JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

[NickHassan]

Hi KW,
The Holy Spirit brings gifts.
The Spirit of Christ manifested in the Prophets who were judged as clean by God.
None received the Spirit of Christ under the new covenant till he returned to God and the Spirit was shared.

[journey42]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:14)

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 27 2014,20:40) I say he knew exactly what he was doing. keeping the understanding hidden from wolves in sheep's clothing………. So those who know that God, who never changes, did NOT become His own servant, are “wolves in sheep's clothing”? journey, our one and only God was never WITH our one and only God. Nor did something that used to BE God Himself become a different living, breathing being who serves the God he used to be.

Mike

I am doing my best to address ALL your questions.
I would appreciate the same respect.
You keep half quoting me.
You said that God should of written it this way,
This is what I answered.

Quote

Who are we to say how God should of explained it? I say he didn't explain it wrong. I say he knew exactly what he was doing. keeping the understanding hidden from wolves in sheep's clothing, and making this verse true;

Those wolves in sheep's clothing are the ones that told you not to trust the holy bible, that it's worded wrong. So they made their own bible instead from some fragments, which do not agree with the 95% of copies that agree with that bible you hate so much, and issued out for the first time in history to the gentiles all over the world without it being against the law, and having a death penalty attached to reading it,
……. and besides a few little printing errors, or commentaries that have been taking away, and things that don't belong, it REMAINS UNCHANGED TO THIS VERY DAY, never needing to be REVISED.

God never changes Mike.
Because he gives his WORD to have life in himself, does not mean that the WORD has departed from him.
It is still there with him as powerful as ever,
and even more powerful because now there are two, speaking the SAME WORD,

There was no need to rephrase in the beginning “and the Word was A God” because there was no other God beside himself, and the scriptures I gave you confirm that he was by himself, and his LIVING WORD, had not yet transformed into the man Jesus Christ and given all power and authority to be served and worshiped as God with his own identity.
And there is still and will always be only ONE GOD,
and the fact God called Jesus God, is because he is now worshipped also and has the power to forgive sins, and hold the keys to death and hell. Because God gave him that power.
So no two God's in heaven, in the beginning, only ONE GOD working through HIS VERY OWN WORD who he gave life to have in himself, but under total subjection and control, until he was made flesh, and given his own will to carry out his obedience through choice now, and not control.

[journey42]

mikeboll64,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

God “gave us” the Coptic translation hundreds of years BEFORE He “gave us” the KJV, journey.  Are you missing this fact?

Then why did he not send it out to the gentiles at the command of a king, who had the power to change the Law and not persecute anyone for reading it?
Why not send out the Coptic Version to the gentiles?
Why send it out 400 years later?
Why trick all the people?
“Boobytrap,”
“I fooled you's all”
“ha ha”, I left my real word in “Egypt” in the land of the pharoah's and idles, and endless gods,
in the land I freed my people from,
and the land I now call my people “Sodom and Egypt”
because of their detestable ways
I hid my word there,”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)

You keep half quoting me.

I quote the parts of your post that I am responding to, journey.  There is no reason to keep re-quoting the entire post each time.  In fact, t8 and I have worked to keep others here from doing that.  There is no reason to have a post that has 27 different quote boxes within it, displaying an entire week-long discussion – when all you're doing is replying to the very last part.

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)

Those wolves in sheep's clothing are the ones that told you not to trust the holy bible, that it's worded wrong.

To get a translation of, “and the Word was God”, the translator must ADD the definite article “THE” to John's original words.  But this is something John himself could have done when he originally wrote 1:1…………. IF he wanted the last part to say, “and the word was THE god”.

There is a REASON John wrote “THE logos” two times, and “THE god” only one time, journey.  Aren't you curious about WHY John DIDN'T write, “and the word was THE god” – when he certainly COULD HAVE?

I trust in the Holy Bible that was written in Hebrew and Greek.  Don't confuse the often-flawed English TRANSLATIONS of those Hebrew and Greek words with “the Holy Bible” itself.  They are often two completely different things.

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)

God never changes Mike. Because he gives his WORD to have life in himself, does not mean that the WORD has departed from him………

Are you saying the Word who became flesh REMAINED the very God it was brought forth from?  Or was the Word who became flesh a completely DIFFERENT living, breathing being after it was brought forth from Jehovah?  

If your understanding is the latter, then you have a case of a living, breathing being who USED TO BE God Himself, but who is no longer God Himself.   And that understanding directly contradicts your first statement that God never changes.

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)

It is still there with him as powerful as ever, and even more powerful because now there are two, speaking the SAME WORD.

Two WHAT, journey?  Two gods?

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)

There was no need to rephrase in the beginning “and the Word was A God” because there was no other God beside himself………

So what about AFTER God spoke this Word out of His mouth – or whatever it is you believe?  Was there another god beside Him THEN?  Or was this new “Word-being” not a god at all?  And if not, then what WAS this new being who later became flesh?

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:05)

And there is still and will always be only ONE GOD, and the fact God called Jesus God, is because he is now worshipped also and has the power to forgive sins, and hold the keys to death and hell.  Because God gave him that power.

God gave WHO that power, journey?  Did Jehovah give that power to HIMSELF?  If not, then the person Jehovah GAVE that power to is NOT Jehovah Himself, and should therefore NOT be worshipped and served as if he IS Jehovah Himself.

[carmel]

Wakeup,Mar. wrote:

[/quote]

Quote

Speaking of the resurrection. They are born of God's woman,she is spirit.

Wakeup,

WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ:

THEY ARE BORN OF GOD'S WOMAN, SHE IS SPIRIT!

DON'T KEEP BUILDING UP SUCH INVENTIONS!

UP TO NOW YOU BUILT TWO:

THE FIRST ONE WAS:

THEY WERE BORN BY THE WILL OF GOD!

Peace and love in Jesus

Charles

[mikeboll64]

Quote (journey42 @ Mar. 30 2014,04:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2014,05:27) God “gave us” the Coptic translation hundreds of years BEFORE He “gave us” the KJV, journey.  Are you missing this fact? Then why did he not send it out to the gentiles at the command of a king, who had the power to change the Law and not persecute anyone for reading it? Why not send out the Coptic Version to the gentiles? Why send it out 400 years later? Why trick all the people? “Boobytrap,” “I fooled you's all” “ha ha”, I left my real word in “Egypt” in the land of the pharoah's and idles, and endless gods, in the land I freed my people from, and the land I now call my people “Sodom and Egypt” because of their detestable ways I hid my word there,”?

There was no “booby trap”, journey.  The Greek teaching John wrote was already about a god who was with THE god in the beginning.

But it wasn't until the Greek was translated into a language that uses the indefinite article “a” that “a god” could be written.

journey, even the Trinitarian expert scholars know that the Word couldn't have been THE very God he was WITH in the beginning.

Daniel B. Wallace says, Its lack of a definite article keeps us from identifying the person of the Word (Jesus Christ) with the person of “God” (the Father).

The 25 Trinitarian scholars of NET Bible say, The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)

From Professor Jason David BeDuhn’s book TRUTH IN TRANSLATION:  ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT: “Surprisingly, only one, the NWT, adheres to the literal meaning of the Greek, and translates ‘a god’.  

Translators for the KJV, NRSV, NIV, NAB, NASB, AB, TEV, and LB all approached the text at John 1:1 already believing certain things about the Word, and made sure that the translations came out in accordance with their beliefs.  Ironically, some of these same scholars a quick to charge the NW translation with ‘doctrinal bias’ for translating the verse literally, free of KJV influence, following the sense of the Greek.  It may very well be that the NW translators came to the task of translating John 1:1 with as much bias as the other translators did.  It just so happens that their bias corresponds in this case to a more accurate translation of the Greek.

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris has written: “Accordingly, from the point of view of grammar alone, [QEOS HN hO LOGOS] could be rendered “the Word was a god,….”

Trinitarian scholar C. H. Dodd says: “……a possible translation of [QEOS EN hO LOGOS]; would be, “The Word was a god”. As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.“

And here are just a few of the many translations that don't fall victim to, “and the Word was God”:

1808 “and the Word was a god” – Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text , London.

1864 “and a god was the Word” The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935 “and the Word was divine” – The Bible—An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1955 “so the Word was divine” – The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield, Aberdeen.

1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1822 “and the Word was a god.” – The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.);

1863 “and the Word was a god.” – A Literal Translation Of The New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863);

1885 “and the Word was a god.” – Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible (R. Young, 1885);

1879 “and the Word was a god.” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);

1911 “and the Word was a god.” – The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);

1958 “and the Word was a god.” – The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed” (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);

1829 “and the Word was a god.” – The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);

1975 “and the Word was a god.” – Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

1975 “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word” Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

So it is not just the Coptic and NWT translations, journey. There are many people, Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian alike, who know that John wasn't trying to tell us that THE God was with THE God.

Whether you ever understand this fact remains to be seen.

[mikeboll64]

journey,

Maybe this will help:

Acts 12:22 King James Version
And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

In the Greek, this says the crowd shouted that it was the voice “of god and not of man”.

Now I could say that the KJV is wrong, because they ADD the word “a” before “god” and before “man”.  That word isn't in the Greek language… so why do they ADD it, journey?

They add it BECAUSE they know that the Greek language doesn't use an indefinite article, but English does.  And they know by the fact that Luke DIDN'T write, “the voice of THE god”, that he wasn't talking about people who thought Herod was THE God Jehovah.

Do you understand yet?  Luke COULD HAVE written, “the voice of THE god”………. IF Luke had wanted to teach us that the people thought Herod spoke with the voice of THE God.

But since Luke didn't have the CHOICE of writing “the voice of A god” – because his language didn't have the word “a” – we can know he MEANT “a god” from the fact that he DIDN'T write “THE god”.

It is the same in John 1:1.  If John wanted us to believe the Word was THE God, then John could have simply WRITTEN that the Word was THE God.  The fact that John DIDN'T write “THE god” in part c tells us that John MEANT that the Word was A god…….. just like in Acts 12:22.

Do you understand this? Do you understand that the KJV translators ADDED the word “a”, forming the phrase “a god”, 36 times in their Bible?

Yet they didn't do it in John 1:1c. It is not because “a god” shouldn't be in 1:1c, journey. It is because these MEN who translated the KJV were Trinitarians, and although they knew that “a god” was meant by John, “God” fit their own “truth” better.

From Professor Jason BeDuhn, who I quoted in that last post:

“To me, it expresses a lack of courage, a fear that the Bible does not back up their ‘truth’ enough. To let the Bible have its say, regardless of how well or poorly that say conforms to expectations of accepted forms of modern Christianity is an exercise in courage or, to use another word for it, faith.”

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
For us there is one God.
For US

[mikeboll64]

You only quoted a part of the statement, Nick.

…as indeed there ARE many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth………. yet for us there is but one God, the Father………..

The point is that many gods do indeed exist – both in heaven and on the earth.  But for us, the metaphorical nation of Israel, there is only one of those many gods who is worthy of our worship and service.

See?  When you put it in CONTEXT, the true meaning is revealed.  The point is not that there LITERALLY exists only one god.  The point is that we (“US”) worship and serve only one of those MANY gods as “OUR God”.

We also serve His holy servant Jesus Christ, who Jehovah made both King and Lord over us.  But we don't worship the servant as we worship the God who created that servant.

And the fact that we only worship ONE god as “Our God” doesn't change the fact that many of that God's servants are themselves some of the other gods Paul mentioned.

The spirit sons of that one God we worship are also gods, Nick. Scripture tells us this fact. Jesus, as the firstborn of all those spirit sons of God, is called a god 5 times in scripture.

So Jesus definitely IS a god, and he is the god who was with “THE God” in the beginning. But he is not the Most High God he serves along with us – and is therefore not to be worshipped by us.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Jesus was never a god.

He became the Son of God.
The Word became flesh

[Wakeup]

Quote (carmel @ Mar. 31 2014,03:50)

Wakeup,Mar. wrote: [/quote] Quote Speaking of the resurrection. They are born of God's woman,she is spirit. Wakeup, WHERE IN SCRIPTURE WE CAN READ: THEY ARE BORN OF GOD'S WOMAN, SHE IS SPIRIT! DON'T KEEP BUILDING UP SUCH INVENTIONS! UP TO NOW YOU BUILT TWO: THE FIRST ONE WAS: THEY WERE BORN BY THE WILL OF GOD! Peace and love in Jesus Charles

Carmel.

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day?
***or shall a nation be born at once***?
***for as soon as Zion travailed, SHE brought forth her
children***.

TRAVAILED=TRIBULATION. AFTER THE TRIBULATION SHE
WILL GIVE BIRTH TO ALL HER CHILDREN.

ZION WILL GIVE BIRTH TO HER CHILDREN AT ONCE.
THIS IS AT THE RESURRECTION.
THIS IS BORN *ONCE MORE*.BORN AGAIN.

ZION, SHE IS SPIRIT AND HER CHILDREN WILL BE BORN SPIRIT.

wakeup.

[Wakeup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,07:40)

Hi MB, Jesus was never a god. He became the Son of God. The Word became flesh

Nick.

Why can you see, and understand,
and mike is still bogged down?

wakeup.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Try to see the work of God.
Making men gods is what the unbelievers did.

.Acts 14:11
And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

.Acts 17:18
Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Wakeup @ Mar. 30 2014,15:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2014,07:40) Hi MB, Jesus was never a god. He became the Son of God. The Word became flesh Nick. Why can you see, and understand, and mike is still bogged down? wakeup.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given……. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God………..

Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.”

1. Who is the son that is called “Mighty God” in Isaiah 9:6?

2. Who is the son that is called “O God” in Hebrews 1:8?

Nick makes a statement that directly CONTRADICTS these two SCRIPTURES. And Wakeup jumps on board with him and calls me “bogged down”.

How rich.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Try to see what our God has done through this man.
The rest is just distraction

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,15:25)

Hi MB, Try to see the work of God.

Nick,

Try to answer the 2 questions I asked in my last post. Oh, and answer them DIRECTLY.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,15:39)

Hi MB, Try to see what our God has done through this man. The rest is just distraction

Nick,

Try to answer those two questions. The rest of your words are just distractions.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
For us there is one God.

But you wish to speak of the other so called gods such as men and angels and lumps of wood and stone?

Why should we focus on your distractions.

[kerwin]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,08:05)

Hi KW, The Holy Spirit brings gifts. The Spirit of Christ manifested in the Prophets who were judged as clean by God. None received the Spirit of Christ under the new covenant till he returned to God and the Spirit was shared.

Nick,

Some of what you say is unclear. The prophets spoke the word of God as they were carried along by the Spirit. That is the gift the Spirit gave them. They were merely credited with righteousness for their faith but better things remain for those who live by the Spirit of Christ.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2014,15:44)

Hi MB, For us there is one God. But you wish to speak of the other so called gods such as men and angels and lumps of wood and stone? Why should we focus on your distractions.

You are the one trying to distract, Nick.

They are simple questions that anyone with a Bible can answer. So why can't you answer them?

Here they are again:

1. Who is the “god” in Isaiah 9:6?

2. Who is the “god” in Hebrews 1:8?

(Hint: This person is also called “son” in both of those verses. Does that help?)

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