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You and Pierre BOTH are taking the word “through” to mean ‘by means of’,
as in Jesus Christ helping participate in creation (which would support ‘your claim’),
rather than through’s actual meaning “because of” (as in Jesus being the goal of creation)
which would not support ‘your claim’. (Let me know if you do not understand this distinction)Well translators say it means ‘through’ because that is how it is written. However, they are not always right either. But you say it means ‘because of’. The problem with this interpretation is that it already says this when it says in Colossians 1:15-17:
‘He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.’
- all things have been created through Him
- all things have been created for Him
So while you say that all things are made because of him, I agree, but all things are ALSO created through him. Do you agree that all things were created through him? If not, then you need to explain Colossians 1:15-17 to me. And you also need to explain this:
He is before all things.
In it is life.
We know that Jesus said that he was the ‘life’ and that God made all things through his Word and Son. So you have to admit that the descriptions of Jesus and the Word are the same. And we know that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and that the Antichrist spirit denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Further, we also know that he existed in ‘the form of God’, ‘is before all things’, ‘is back with the Father in the glory he had with the Father before the Cosmos’, and ‘is the first-born of all creation’. There are many more points I could add, but this should be sufficient.
I think some here have a hard road to travel trying to make these and other statements about Jesus and the Word that was with God as not being the same. But to let you know, no one here has given me or others any kind of evidence or even logic to sway us to your way of thinking about the Word of God that was with God as not being the one who later came in the flesh.
All we get is the statement ‘the Logos is God’, but we already know that. Just as truth is in God, so is logos, and life. Yet just as Jesus is the truth and the life, you then deny that he is also the Logos.
We are saying that all these attributes of God are in the Son, and thus he is named by these attributes because they are part of his nature and character.
For example, a person may go by the name ‘Charity’ and that person may be charitable. This in no way removes or takes away from God’s charity. God shares his nature and attributes. Rather than taking it away from him, he magnifies his own nature and character through vessels such as us, but primarily through his son through whom he created all things.
The greatest glory of God we can see is displayed in the face of Christ. He is the image of the invisible God. He is before all things whether in Heaven or Earth. All thrones, dominions, and rulers came through him.
the “image of God”= Jesus does not mean a physical resemblance but a spiritual one for God is spirit and that is also his way of communication with us
but the truth is his wave ,
this is why Jesus says ;JN 14:21 “ He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”
all this commands are of spiritual concern, not physical for the flesh does not help us in the spiritual glorification and worship of God
Edj
yes and also Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made THROUGH him, the world did not recognize him.niv
Jn 1:10 He came into the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him [did not know Him].imP VERSION
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
Phil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest placeALL THOSE SCRIPTURES SHOW YOU ARE WRONG you and kw
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made THROUGH him, the world did not recognize him
Thanks for sharing that.
T8,
How do you separate Jesus the human being from the word that comes out of the mouth of God since they are united and have been since the word of God has been given the character of humanity.
When he speaking of being he is talking about the word part of the unity and not the human part.
When John teaches ” In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind” he is not teaching a newly revealed teach but instead he is repeating what anyone that was familiar with OT should already know.
Jesus actually quoted the equivalent Scripture himself when he told Satan “man does not live on bread alone but on the very word of God”. If you adhere to the word of God then you will have eternal life and so it is a light shining in your darkness. The same is true of the rest of humanity.
t8 and terrarica,
John 1:10 testifies that the world does not know the word that comes our of God’s mouth.
kw
you really don’t expect me to understand what you have written right ?
but that still your interpretation ; not according to the scriptures ;if I listening to that letter I will not understand it as you say ;but just as it is written ,I feel sorry that you have to interpret all the scriptures for your own use ;
Jn 1:10 He(Jesus) was in the world, and though the world was made THROUGH him, the world did not recognize him
your interpretation:John 1:10 testifies that the world does not know the word that comes our of God’s mouth.
no wander you don’t have truth
T8…..GOD THE FATHER WAS IN THE WORLD, AND EVEN THOUGH HE WAS, HOW?, (BECAUSE HE WAS “IN” JESUS) AND EVEN THOUGH THE WORLD WAS MADE BY HIM, THE WORLD DID RECONIZE HIM. IT WAS GOD THE FATHER, NOT JESUS WHO SAID, “destory this temple and in three days I (GOD THE FATHER) shall raise “it” (the body of Jesus) UP.
THAT WAS GOD THE FATHER IN THE WORLD SPEAKING DIRECTLY THROUGH JESUS’ MOUTH, DO YOU RECONIZE HIM?
peace and love to you and yours. ………..gene
Terrarica,
It seems I have to be able to put the clues together in order to understand what the words you wrote mean. The biggest clue is the way you put Jesus in brackets after the pronoun he.
Any pronoun you see in Scripture is an decision made by the translator based of their expert opinion.
What in that passage from John 1 lends you to believe the translator correctly identified the gender as make?
Marty
What I am saying is that even if I were to take the same stance as t8 and say that Jesus is not God I still could not read the context of John 1:1- 17 with an open mind and not believe that John is speaking of Jesus and not just some spoken word. For instance, John 1:11 states…”He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” This was spoken of Jesus unless you can show me otherwise. John is obviously speaking of the world not knowing Jesus or receiving him. John 1:12 states…‘But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” Now unless you can show me where the spoken word of God has a name then the evidence continues to mount that the Word in John 1:1 that John speaks of is Jesus. Then it says…And the Word was made flesh , and dwelt ( the greek means the word was tabernacled) among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” Nowhere is the “spoken word of God said to be “Begotten” of God. More evidence.
Obviously the same “Word” in John 1:1 was made flesh in this verse. IMO one would have to put blinders on to not see this. If John or Jesus was here in the flesh they would rebuke everyone that states that Jesus is not the person spoken of in the first 17 verses of John For crying out loud John says this same “Word” John the Baptist “… bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. Again the context bears out that John is talking about the person of Jesus and the kicker is he says Jesus was before him. We know that he is not speaking of his cousins birth. Like t8 pointed out Jesus said “before Abraham was I Am”. They wanted to stone him because Jesus was proclaiming to exist before Abraham.
Open your eyes and your heart and see the obvious that Jesus is “The Person” spoken of in John 1:1.
WJ
Genesis 1:26 Let ” US ” make man in our image .
God is all knowing, he knew from the beginning of time what he was going to do to get man to understand his sinful nature, believe, and turn from his evil ways. God was speaking of Himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and they ARE one in and of the same. The ” word ” you speak of, comes from the father, it IS the father ( God ) , that’s why they call it the Trinity .
Kw
The HE in that scriptures was referring to Jesus this is why I pointing it out
Now if you Don, t agree with it show me that John was not talking about Jesus
Terricca….. GOD THE FATHER,WAS IN TBE WORLD “IN” JESUS, THAT DOES NOT MAKE JESUS A GOD OF ANY KIND. WHEN JOHN SAID HE (GOD THE FATHER) WAS IN THE WORLD, HE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT JESUS, AND WHEN HE SAID THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM (HE WAS TALKING ABOUT GOD THE FATHER) NOT JESUS, AS TRINITARIANS ASSUME. JOHN WAS BASICLY SAYING, THAT PEOPLE DID NOT RECONIZE GOD THE FATHER BEINGING THE WORLD “IN” JESUS. BUT NONE OF THAT EVER MADE JESUS, A GOD OF ANYKIND. God is a spirit and can indwell anyone he choses to.
As i said it was not Jesus who said, “destory this temple (Jesus’ body) and in tbree days I (God the father), shall raise “IT” up”, THAT WAS GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING FIRST PERSON THROUGH JESUS’ MOUTH.
WHY CAN’T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT? IT IS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT STILL RECONIZE, THAT GOD WAS ACTUALLY “IN” JESUS, JUST AS HE SAID OVER AND OVER HE WAS. CAN YOU SEE THAT IT WAS NOT JESUS THAT SAID THAT, TERRICA, BUT GOD THE FATHER? If you canthen youwill reconize that GOD WAS IN THE WORLD, “IN” JESUS, BUT NONE OF THAT EVER MADE JESUS A GOD OF ANYKIND.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
Terrarica,
Kw
The HE in that scriptures was referring to Jesus this is why I pointing it out
Now if you Don, t agree with it show me that John was not talking about Jesus
I understand you assume that the verse is speaking of Jesus but since Jesus is not even mentioned in verse 1-9 I have no idea what context you base that assumption on.
In short there is no evidence beyond a heretical translators opinion that John 1:10 is talking about a male, much less the male Jesus Christ.
kw
you show your light then ;
Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Col 1:4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the saints—
Col 1:5 the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel
Col 1:6 that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.
Col 1:7 You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf,
Col 1:8 and who also told us of your love in the Spirit.
Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding.
Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord(Jesus) and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his(Jesus) glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully
Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) he loves,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For through him(Jesus) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him(Jesus) and for him.
Col 1:17 He(Jesus) is before all things, and in him(Jesus) all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church; he(Jesus) is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he(Jesus) might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,(jesus)please show me your version ,by changing the names between brackets like i did for this is my understanding so show me yours ?
Gene
Terricca….. GOD THE FATHER,WAS IN TBE WORLD “IN” JESUS, THAT DOES NOT MAKE JESUS A GOD OF ANY KIND. WHEN JOHN SAID HE (GOD THE FATHER) WAS IN THE WORLD, HE WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT JESUS, AND WHEN HE SAID THE WORLD WAS MADE THROUGH HIM (HE WAS TALKING ABOUT GOD THE FATHER) NOT JESUS, AS TRINITARIANS ASSUME. JOHN WAS BASICLY SAYING, THAT PEOPLE DID NOT RECONIZE GOD THE FATHER BEINGING THE WORLD “IN” JESUS. BUT NONE OF THAT EVER MADE JESUS, A GOD OF ANYKIND. God is a spirit and can indwell anyone he choses to.
As i said it was not Jesus who said, “destory this temple (Jesus’ body) and in tbree days I (God the father), shall raise “IT” up”, THAT WAS GOD THE FATHER SPEAKING FIRST PERSON THROUGH JESUS’ MOUTH.
WHY CAN’T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT? IT IS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT STILL RECONIZE, THAT GOD WAS ACTUALLY “IN” JESUS, JUST AS HE SAID OVER AND OVER HE WAS. CAN YOU SEE THAT IT WAS NOT JESUS THAT SAID THAT, TERRICA, BUT GOD THE FATHER? If you canthen youwill reconize that GOD WAS IN THE WORLD, “IN” JESUS, BUT NONE OF THAT EVER MADE JESUS A GOD OF ANYKIND.
peace and love to you and yours. ……………..gene
God does not dwell in people ;but his wisdom and knowledge can ; jesus was send DOWN FROM HEAVEN ;you don’t believe this that’s to bad because that is what it is ;
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