JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2014,19:32)

Jammin,

You claim Jesus is all powerful and yet Scripture states he was appointed. The one who appoints is more powerful than the one that is appointed. Jesus has no power to appoint anyone as Lord of all thing in heaven and on earth.

In fact, Jesus said he can do NOTHING on his own. (John 5:30, 8:28)

June 20, 2014 at 4:33 pm#389393

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2014,08:58)

Quote (kerwin @ June 19 2014,19:32)

Jammin,

In fact, Jesus said he can do NOTHING on his own. (John 5:30, 8:28)

Mike,

There is that to but I am having trouble with jammin addressing my point and he has trouble understanding when I have addressed his point and gone on even when my answer is to agree with him.

June 20, 2014 at 11:54 pm#389431

Participant

JAMMIN WILL NEVER GIVE UP HIS OWN DELUSION ,HE IS STUCK LIKE GLUE ON “THE IMAGE,MOST POWERFUL,AND THE ESSENCE ;

ALL OTHER SCRIPTURES ARE USELESS TO HIM ,SO EITHER YOU JOIN HIM OR DIE BY HIM (IN HIS EYES)

June 21, 2014 at 1:10 am#389439

Participant

I agree.

June 21, 2014 at 2:09 am#389442

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2014,07:10)

I agree.

June 21, 2014 at 2:39 am#389443

Participant

I have to qualify that as never is judgmental. He will not give them up until he chooses to repent.

June 21, 2014 at 2:46 am#389444

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,10:33)

Mike,

There is that to but I am having trouble with jammin addressing my point……………

I'm still wondering when we'll start to discuss the prayer in Acts 4 that I brought up to him weeks ago.

He keeps blowing it off.

June 21, 2014 at 8:44 pm#389521

carmel

Participant

mikeboll64,June wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

I understand them both the same way, Charles.

Mike,

THAT’S WHAT YOUR BOGUS UNDERSTANDING MAKES YOU AWARE OF!

SO YOU DO AS YOU PLEASE!

BUT FOR THE SAKE OF THE TRUTH LET'S SEE WHAT YOU SAID:

FIRST THE WORD MORPHE:

3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence.

WHAT IS THE INNER ESSENCE IN OUR CASE?

GOD THE FATHER

SO MORPHE IT DOESN’T MEAN OUTWARD APPEARANCE ONLY BUT:

READ AGAIN:

THAT ENBODIES ESSENTIAL (INNER)SUBSTANCE

SO THAT THE FORM IS IN COMPLETE HARMONY WITH THE INNER ESSENCE!

THEREFORE ONE FUNCTION, ONE BODY, AND ONE ESSENCE

SO WHAT GOD THE FATHER DID FROM WITHIN JESUS, IT WAS MANIFESTED, AND DONE BOTH BY JESUS SINCE ONLY HE WAS VISIBLE AND THE FATHER THROUGH HIS POWER!

AS JESUS CONFIRMED:

John 5:19 Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, OBVIOUS SINCE THE FATHER WAS WITHIN

but what he seeth the Father doing:

OBVIOUS AGAIN, JESUS SPOKE HIS WORDS,AND OBSERVED WHAT THE FATHER DID THROUGH HIS POWER.

for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner.

OBVIOUS AGAIN, IF BOTH THE FATHER INTERNALLY AND THE SON , EXTERNALLY WERE IN FULL HARMONY! ONE FUNCTION!

20For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth:

OBVIOUS AGAIN, JESUS HIMSELF OBSERVED THE FATHER’S WORK WHICH HE MANIFESTED !

SO UNLESS GOD THE FATHER ABIDED IN JESUS’ SOUL/BODY HE COULD NEVER ESTABLISH HIMSELF ON EARTH THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

SINCE SATAN BELIEVED THAT HE WAS THE GOD OF THE WORLD, THROUGH ADAM SIN!

and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder.

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

June 21, 2014 at 9:03 pm#389523

carmel

Participant

mikeboll64,June wrote:

[/quote]
Mike,

NOW TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING!

Quote

First, Jesus was existing in the form of (“with the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of”) God.

WHICH ACCORDING TO YOU IT MEANS THAT HE WAS NOT ACTUALLY GOD!

SO FAR SO GOOD FOR YOU

THEN YOU SAID:

Quote

Then, Jesus emptied himself and took on the form of (“the OUTWARD APPEARANCE of”) a servant. In other words, Jesus LOOKED LIKE a normal, everyday human servant.

WHICH MEANS AS WELL THAT HE WAS NOT ACTUALLY A SERVANT, ACCORDING TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING!

NOW

SINCE I HAVE BEEN ON HEAVEN NET YOU NEVER MADE IT CLEAR THAT JESUS:

ONLY BEHAVED AS A SERVANT, AND HE IS NOT ACTUALLY A SERVANT,

BUT YOU EVEN EMPHASIZED IT THAT JESUS WAS IN ACTUAL FACT

A SERVANT,

WHILE IN THE SAME BREATH YOU ALSO EMPHASIZED IT OPPOSITELY AND DECLARED THAT

JESUS IS NOT GOD?

Quote

So see? I understand them both the same way.

OBVIOUS I DO NOT BLAME YOU, SINCE YOU ARE LIVING IN A LA-LA LAND, AND THERE'S NO TRUTH AT ALL IN YOUR BOGUS UNDERSTANDING

NOW TO CONCLUDE, EXPLAIN HEREUNDER:

For which cause God also

hath exalted him,

IS HE STILL A SERVANT?

IS HE STILL ACTING AS A SERVANT?

and hath given him a name which is above all names:

ISN’T HIS NAME JESUS THE MOST POWERFUL NAME ON EARTH, AND IN HEAVEN?

10That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

DECLARED

11And that every tongue should confess that

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER.

WHAT A SERVANT !

THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST

AGAIN:

IS HE STILL A SERVANT?

IS HE STILL ACTING AS A SERVANT?

Hebrews 13:1 ……………….Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?

WHO IS SERVING WHO IN RESPECT TO THE ABOVE?

WHO IS SITTING MANIFESTING HIS UNIQUE ABSOLUTE SUPERIORITY OVER ALL CREATION?

WAITING FOR A MYSTERIOUS, UNKNOWN BEING TO MAKE HIS ENEMIES HIS FOOTSTOOL?

WHAT IS YOUR BOGUS, LA-LA LAND UNDERSTANDING !

ANSWER:

DID GOD ALMIGHTY ENRICH HIMSELF THROUGH JESUS’ PROCESS?

Peace and love in Jesus

Charels

June 22, 2014 at 3:54 am#389571

Blocked

Charles,

I just noticed that the word “theos” (god) in Phil 2:6 is not preceded by the definite article (the).

In cases like that, we must decide if it should be translated as, was existing in the form of God“, or, “was existing in the form of a god“.

Now that I've just noticed this, I'm leaning towards “a god”, since it make a better contrast to “form of a servant“.

Then the teaching would be that he was existing as a god in heaven before emptying himself and taking on the form of a servant on earth. Ie: “Mighty heavenly spirit being” versus “Lowly earthly flesh being”.

I will pray on that understanding – even though I feel confident that it was God who just led me to that revelation in the first place.

For our discussion, we can keep it as “God”. But realize that for us to come up with a capped version of “God” in English, we are often ADDING the definite article into the Greek words – when it wasn't actually written there. (This is called “Colwell's Rule”, and you can look into it if you'd like to.)

But the bottom line is that for us to say Jesus was existing in the form of “God” (capped “G”), we have to add the definite article to the Greek words, making them LITERALLY read, “was existing in the form of the god“.

And once we are considering that one person was existing in the form of a PARTICULAR PERSON (signified by the words “the god“), it becomes clear to us that the one person cannot actually BE that particular person in whose form he was existing.

See if you can follow………….

If the second part said Jesus was existing in the form of a particular servant, then we would know that Jesus wasn't actually that other particular servant. Likewise, since Jesus was existing in the form of a particular god, we know that Jesus wasn't actually that particular god in whose form he existed.

Consider this analogy – which ends up telling the same basic story as Phil 2:6-8……….

Jesus was existing in the form of the angel Gabriel, but emptied himself and took on the form of the man Adam.

In this analogy, you can see that Jesus was LIKE Gabriel, and had a glorious heavenly spirit body like Gabriel has…….. but he wasn't actually Gabriel himself.

And you can see that he emptied himself to be LIKE Adam, having a lowly earthly flesh body like Adam had………. but he wasn't actually Adam himself.

That's how it works when you are using particular people for your contrast. But what if we are using “a class of people“? Here's that analogy:

Jesus was existing in the form of an angel, but emptied himself and took on the form of a man.

In this case, Jesus can actually BE a member of the class of people in whose form he was existing. He could actually have BEEN “an angel”, and he could actually have BEEN “a man”……… because those are both CLASSES of people – of which Jesus could be a member. They are not the names of particular persons – which he could never actually BE, since he was existing “in their form”.

I don't know if you are still following me, but here is the final analogy, which contrasts a particular person against a class of people. (This is the correct contrast if you insist that “theos” in 2:6 refers to THE god.)

Jesus was existing in the form of Gabriel, but emptied himself and took on the form of a man.

See how the first part of the contrast is a particular person (Gabriel), but the second part is a class of people/beings (a man)?

So in this case, Jesus could have been existing “in the form of” Gabriel, but because of that, he couldn't have actually BEEN Gabriel. (You cannot BE the particular person in whose form you are existing.)

But for the latter part, Jesus indeed could have BEEN a member of that second form, since it wasn't a particular person, but instead a class of people.

So to sum up: Jesus could NOT actually be “Gabriel”. But Jesus COULD actually be “a man”.

Likewise, in Phil 2:6-8, Jesus could NOT actually be “God” (a particular person), but he COULD actually be “a servant” (a class of person).

Do you now understand why Jesus couldn't have BEEN “God”, but he could BE “a servant”? Because one is a particular person, and the other is a class of person/people.

Understand?

June 23, 2014 at 3:15 am#389672

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,12:34)

Quote (jammin @ June 20 2014,06:31)

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,04:48)

Quote (jammin @ June 19 2014,18:49)

Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2014,03:54)

Jammin,

I already pointed out Jesus is not all powerful as he was the one that was appointed not the one the one that did the appointing. Since Jesus is not all powerful then it is clear that is not the essence of God or part of the essence he exists in.

according to you, jesus is not all powerful. therefore he is not God by nature.

the bible says

Philippians 2:6
New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

Philippians 2:6
Amplified Bible (AMP)

6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God],

it is very clear that your doctrine is not written in the bible. according to paul, Christ is God by nature.

if Christ is not all powerful, he is not God by nature ( according to you). if he is not God by nature, he is MAN. but paul said…
phil 2.7
He became like men and was born a human being.

do you understand that? why say ” he became like men” if he does not have pre existence? do you understand what i am saying?

i believe what is written in the bible and the bible said Christ is God by nature and he is EQUAL WITH GOD. he is God and Lord, thomas said.

HE is God, john said.
he is God by nature, paul said.

therefore, you are wrong.

Jammin,

What is clear is that none of these prove anything as the amplified includes in line cometary. For example “[[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God]”

“Except for the “which make God God” comment it is pretty much line. I already pointed out Jesus is not all powerful and Jesus was tempted by evil which proves that claim is false.

What Scripture states is “that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.”, Ephesians 3:19 NIV and “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form…”, Colossians 2:9 NIV.

In short Jesus has continually possessed the fullness of the attributes of God and it is his hope that we too will come to posses the same fullness of the attributes of God.

you said “we too will come to posses the same fullness of the attributes of God”

what verse is that? that is ridiculous. you are a false teacher.

Jammin,

Ephesians 3:19, which I already gave you the quote from.

it does not say that in eph 3.19 boy

let me post it

Ephesians 3:19

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

19 And to know the [a]love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all [c]fullness of God.

footnote
Ephesians 3:19 So that we have abundantly in us, whatsoever things are required to make us perfect with God.

eph 3.19 did not say that WE WILL HAVE THE NATURE OF GOD (omnipresence,omnipotent,omniscient etc). this verse speaks about the whatsoever things are required to MAKE US PERFECT WITH GOD!

some version says

Ephesians 3:19

New Living Translation (NLT)

19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

it is clear that you do not understand what you are saying and i am not surprised because you are a false teacher. Christ has the nature of God. he is GOD just like his father. john called him God. paul called him God. thomas called him Lord and my God.

make your own bible.hahaha

June 23, 2014 at 3:26 am#389673

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 20 2014,13:56)

Quote (jammin @ June 19 2014,06:55)

the bible said YES he is all powerful

Revelation 1:8
The Voice (VOICE)

Lord God: 8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, [the very beginning and the very end,][a] the One who is, the One who was, and the One who is coming: the All Powerful.

jammin,

Do a quick search through Revelation, and tell me who is ALWAYS called “the Lord God” in that Book.

For example, the One who sits on the throne, that the Lamb takes the scroll from – is the One called “the Lord God”.

The title “the Lord God” ALWAYS refers to Jehovah in Revelation. And that includes Rev 1:8.

Besides, does one who is “all powerful” wait for his own God to place all his enemies at his feet, so he can then destroy those enemies? Because that is exactly what Jesus is doing. (Hebrews 10:13)

Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David……….

See how Jesus is NOT “the Most High”, but the Son OF the Most High? See how “the Most High” is called “the Lord God” – just like in Revelation?

Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”

Is Jesus “the Most High God” – according to the above scripture? Or is Jesus the SON OF the Most High God? Which one? (I really NEED you to answer this question.)

are we talking about luke 8.28 and luke 1.32 i said rev 1.8 and that is Christ

if you read the context, you will see that one who is coming is Jesus and not the father.

rev 1
7 Look, Jesus is coming with the clouds! Everyone will see him, even those who pierced him. All peoples of the earth will cry loudly because of him. Yes, this will happen! Amen.

8 The Lord God says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega.I am the one who is, who always was, and who is coming. I am the All-Powerful.”

PULPIT COMMENTARY

“the Revelation of Jesus Christ” as God and as the Almighty “Ruler of the kings of the earth.” Yet the fact that similar language is also used of the Father (Revelation 6:6; Revelation 21:6) shows how clearly St. John teaches that Jesus Christ is “equal to the Father as touching his Godhead.”

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

I am Alpha and Omega,…. These are the words of Christ himself, appearing at once, and confirming what John had said of him, concerning his person, offices, and future coming:

BIBLE VERSIONS AND COMMENTARIES AGREE TO ME.

you and kerwin and t wont win in a public debate. you know why? because you have no enough evidence to prove your claim. sorry boys. hahaha

June 23, 2014 at 3:28 am#389674

Participant

i understand if you CANT answer my questions. just go to your backyard and plant some potatoes. maybe in that way you will be able to help your country

June 23, 2014 at 5:24 am#389679

Participant

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,09:28)

i understand if you CANT answer my questions. just go to your backyard and plant some potatoes. maybe in that way you will be able to help your country

Jammy

you have been answered 100th times by me,Mike,kerwin and others ,

you are so ridiculously blind that after so many time we have answered you still ask for the same question(s)

i really think you would do better if you start planting potatoes,in someone else yard ,and argue with them why you plant in their yard and not yours,

June 23, 2014 at 4:45 pm#389709

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,16:24)

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,09:28)

i understand if you CANT answer my questions. just go to your backyard and plant some potatoes. maybe in that way you will be able to help your country

Jammy

you have been answered 100th times by me,Mike,kerwin and others ,

you are so ridiculously blind that after so many time we have answered you still ask for the same question(s)

i really think you would do better if you start planting potatoes,in someone else yard ,and argue with them why you plant in their yard and not yours,

can you post here again the answer of kerwin and mike and others about my questions?

ill repeat my questions

is the president all powerful? yes or no?
are you all powerful? yes or no?

if both answers are no, do you accept that you and the president are EQUAL in essence?

June 23, 2014 at 5:05 pm#389710

Participant

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,22:45)

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,16:24)

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,09:28)

i understand if you CANT answer my questions. just go to your backyard and plant some potatoes. maybe in that way you will be able to help your country

Jammy

you have been answered 100th times by me,Mike,kerwin and others ,

you are so ridiculously blind that after so many time we have answered you still ask for the same question(s)

i really think you would do better if you start planting potatoes,in someone else yard ,and argue with them why you plant in their yard and not yours,

can you post here again the answer of kerwin and mike and others about my questions?

ill repeat my questions

is the president all powerful? yes or no?
are you all powerful? yes or no?

if both answers are no, do you accept that you and the president are EQUAL in essence?

still do not learn anything

June 23, 2014 at 6:04 pm#389716

Participant

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,22:45)

Quote (terraricca @ June 23 2014,16:24)

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,09:28)

i understand if you CANT answer my questions. just go to your backyard and plant some potatoes. maybe in that way you will be able to help your country

Jammy

you have been answered 100th times by me,Mike,kerwin and others ,

you are so ridiculously blind that after so many time we have answered you still ask for the same question(s)

i really think you would do better if you start planting potatoes,in someone else yard ,and argue with them why you plant in their yard and not yours,

can you post here again the answer of kerwin and mike and others about my questions?

ill repeat my questions

is the president all powerful? yes or no?
are you all powerful? yes or no?

if both answers are no, do you accept that you and the president are EQUAL in essence?

Jammin,

We have already covered that and gone beyond it in our conversation as you have now made clear that the nature you believe Jesus is essentially equal to God in is God's nature of being all powerful. The flaw in your reason is that Jesus is not all powerful. Mike also has made the same point and you have failed to address it.

In my case Jesus was appointed as Lord of everything in heaven and on earth. God appointed him and Jesus cannot appoint another to his position therefore God is superior in power.

June 23, 2014 at 6:08 pm#389717

Participant

Quote (jammin @ June 23 2014,09:15)

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,12:34)

Quote (jammin @ June 20 2014,06:31)

Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2014,04:48)

Quote (jammin @ June 19 2014,18:49)

Quote (kerwin @ June 18 2014,03:54)

Jammin,

according to you, jesus is not all powerful. therefore he is not God by nature.

the bible says

Philippians 2:6
New International Version (NIV)

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

Philippians 2:6
Amplified Bible (AMP)

6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God],

it is very clear that your doctrine is not written in the bible. according to paul, Christ is God by nature.

if Christ is not all powerful, he is not God by nature ( according to you). if he is not God by nature, he is MAN. but paul said…
phil 2.7
He became like men and was born a human being.

do you understand that? why say ” he became like men” if he does not have pre existence? do you understand what i am saying?

i believe what is written in the bible and the bible said Christ is God by nature and he is EQUAL WITH GOD. he is God and Lord, thomas said.

HE is God, john said.
he is God by nature, paul said.

therefore, you are wrong.

Jammin,

What is clear is that none of these prove anything as the amplified includes in line cometary. For example “[[a]possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God]”

“Except for the “which make God God” comment it is pretty much line. I already pointed out Jesus is not all powerful and Jesus was tempted by evil which proves that claim is false.

In short Jesus has continually possessed the fullness of the attributes of God and it is his hope that we too will come to posses the same fullness of the attributes of God.

you said “we too will come to posses the same fullness of the attributes of God”

what verse is that? that is ridiculous. you are a false teacher.

Jammin,

Ephesians 3:19, which I already gave you the quote from.

it does not say that in eph 3.19 boy

let me post it

Ephesians 3:19

1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

19 And to know the [a]love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled with all [c]fullness of God.

footnote
Ephesians 3:19 So that we have abundantly in us, whatsoever things are required to make us perfect with God.

eph 3.19 did not say that WE WILL HAVE THE NATURE OF GOD (omnipresence,omnipotent,omniscient etc). this verse speaks about the whatsoever things are required to MAKE US PERFECT WITH GOD!

some version says

Ephesians 3:19

New Living Translation (NLT)

19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

make your own bible.hahaha

Jammin,

I am aware that trinitarians will often translate and interpret the same words applied to Jesus differently than when applied to Jesus. You have to already believe Jesus is God or be gullible to accept such explanations.

You have failed to prove Jesus is all powerful.

June 23, 2014 at 11:30 pm#389728

Blocked

Quote (jammin @ June 22 2014,21:26)

BIBLE VERSIONS AND COMMENTARIES AGREE TO ME.

Of course they agree with you……. since those commentaries were written by Trinitarians!

But consider:

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

In the above verse, is Jesus “the Lamb”? Or is he “the Lord God Almighty”?

So it doesn't matter that a Trinitarian commentator WANTS Jesus to be “the Lord God Almighty” in 1:8 – because other scriptures make it ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that Jesus is NOT “Almighty”.

Hebrews 10
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool.

First of all, “God” is the one Jesus sits at the right hand OF, jammin. And it is not “God” who sits at the right hand of “God”………… unless you believe there are TWO Gods.

Secondly, nobody who is “Almighty” sits and waits for SOMEONE ELSE to place his enemies at his feet, so he can then destroy those enemies.

So once again, it doesn't matter one little bit how many Trinitarians want to take verses in the Bible that are about Jehovah, and apply those verses to Jesus……. because there are enough ABUNDANTLY CLEAR scriptures in the Bible to let even a 3 year old kid know that Jesus is NOT the God he is the Son, Servant, Lamb, Prophet, Priest, and Messiah OF.

The very thought that there are “so-called intelligent” people out there who believe that the Son, Servant, Lamb, Prophet, Priest, and Messiah OF God could actually BE the God he is all those things OF – really baffles me.

But these people do exist, nonetheless. The question is: Why would anyone in their right mind believe the nonsensical things these confused people have to say?

June 23, 2014 at 11:34 pm#389729