mean EVERY SINGLE THING. What if Paul didn’t add that disclaimer? Would sensible people still be able to figure out that “everything” obviously didn’t include God Himself – who was the one who put that “everything” under Jesus in the first place? I’d surely hope so. And I’d certainly hope that nobody with a personal agenda would try to twist Paul’s use of the word “everything” into somehow teaching that Jesus was equal to his God – who put the “everything” under his feet.
So then back to John 1:3… Could a sensible person assume that John’s use of “all things” and “nothing” exclude the subject, Jesus… AND his own God, Jehovah? Could it mean that once Jehovah and Jesus both existed, “all [OTHER] things” came into existence through him, and “no [OTHER] thing” came into existence without him?
BROTHERS AND SISTERS
LET US GO NO FURTHER THAN WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS
FORMALLY DECLARE.
JESUS IS OUR JUSTICE
Jeremiah 33
…15In those days and at that time will I bring forth the seed of righteousness to David; and he shall execute justice and equity in the land. 16 In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name of it: The Lord our righteousness. 17 For thus says the Lord, David shall never lack a successor, sitting on the throne of the house of Israel….And this is what we’ll call it: The Lord our righteousness. KJB.VERSION
Hebrew Transliterated (Jeremiah)
33:16 BYMYM HHM ThVSh’y YHVDH VYUrVShLM ThShKVN LBTCh VZH ‘aShUr-YQUr’a-LH YHVH TShDQNV.YHVH TShDQNV
American Standard Version
33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.Darby’s English Translation
33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety. And this is the name wherewith she shall be called: Jehovah our Righteousness.Noah Webster Bible
33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety: and this is the name by which she shall be called, JEHOVAH our righteousness.World English Bible
33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.GOD BLESS
Mike,
You said: Does this mean that Jehovah created Himself? He is, after all, a part of the “everything” in the heavens, right? Or could the word “everything” be sensibly understood as “everything excluding the subject”?
I understand what you the word “other” to be added but it isn’t.
Consider for the moment that both the Father and the Son are indeed eternal, and therefore both would be YHWH which implies always existing, then there are two persons as YHWH.
Mike: As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario, the original cell represents the Father.
Kathi: That would be impossible for the original cell to only represent the father since the meaning of father requires the existence of an offspring. The original cell would either represent the father AND the son or the potential father and son (as I’ve already pointed out to you).
Okay, let me rephrase it… As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario where there are now TWO cells, the original cell represents the Father…
Is that better for you? Sorry, I assumed that the phrase “original cell” implied that there were more than one cell. Otherwise I’d just say “the cell”. 😉
After all, people don’t speak of the “original Taj Mahal”, do they?
Mike,
If neither of the two persons were considered “made” then it would be wrong to add the word “other.” Since the word “other” is not in the text, that demonstrates that neither person was made. Let it be. Enjoy the eternalness of the Father and the Son. That answers soooooo many questions.
Please take the quiz that I put up recently here and tell me your answers.
Mike,
You said:
Okay, let me rephrase it… As I’ve already pointed out, in your scenario where there are now TWO cells, the original cell represents the Father…
Not quite…the original cell represents the father and son.
this is better:
the original cell either represents the potential father and son
or the father and son before the begetting
Berean: BROTHERS AND SISTERS
LET US GO NO FURTHER THAN WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS
FORMALLY DECLARE.
JESUS IS OUR JUSTICE
Jeremiah 33
…15In those days and at that time will I bring forth the seed of righteousness to David; and he shall execute justice and equity in the land. 16 In those days Judah shall be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name of it: The Lord our righteousness. 17 For thus says the Lord, David shall never lack a successor, sitting on the throne of the house of Israel….And this is what we’ll call it: The Lord our righteousness. KJB.VERSION
Hebrew Transliterated (Jeremiah)
33:16 BYMYM HHM ThVSh’y YHVDH VYUrVShLM ThShKVN LBTCh VZH ‘aShUr-YQUr’a-LH YHVH TShDQNV.YHVH TShDQNV
Berean, what does that same phrase mean in Jeremiah 33:16 – where it refers to Jerusalem? Is Jerusalem also “Jehovah Our Righteousness”? Shall we worship Jerusalem as our God and Creator now? Or do those Hebrew words mean “Jehovah IS our righteousness” – much like Emmanuel means “God IS with us”?
Hopefully you can see how the “Jesus is God” crowd pick and choose difficult Hebrew and Greek phrases, and insist that they must mean Jesus is God when they clearly don’t have to mean any such thing.
Kathi: Mike,
If neither of the two persons were considered “made” then it would be wrong to add the word “other.” Since the word “other” is not in the text, that demonstrates that neither person was made.
Great. So now we just go back to those scriptures I posted earlier that clearly say Jesus was made, and it becomes clear that all OTHER things were made through Jesus… after his and our God made him as the first of His works. After all, even as your mental gymnastics exercise about two cells makes clear… the original cell (AND it’s original substance) was alive and well BEFORE the latter cell (and it’s copied substance) was brought forth into existence BY the original cell.
As for John 1:3, unless the Word himself and the Word’s God were two of the “all things” that were made through the Word, then “other” is clearly intended – just as it was intended in 1 Cor 15:27. The only difference in the two is that John didn’t add the obvious disclaimer spelling this out, while Paul did.
Berean: Mike
It refers to Jesus and not to Jerusalem
Jesus is our justice
And nothing else.
May God guide you.It refers to Jesus in Jeremiah 33:16? Show me.
In the meantime, which god are you asking to guide me? There are, after all, myriads of myriads of them. Are you requesting guidance for me from the Most High God of gods who created the heavens, the earth, the sea and everything in them – also known as my Heavenly Father? Or from His holy servant Jesus, also known as my brother and joint heir of God with me?
Hi Mike,
Thanks for your reply!
So how do you address the fact that Jesus sits on an eternal throne according to the FLESH, where David foresaw that his flesh would not see decay?
We are told that he was raised from the dead in glory, power, made incorruptible. He appeared to many and said he was not a spirit but of flesh and bones. The people who witnessed him ascend were told that same Jesus would descend.
He is a son of a HUMAN returning. He is called the last Adam/HUMAN who is the root and offspring, the fruit of David’s loins.
Matthew 1 tells us the GENESIS of Jesus is of Abraham and David and that he is of the genes of Abraham and David through their sons that lead up to Joseph.
With God all things are possible, as God can create humans making them male and female, and He can take a barren woman and make her womb fruitful, He can most certainly provide Mary’s egg with the needed chromosomes equating to Joseph’s sperm.
The virgin birth according to Isaiah 7 has NOTHING to do with God sending down a spirit son to be a man, it has nothing to do with God creating a one of a kind being, it has EVERYTHING to do with a SIGN so that the house of David would know God fulfills His promise, that of a son of David, who God would be a Father to, God would give that son the throne of his father David where he would rule over the house of Jacob forever.
I will reply to John 17 in my next post.
Mike,
you said: So now we just go back to those scriptures I posted earlier that clearly say Jesus was made
But none of them say that Jesus was made, sorry.
Hi Mike,
YOU: Or from His holy servant Jesus,
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time:
Sit on my right hand,
until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
In the above Mike
WHO SERVES WHO?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Hi Mike,
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast SENT. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
The work that God gave Jesus to do was upon the Spirit resting upon him, an anointing, and from there is when Jesus was SENT, sent to preach the gospel of God, to heal, to deliver captives from darkness… (Isaiah 11, 42, 61, God’s word fulfilled in the flesh of Jesus) This anointed Jesus is he who God sent, and being the only mortal man to have received of the fullness of God’s Spirit without measure, he was God’s only begotten Son that had been filled with grace and truth.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
with -para, from, of
glorify though me (the Son of Man) with thine own self with the glory which I (the Son of Man) had of thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
Mike it doesn’t make sense to me at all that God needed to send down an only begotten son to be a man, for then to have that man be able to do nothing of himself.
Scripture does not tell me that Jesus received the Spirit because he was already a Son of God having been sent to earth. Scripture tells me that Jesus received the Spirit, an anointing and was sent, as it was a promise from God to be fulfilled in the son of Jesse. This word of God made true in the flesh of Jesus spoken by the prophet Isaiah, I believe was indeed God’s word before the world began.
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