JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[GeneBalthrop]

TO ALL……JESUS WAS NEVER THE LOGOS, IT WAS GOD THE FATHER THAT WAS AND IS THE LOGOS, IT WAS BY THE ANOINTING SPIRIT OF GOD THE FATHER JESUS RECIEVED AT THE JORDAN RIVER, THAT WAS AND IS THE LOGOS OF GOD, IT WAS GOD AND IS GOD THE FATHER AND HE WAS AND IS “IN” JESUS , BY HIS ANOINTING SPIRIT. GOD IS SPIRIT AND CAN BE IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL.

Anyone who denies that God the father came to be “in” Jesus, at His baptizm, by his anointing spirit, has denied the SON and also GOD THE FATHER. Because they have denied that the christo’s “CAME TO BE IN”, HUMAN FLESH, they are therefore, as JOHN SAID, ANTI-CHRISTO’S.

peace and love to you all and yours………..gene

• This reply was modified 7 years, 9 months ago by Admin.

[Proclaimer]

is flawed as it is in itself a doctrinal belief.

Yes, being kind to one another should be a doctrinal belief for example and so should be the command to lave one another. But these should primarily be actions.

I mean, it is one thing to believe that we should be kind, but quite another to actually be kind.

The latter being way more important as I am sure you will agree.

Actions speak louder than words as the saying goes.

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

[Proclaimer]

Hi T8,

1) Yes (ref. Isaiah 44:24)

2) No, God created Adam and Eve.
“And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind”
My parents created me, my Grand parents did NOT created me through my parents, and neither did God.

3) Yes, see point #2.

If you are going to try to force your belief to sound correct, you are
going to have to ask two and three part questions like MikeBoll use to ask.
But as I pointed out in the HotSeat rules thread, that this practice is most unfair. …(Link)

Thanks for answering these questions clearly.

I see contradictions in your answers though.

You say that God created ALL things alone.

But then you basically say that you were not created, but clearly you are a created being and you are part of ALL things surely.

If you were not created, then how did you come to exist? If you are not part of all that exists, then how is it that you exist.

And no, I do not think I am being unfair. This is a fair and logical direction to understand what you exactly believe. Nothing disingenuous about it. It is a clear and honest line of enquiry.

[942767]

Hi:

I posted the following scripture from the NASB because in reading it here it made more sense than how it read in the KJV.  In these verses of scripture, it appears that they are saying that all things are made for God.

Hebrews 2:

9 But we do see Him who was made [j]for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the [k]author of their salvation through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are [l]sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying,

But we do know the the new creature is definitely being made through Jesus Christ, and we know that no man can come to the Father but by him.

Hebrews 3:

3 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2 [a]He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Love in Christ,
Marty
 

 

[Proclaimer]

EdJ, I think you are over-reacting.

Now instead of God creating all things by himself and alone through Jesus (death on a cross),

There is nothing wrong with me trying to find out how you get over the contradiction that shows itself to me in your argument. I need to address the elephant in the room.

You are a created being, and God created all things alone. How do you reconcile that. Is that explained by the sentence I have quoted?

If so, that is not written anywhere that I know of. Could you kindly point out where and I will consider it seriously.

My view is that God created all things, even you, but that he does it through agents. That does not mean that he didn’t create because the agent is not the creator.

Likewise God is love and love is of God. All love comes from God but that does not mean that I cannot love my children. But it means that if there was no God, I could not love my children. Of course I agree that there would also be nothing if there was no God, but that is besides the point.

 

[942767]

But does that make him the Logos? No,I don’t understand it that way, the Logos pertains to him, most definitely, but it is not him as some pre-existent sentient person.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

What was with God in the beginning?

WITH God + BECAME flesh = Jesus Christ

 

[942767]

What was with God in the beginning?

WITH God + BECAME flesh = Jesus Christ

John 1 tells us that when God began to create he had a plan and all things were made by the last Adam who is “the express image of God’s person”. What God had spoken from Genesis 1 and throughout the OT pertaining to the coming of Christ became a reality when Jesus was born into this world.

Galatians 4:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

[Proclaimer]

I appreciate you explaining your view here.

I can see at least one assumptions and so will call that out.

John 1 tells us that when God began to create he had a plan and all things were made by the last Adam who is “the express image of God’s person”.

It doesn’t actually say anywhere that all things were made through the Second Adam from what I know. It does say the Word and the Son of God, thus I believe that instead. While Jesus is of course the son of God and the second Adam, I also believe he is the Word of God. Not talking about God’s own attribute, but as a being who is most like God who possesses the nature and qualities of this invisible God in full. This Jesus is full of truth, grace, life, and yes even logos. He is after all called THE Truth, THE Life, THE Logos. The second Adam is more of a description that fulfills what the first Adam failed to do, but even more than that too. God did not create all things through the first Adam, and I do not see that he also did it through the Second Adam in the sense of what that actually means. Of course the one who is the Second Adam, namely Jesus is certainly the one by whom God made all things through.

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

While this is not an assumption and is clear scripture, of course I agree with it. But I am not necessarily on board with why you quote it.

God is not without knowledge. Before the cosmos he knew he was going to create the Universe or the heavens and earth. He also knew each one of us that he created and/or begat. He obviously knew that these living beings would need free will in order to be truly free agents, rather than a mere extension of God himself.

But free will comes at a cost. That is, they could choose NOT God. Knowing this, God foreordained before the cosmos that the one by whom he created all things through would be the one by whom all things would be redeemed through if or when it came to that. It makes sense that if God made all through him, then he has the capacity to redeem all through him too. We know God is smart. He had this plan already worked out before anything even happened. He is not blind to see the possible consequences of his own creation and risks in giving beings free will. Satan can oppose him all he likes, but God has already got a plan for every eventuality and all worked out before he made the cosmos.

I suppose you could say it was just a matter of time when one of God’s creatures rebelled. But perhaps it was possible that it could also never happened too. Regardless, God knew in the least that this gift of choice also came with risks. He had a plan to manage that risk. That plan is now in action. This is the worse case scenario playing out, but for those that love God, he has turned this into a massive opportunity by allowing us to be tested and rewarded as a result. This is our chance to build godly character, patience, and perseverance. Even Jesus learned about obedience. Of course if we can be obedient and love in this age, then all the more with the perfect ages to follow.

[kerwin]

T8,

It doesn’t actually say anywhere that all things were made through the Second Adam anywhere. It does say the Word and the Son of God, thus I believe that instead.

You are thinking more like than a First Century Jedeo-Christian, whether Gentile or Jew by inheritance. All I know is that Philo of Alexandria is known to call the logos the Son of God.
Philo’s logos

d. First-born Son of God

The Logos has an origin, but as God’s thought it also has eternal generation. It exists as such before everything else all of which are secondary products of God’s thought and therefore it is called the “first-born.” The Logos is thus more than a quality, power, or characteristic of God; it is an entity eternally generated as an extension, to which Philo ascribes many names and functions. The Logos is the first-begotten Son of the Uncreated Father: “For the Father of the universe has caused him to spring up as the eldest son, whom, in another passage, he [Moses] calls the first-born; and he who is thus born, imitating the ways of his father, has formed such and such species, looking to his archetypal patterns” (Conf. 63).

By your own testimony both the logos by which all things are created and title the Son of God could be two names for the same thing. A thing that everyone agrees that God used to create all things that have been created.

Nick claims essentially the same thing though he credits the Spirit instead but the Spirit is so entwined with the Word that it is written that the sword of the Spirit is the word of God.

You do not have to place someone at creation that the OT does not speak of since Genesis testifies God created all that has been created by his word.

[Ed J]

But as I pointed out in the HotSeat rules thread, that this practice is most unfair. …(Link)

Thanks for answering these questions clearly.

I see contradictions in your answers though.

You say that God created ALL things alone.

[b]But then you basically say that you were not created[/b], but clearly you are a created being and you are part of ALL things surely.

If you were not created, then how did you come to exist? If you are not part of all that exists, then how is it that you exist.

And no, I do not think I am being unfair. This is a fair and logical direction to understand what you exactly believe. Nothing disingenuous about it. It is a clear and honest line of enquiry.

Hi T8,

Not a problem. And I will attempt to explain why there is no contradiction.

God created Adam and Eve with the ability to produce after their kind.
Therefore Seth was created by Adam and Eve rather than God.

God indeed created all things alone and by himself,
and man and women are among those things.
So there is no contradiction.

[b]Note: I did not say that I wasn’t created.[/b]
What I said was: “I was created by my parents, not God.”

_______________
God bless
Ed J

[Ed J]

(1)There is nothing wrong with me trying to find out how you get over the contradiction that shows itself to me in your argument. I need to address the elephant in the room.

(2)You are a created being, and God created all things alone. How do you reconcile that. Is that explained by the sentence I have quoted?

(3)If so, that is not written anywhere that I know of. Could you kindly point out where and I will consider it seriously.

(4)My view is that God created all things, even you, but that he does it through agents. That does not mean that he didn’t create because the agent is not the creator.

(5)Likewise God is love and love is of God. All love comes from God but that does not mean that I cannot love my children. But it means that if there was no God, I could not love my children. Of course I agree that there would also be nothing if there was no God, but that is besides the point.

Hi T8,

1) I agree and that’s what I was attempting to explain in my last post.
2) I have explained this point in my last post.
3) I posted three verses together to illustrate the fit of God of creating all things through Jesus’D.B.R. [color=white]…[/color][b][size=15]([url=heavennet.net/forums/topic/is-jesus-the-logos/#post-809780]Link[/url])[/size][/b]
4) I think you’re an agent (–he he he)
5) Rant

_______________
God bless
Ed J

[Ed J]

What was with God in the beginning?

WITH God + BECAME flesh = Jesus Christ

Hi T8,

That certainly is a fit, but not the only fit.
God’s “HolySoirit” was also with God in the beginning.
WITH God + was made flesh at Jordan (John 1:14) = “HolySpirit”

And please don’t forget the perfect fit of John 1:1:
and the “HolySpirit” was “GOD”! (ref. Matt 1:18, Luke 1:35 Acts 5:3-4)

“why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HolySpirit”
“thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” (Acts 5:3,4)
= the HolySpirit is God

“she was found with child of the HolySpirit” (Matt 1:18)
“therefore also that holy thing which shall be born
of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35)
= HolySpirit is GOD: The Father of Jesus Christ

Conclusion: “Ho Logos” = Spirit

_______________
God bless
Ed J

[Proclaimer]

You do not have to place someone at creation that the OT does not speak of since Genesis testifies God created all that has been created by his word.

I do not have to do that. It is just a matter of believing these and other scriptures. It’s really that simple.

Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God, that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.…

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

“I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was…”

[Proclaimer]

Note: I did not say that I wasn’t created.
What I said was: “I was created by my parents, not God.”

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So this verse does not apply to you?

[942767]

Hi t8:

I appreciate you explaining your view here.

I can see at least one assumptions and so will call that out.

John 1 tells us that when God began to create he had a plan and all things were made by the last Adam who is “the express image of God’s person”.
It doesn’t actually say anywhere that all things were made through the Second Adam from what I know. It does say the Word and the Son of God, thus I believe that instead.

The definition of the Greek word “Logos” is:

Definition:
of speech
a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea

And the scripture states that all things were created by him, and we know that him is speaking about Jesus.

And 1 Co 15 we have the following scripture:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The following verse of scripture states that God made all things by him, and states that he is the express image of God’s person.

(And so, you may see it as an assumption, but this is supported by these scriptures and others as well).

As for why I quoted the verse that states that he was foreordained, well that is what the scriptures state.

And the following scripture states that “eternal life was with the Father” and was manifest in these last times:

1 John 1:

1 John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

But Ok, now it is your turn to show me where the scriptures state that Jesus pre-existed his birth into this world as a sentient person, and when you do, using the scriptures that I know you will use, please show me how this all works with what the scriptures state relative how Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. This teaching is totally confusing, just as the doctrine of “the trinity”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Hi 94.

Could you edit your comment and Quote my words, so they do not look like yours. It is a hard post to read at present.

Thanks 🙂

[Proclaimer]

In the beginning^[b] was the Word,
    and the Word was with God,
    and the Word was God.
² He was in the beginning with God.
³ All things came to be through him,
    and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be ⁴ through him was life,
    and this life was the light of the human race;
⁵ the light shines in the darkness,
    and the darkness has not overcome it.

Ed J, so you are not part of this because what?

From what I can tell, you came to be, so this must include you right.

So God created all things alone, but through his Word. His Word was the agent. That does not mean that God did not create it all though.

Your way out is to deny that you were created by God, rather it was your parents alone. Face it, your parents did not create you, they were the agency. They do not know how to create a car probably, let alone a living person from nothing.

Your view about you not being created by God does not fit in any way or context into John 1:1.

Are you the exception?

Here is what I think.

God created all things. Here is how he did it. He created or begat the main agency which is the Word. From there other agencies were created or begotten including human parents. God started it all and thus it is all his work. The agencies are merely doing that which God is doing through them.

So God did create you, but through agency. God creating all things does not mean that he personally used his heavenly hammer and fashioned it all out himself, every atom and so forth. He is smarter than that. He made things to reproduce after their own kind. He created it all in a very smart and efficient way.

When a human programmer created a virtual world, do you think they place every pixel by hand? No, they use programs and algorithms  within the basic logic of the world. You see God doing it for example in the water system. Clouds become rain, become rivers, evaporate back into clouds and so the cycle goes again.

[Ed J]

Note: I did not say that I wasn’t created.
What I said was: “I was created by my parents, not God.”

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So this verse does not apply to you?

Hi T8,

Why yes it does, and on two accounts…

1) Through God creating Adam and Eve my parents were able to create me.
and
2) Through Jesus’ death on the cross God created all things alone and by himself.

The reason I believe this is because it fits with no verses to discount it.
Keep in mind that I have developed this view of doctrine from over 40 yrs of study.

_______________
God bless
Ed J

[Proclaimer]

1) Through God creating Adam and Eve my parents were able to create me.

I doubt that your parents created you, that would make them your creator.

However, your statement contradicts your other teaching in God creating all things alone.

God did not create all things alone according to you because your parents created you.

You are arguing with yourself now.

I should leave you to slog this out with yourself. Let me know the winner and I can continue the conversation with the winning EdJ if necessary.

[Author]

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