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- mikeboll64,May wrote:
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Quote A father can give his son “everything he owns”. But we must also use reason, Charles. If God literally gave Jesus EVERYTHING, then God Himself would have NOTHING – not even an existence. Mike,
SINCE YOU SHIFTED YOUR ARGUMENT, LIKE YOU DID IN THE OTHER POST, WHEN YOU GAVE AN ANSWER OUT OF CONTEXT IN RESPECT TO MY QUESTION,
I AM POSITIVELY SURE THAT YOU LOST YOUR ARGUMENT REGARDING JESUS’ OWN SPIRITUAL STATE ON EARTH,
AS USUAL,ONLY MIKE CONCLUDES SUCH MUMBO JUMBO STUFF! BECAUSE HE IS A MERE MORTAL BEING ANCHORED WITH WORLDLY WISDOM, AND HE DOESN'T RESPECT GOD AS GOD, BUT AS A LIMITED BEING, OR EVEN AS AS ORDINARY HUMAN FLESH FATHER YOU NEVER STOP RIDICULE GOD ALMIGHTY BY COMPARING HIM WITH HIS CREATURES!
GOD’S THINGS ARE NOT MATERIAL SUCH AS PROPERTY OR MONEY, BUT SPIRITUAL POWERS AND ATTRIBUTES IN A WAY THAT AS SOON AS JESUS OPEN HIS MOUTH ALL THE ENTIRE SPIRITUAL FORCES SIMPLY OBEY! THESE POWERS ARE STILL OWNED BY GOD EVEN MORE THAN EVER, FOR THE SIMPLE REASON THAT JESUS IS CONFIRMED
THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST! FOR THE GLORY OF THE FATHER!
SO GOD AND JESUS ARE INTEGRATED AS ONE IN EVERY SENSE!
SO BY GIVING ALL HIS THINGS TO JESUS, NOT ONLY HE DOESN'T LOSE HIS EXISTENCE BUT HE IS ASSERTED AND ACCEPTED THROUGHOUT ALL THE UNIVERSES MORE THAN EVER!AND STILL MAINTAINS EVERYTHING TO HIMSELF! THROUGH JESUS CHRIST!
ALL MINE ARE YOURS AND YOURS ARE MINE SHARING MIKE
THE FATHER GAVE ALL HIS SPIRITUAL ATTRIBUTES TO JESUS, AND JESUS GAVE ALL HIS HUMAN ATTRIBUTES TO THE FATHER!
AND BOTH OF THEM RETAINED THEIR OWN!
SO AGAIN SINCE GOD GAVE ALL HIS THINGS TO JESUS,
JESUS IS GOD AS ALMIGHTY IS GOD!
JESUS IS FATHER AS ALMIGHTY GOD IS FATHER!
JESUS IS A CREATOR AS GOD ALMIGHTY IS A CREATOR!
Quote Remember Charles, there isn't a servant who “became” God Almighty. There still exists both God Almighty and His holy servant Jesus Christ. WRONG AGAIN MIKE,
GOD SEND HIS SON NEITHER TO REMAIN A SON, NOR TO REMAIN A SERVANT! SIMPLY BECAUSE HE DIED UNDER THOSE TITLES AND HE RESURRECTED IN THE
THE GLORY OF OUR FATHER AND OUR GOD! AS HE SAID TO MARY MAGDALENE!
AND THERE'S NO HIGHER NAME BOTH IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH THAN THAT OF JESUS CHRIST!
GOD HIMSELF,DECLARED THAT IT IS HIS TURN TO SERVE JESUS CHRIST AND PUT ALL HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET AS HIS FOOTSTOOL!
WHY NOT UNDER GOD ALMIGHTY'S FEET MIKE? TELL ME MIKE, SHOW YOUR WISDOM!
Quote There is still a Most High God. His name is Jehovah. Jesus remains Jehovah's prophet, priest, spokesman, messiah, and servant. He is not equal to Jehovah, but sits at the NEXT HIGHEST position there is – at Jehovah's right hand. AGAIN:JESUS CHRIST HAS INHERITED ALL THE FATHER'S ATTRIBUTES
SO HE IS THE MOST HIGH TANGIBLE GOD!
THE FATHER IS THE MOST HIGH SPIRIT GOD!
ON THE LAST DAY ALMIGHTY GOD WOULD OWN THAT TANGIBILITY STATE! IN THE SAME BEING JESUS CHRIST!
ALL BY HIM, ALL IN HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM!
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:19) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) It doesn't matter, because Jesus only used the word FLESH, Kerwin. Jesus effectively took away your “flesh and BONE can enter” argument – long before Paul ever wrote his first letter to the Corinthians. So it's time you give it up – don't you think? Jesus is speaking of the renewal of the spirit, Psalms 51:10, something any teacher of God's people should know.
That's not what Jesus was speaking about, Kerwin.Did God ever “renew” a spirit in someone? When that happened, did that person become able to enter into the kingdom of God? Could he go back and forth from heaven to earth at will?
And how about that person's children? After his spirit was renewed, did he continue to be FLESH, and therefore continue to have FLESH children?
Also, did FLESH give birth to that person's ORIGINAL spirit? Or was the ORIGINAL spirit he was born with created by something other than flesh? It is the latter, right? Because flesh cannot give birth to spirit, right?
So if the man's ORIGINAL spirit was already NOT born by flesh, then why would he HIMSELF need to be “born again”?
Also, Nick is right that “soul” is meant in Psalm 51:10. Because the actual SPIRIT of David is something from God in the first place, and can therefore not have been “damaged”. The soul, on the other hand, is the inner man, and can make bad decisions like the one David made with Bathsheba…….. which is what that psalm is about.
Kerwin, all of those are very good reasons that Jesus didn't have 51:10 in mind. Instead, Jesus was saying that human beings LITERALLY need to be born again of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to see, or enter, the kingdom of God.
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:04) Mike, Quote So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself? And BLOOD can enter, all by itself? But they can't enter as a combination?
That would be the literal interpretation. If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?
Note: Be careful not to read into my words. I am investigating not stating a conclusion.
Kerwin,Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.
If I say you are FLESH – it doesn't mean you don't have blood and bone also, right?
Jesus ONLY said “flesh”. Paul said “flesh and blood”. Someone else could have said, “flesh and BONE”. But they would all mean the same thing, which is: FLESHLY HUMAN BEINGS cannot enter the spirit realm of heaven. They must be born of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter and dwell there.
Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:33) I doubt that there are literally souls under the altar of heaven as the claim sounds metaphoric.
It doesn't sound “metaphoric” to me. Perhaps it does to you because of what you WANT the scripture to teach.I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach. So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said.
I know there are many metaphorical statements in scripture. But I see no reason to assume that is one of them.
Jesus clearly said that some of his disciples would not even taste death before seeing the kingdom of God, right? These souls under the alter are ex-human beings who were EXPLICITLY killed for holding to the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus. I believe Peter, Paul and Stephen are three of those souls.
Surely you know the cliché about a person dying, and their soul leaves their body and goes up to see Peter at the pearly gates, right? Christianity in general believes this happens to EVERYONE who is “good”. I don't believe that, but – except for the “Peter at the pearly gates” part – I do believe it happened to those souls under the alter, who were killed for the sole reason of holding to God's word and the testimony of Christ.
These ones didn't even “taste death” (enter Sheol, or whatever) – but were transformed in the blink of an eye immediately upon their earthly death. And that fulfills Jesus' words that he spoke on the matter.
But you are free to believe what you want.
Mike,
Quote Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”. Not all believe your claim. Some believe Jesus had no blood after his resurrection and I cannot not say he did as I know the power of God.
Mike,
Quote I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach. So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said. You do realize if your understanding is wrong it is because you do not believe what Scripture teaches.
Quote (jammin @ May 16 2014,10:45) if christ is not equal with God then paul should not say did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. do you understand the logic here? commentaries also supported my view that Christ is equal with God
Pulpit Commentary
“to be equal with God.” Christ was equal with God (John 5:18; John 10:30). He did not cling to the outward manifestation of that equality.Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
thought it no robbery to be equal with God; the Father; for if he was in the same form, nature, and essence, he must be equal to him, as he is;even the jews know that Christ claimed to be equal with God
John 5:18
New International Version (NIV)18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
jammin,“Did NOT consider equality with God something TO BE GRASPED” means that Jesus DIDN'T even CONSIDER being equal to his and our God, Jehovah. In other words, Jesus never gave one thought to the possibility that he could be equal to God. He knew equality with God was IMPOSSIBLE, so he never even CONSIDERED it.
As for your commentaries, like I said before: Even IF someone says Jesus is “equal TO God”, they are at the same time saying Jesus is NOT God.
Don't you understand this? If you are “equal TO” the Creator of the universe”, then it means you AREN'T “the Creator of the universe”.
If I am “equal TO” Bob Marley, then it is clear that I am NOT “Bob Marley”.
Do you understand that? So any scholar who tells you that Jesus was “equal TO” God, is also, with those very words, telling you that Jesus ISN'T God.
Quote (carmel @ May 16 2014,15:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2014,10:26) Remember Charles, there isn't a servant who “became” God Almighty. There still exists both God Almighty and His holy servant Jesus Christ. WRONG AGAIN MIKE………..
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2014,10:26) There is still a Most High God. His name is Jehovah. Jesus remains Jehovah's prophet, priest, spokesman, messiah, and servant. He is not equal to Jehovah, but sits at the NEXT HIGHEST position there is – at Jehovah's right hand.
SO HE IS THE MOST HIGH TANGIBLE GOD!THE FATHER IS THE MOST HIGH SPIRIT GOD!
Charles,God sent His only begotten Son to earth as a sacrificial lamb that GOD offered up on our behalf.
The lamb was never the God who offered him up……. and never WILL BE the God who offered him up.
If you cannot understand these simple Biblical principles, how can I have a serious scriptural discussion with you?
Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:50) Mike, Quote I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach. So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said. You do realize if your understanding is wrong it is because you do not believe what Scripture teaches.
I believe exactly what scripture teaches, Kerwin.
I explained to you my understanding of the souls under the alter. What have you to say? Can you refute that understanding? Even if you don't understand it the same way, can you seriously tell me for a fact that MY understanding is wrong – because I “don't believe what scripture teaches”?
Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:48) Mike, Quote Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”. Not all believe your claim. Some believe Jesus had no blood after his resurrection and I cannot not say he did as I know the power of God.
All of this is a WASTE OF TIME, Kerwin.JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!
That's the END of this “flesh” versus “bone” versus “blood” discussion, okay? Because JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:16) Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:50) Mike, Quote I don't have any WISHES for what the scriptures SHOULD teach. So when John said there were souls under the alter in heaven, I have no reason to disbelieve what he said. You do realize if your understanding is wrong it is because you do not believe what Scripture teaches.
I believe exactly what scripture teaches, Kerwin.
I explained to you my understanding of the souls under the alter. What have you to say? Can you refute that understanding? Even if you don't understand it the same way, can you seriously tell me for a fact that MY understanding is wrong – because I “don't believe what scripture teaches”?
Mike,Your understanding is addition to the message of Scripture. Scripture testifies that the souls of the dead go to Sheol. The righteous to the paradise of that place and the wicked to the place of torment. There is also an evidence of the belief in ghosts among the people of Scripture. There is nothing about souls that ascend to heaven.
My understanding does not add to the message of Scripture. It simply goes on the message that is taught in Scripture about Jesus being the high priest that serves in heavenly places.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,08:17) Quote (kerwin @ May 16 2014,19:48) Mike, Quote Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”. Not all believe your claim. Some believe Jesus had no blood after his resurrection and I cannot not say he did as I know the power of God.
All of this is a WASTE OF TIME, Kerwin.JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!
That's the END of this “flesh” versus “bone” versus “blood” discussion, okay? Because JESUS ONLY SAID “FLESH”!
Miike,In this case you are both adding to the message of Scripture and taking away from the message of Scripture because you want so much for the passage to support your own and the Gnostics belief that flesh is someway flawed.
It is crucial that men hear that they require a new spirit to inherit the world to come and yet by your choice of interpretation you hide that fact.
It is also important that men believe in the resurrection and your body does not qualify as a resurrection. What you are claiming instead is that the dead become angels. Scripture never states me will become angels. Instead it states humans will become like angels having both the knowledge of good and evil and eternal life.
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:04) Mike, Your understanding is addition to the message of Scripture.
Hmmmm……….Let's see…….. In his vision, did John see the souls of those who had died for the word of God and testimony of Jesus under the alter in heaven?
Yes. So where is the “addition” you're talking about then?
Did Jesus say that some of them standing in his presence would not taste death before seeing the kingdom of God?
Yes. So where is the “addition” you're talking about?
Seriously…….. I really want to know, Kerwin.
Mike,
I already told you that there is no evidence that souls enter heaven. It is only your choice to interpret prophecy literally that gives you any evidence. You make that choice even though you know that prophecy is often metaphoric.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,12:36) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:04) Mike, Quote So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself? And BLOOD can enter, all by itself? But they can't enter as a combination?
That would be the literal interpretation. If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?
Note: Be careful not to read into my words. I am investigating not stating a conclusion.
Kerwin,Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.
If I say you are FLESH – it doesn't mean you don't have blood and bone also, right?
Jesus ONLY said “flesh”. Paul said “flesh and blood”. Someone else could have said, “flesh and BONE”. But they would all mean the same thing, which is: FLESHLY HUMAN BEINGS cannot enter the spirit realm of heaven. They must be born of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter and dwell there.
Hi MikeI just want to butt in and say well spoken
Quote (journey42 @ May 18 2014,06:31) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2014,12:36) Quote (kerwin @ May 15 2014,22:04) Mike, Quote So you think FLESH can enter, all by itself? And BLOOD can enter, all by itself? But they can't enter as a combination?
That would be the literal interpretation. If Paul meant only flesh could not inherit then why add the words “and blood”?
Note: Be careful not to read into my words. I am investigating not stating a conclusion.
Kerwin,Flesh, blood, and bone all go together. If I say YOU are “flesh and blood” – it doesn't mean you don't have any BONE in you – just because I didn't specifically mention “bone”.
If I say you are FLESH – it doesn't mean you don't have blood and bone also, right?
Jesus ONLY said “flesh”. Paul said “flesh and blood”. Someone else could have said, “flesh and BONE”. But they would all mean the same thing, which is: FLESHLY HUMAN BEINGS cannot enter the spirit realm of heaven. They must be born of something OTHER THAN flesh in order to enter and dwell there.
Hi MikeI just want to butt in and say well spoken
Journey,Perhaps but since it was about literal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:50 not actually addressing the same line of conversation.
Why limit it to flesh, blood, and bone if you choose an expansive interpretation? Humans also have a soul and spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:11) It is crucial that men hear that they require a new spirit to inherit the world to come and yet by your choice of interpretation you hide that fact.
Can you show me this teaching in a scripture or two?Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:11) In this case you are both adding to the message of Scripture and taking away from the message of Scripture because you want so much for the passage to support your own and the Gnostics belief that flesh is someway flawed. It seems pretty straight-forward to me, Kerwin.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and spirit.”Born of what, Kerwin? Water, spirit, AND FLESH? Or just “water” and “spirit”?
John 3
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’What does flesh give birth to? Flesh, right? And what does spirit give birth to? Spirit, right? So WHY is it that FLESH beings must be “born again” to see or enter the kingdom of God?
John 3:8
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of spirit.Sounds to me like we can't even SEE those who are born of spirit, Kerwin. Those born of spirit are like the wind. We can hear their sound, but don't know where they come from or where they're going, because we can't SEE them.
Aren't angels also compared to “wind” somewhere? And didn't Jesus say we would be “like the angels”?
Kerwin, I'm neither adding to, or taking from the scriptures. I 100% understand Jesus' teaching to Nicodemus to be saying that we must be born of something other than flesh in order to see, or enter, the kingdom of God. I 100% think that is exactly what Paul is also teaching in 1 Cor 15.
Flesh gives birth to flesh. Those of heaven have spiritual bodies. We all have already borne the flesh body. We will someday bear the kind of body those of heaven have. Paul looked forward to having his lowly body transformed into a body like the new glorious body Jesus now has. (Phil 3:21)
So I don't have to “add” anything to come to that conclusion. Nor do I even know what the Gnostics believed. But if they believed like I do on this one point, then they were right on this one point.
Quote (kerwin @ May 17 2014,17:11) It is also important that men believe in the resurrection and your body does not qualify as a resurrection. What you are claiming instead is that the dead become angels. Scripture never states me will become angels. Instead it states humans will become like angels having both the knowledge of good and evil and eternal life.
I don't claim humans will BECOME angels. I say they will have spiritual bodies like those of heaven have. I say they will be LIKE the angels.Kerwin, why do you suppose people kept asking Paul what kind of BODIES they would be raised with in the resurrection? Do you suppose they asked him that question because they all thought they'd be raised with the SAME EXACT kind of body they already have?
Of course not. They asked because they KNEW they would be raised with a DIFFERENT kind of body……. and they wanted to know what kind it would be.
Paul's answer? “SPIRITUAL, like those of heaven have…….. not FLESH, like those of earth have. We already had the first kind. In the resurrection, we will have the second kind.”
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