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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:36) Mike, Quote or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.
I hope to look into it some more.
Note one source for corner stone.
Mike,This parallel is what I have found so far.
Ezra 3:10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,02:13) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:36) Mike, Quote or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.
I hope to look into it some more.
Note one source for corner stone.
Mike,This parallel is what I have found so far.
Ezra 3:10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
Mike,It seems to to be calling the head (cap) stone the corner stone.
Zechariah 4:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,02:21) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,02:13) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:36) Mike, Quote or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?It sounds like it is not the foundations but the cornerstone that is being laid as the stars sing and the sons shout.
I hope to look into it some more.
Note one source for corner stone.
Mike,This parallel is what I have found so far.
Ezra 3:10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the Lord, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
Mike,It seems to to be calling the head (cap) stone the corner stone.
Zechariah 4:7
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
Mike,And the last Scripture where that is done.
Psalm 118:22
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)22 The stone which the builders refused
is become the head stone of the corner.kerwin,Oct. wrote:[/quote]
Quote
That is where you are following a new religion that is not preached by Mosses, David, or the Prophets as there is only three testified as being present at the creation event and that is God who spoke his word, his spoken word by which all things that were created were created, and the Spirit that moved over the waters.Kerwin,
Read:
Genesis 2:2And the earth was void and empty, EMPTY OF GOD'S LOVE and darkness was upon the face of the deep; AND SATAN WAS IN CONTROL OVER THE DEEP HELL FIRE
and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
AND THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD MOVED IN CONTROL OVER ALL EARTH
3And God said: Be light made. And light was made.
AND GOD THE FATHER SAID HIS WORD: BE LIGHT MADE.
AND THE SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, EMANATED FROM THE FATHER, AND LIGHT WAS MADE.
John 1:In the beginning was the Word, ….BE LIGHT MADE
John 12:46 I am come a LIGHT into the world;…..
John 1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.
SO
THE HOLY SPIRIT MOVED,
THE FATHER SPOKE,
AND HIS WORD THE SON'S SPIRIT BECAME LIGHT!
SO WE ARE IN AGREEMENT: NO?
SINCE YOU COMMITTED YOURSELF AND SAID:
Quote there is only three testified as being present at the creation event and that is God who spoke his word, his spoken word by which all things that were created were created, and the Spirit that moved over the waters. THAT TO ME IS A CLEAR TRIUNE GOD IN FULL FUNCTION WHEN OUR CREATION WAS COMMENCED!
NOW THAT TRIUNE GOD: THE WORD THE SON’S SPIRIT, JESUS AS A SPIRIT IN FULL POWER OF GOD, THE ONLY MEDIATOR CREATOR GOD!
CREATED ALL OUR CREATION, THROUGH HIS OWN LIGHT WITHIN DARKNESS, THEREFORE GOOD AND EVIL
John 1:5 And the LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the LIGHT, and create DARKNESS, I make PEACE, and create EVIL : I the Lord that do all these things
SO TO CONCLUDE:
THE WORD WAS SPOKEN BY GOD, AND CAME OUT AS LIGHT!
THIS LIGHT CREATED OUR WORLD!
ON ACCOMPLISHING OUR WORLD !
THIS SAME LIGHT, BECAME FLESH AND THEN SPOKE AGAIN IN JESUS CHRIST THEREFORE BECAME AGAIN THE WORD BUT AS GOD AND MAN ! WORD OF THE FATHER AND LIGHT OF THE SON
SO FIRST THE WORD WAS THE SON IN THE FATHER, WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY:
THE FATHER IN HEAVEN! THE TRIUNE ALMIGHTY GOD!
THEN:
THE THE WORD WAS THE FATHER IN THE SON, WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY THE SON ON EARTH: THE ONLY TRIUNE MEDIATOR GOD!
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
JESUS CHRIST
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
Carmel,
Genesis 1:1-2
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
There was no light of any kind at that time and I doubt Satan was around yet as there was no light to see by. It is only after the majority of the foundation of earth are laid when the final corner capstone of the foundation is being laid that the sons of God and morning stars celebrate.
Satan was the chief of those morning stars for a time. His fall happened no later than when he chose to tempt Eve with evil and a time after he was created.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,04:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 19 2013,10:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,03:17) No Marty, The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.
(BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)
How do you answer those seven, Marty? How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?
All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.
But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”. It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.
It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty. That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.
Hi Mike, the Greek Word translated “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos”. Look up the meaning of the that word.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty, the spokesman for the King of Abyssinian was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.Does that mean Kal Hatze was literally a word that the king spoke? YES or NO?
If your answer is “NO” (as it sensibly should be), then tell me how defining the word “word” would be any kind of support for someone who is trying to convince me that Kal Hatze WAS in fact a literal word that the king spoke.
Do you understand? If it is said that God is the “head” of Jesus, would I be able to convince you that God is the literal head on Jesus' shoulders by telling you to look up the meaning of “head”? Of course not. So why then would you think your response above helps this discussion in any way – or proves your point?
Mike:I do not know what it means and I don't care. We were talking about the word “Logos” in John 1.
And I am sure that you would try to convince me that God is the literal head on the top of Jesus shoulders, by any means that you possibly could, but I am not gullible, and relative to the bible I don't have to ask you anything. I can ask God what He meant if I have a question about the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartyCarmel,
Quote AND THE SON'S SPIRIT, THE WORD, EMANATED FROM THE FATHER, AND LIGHT WAS MADE. So you are basically claiming the Word is the Holy Spirit.
You previously claimed the Jesus' soul was the Holy Spirit.
Quote THE HOLY SPIRIT MOVED, THE FATHER SPOKE,
AND HIS WORD THE SON'S SPIRIT BECAME LIGHT!
I agree the Spirit moved and God spoke and then there was light. I do not agree that God's spoken word literally transformed into light.
I do not agree that the Spirit is Jesus' soul.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:41) Jammin, Quote what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
that is not written in greek bible.
make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOLI obtained it in the way I said I did.
Since you missed it, I will go over it in more detail.
1 John 4:8 & 16 both state “God is love” but it is not to be understood literal as you in part understand the statement “the word is God”. Instead is declaring love is an aspect of God.
Applying the same scriptural pattern obtained from these two passages to the clause the word is God we come to understand that God is an aspect of his word.
To test this I asked is God an aspect of his word and the answer is yes as it is his word.
then give me a greek bible that says in john 1.1 that God is an aspect of the Word.ill give you 1million year to find one
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:50) Jammin, Quote bible scholars and translators said Word and not word in john 1.1 although some versions say word So you choose to put your trust in those men who translate it Word vs those who translate it word despite the fact you have already quoted Koine Greek, which has no capitals.
those men KNOW what they are doing.
you can never find an english bible with ALL SMALL LETTERS.translators know what they are doing. you are a pretender. you dont have knowledge about scriptures. you are nothing kerwin. you are a false teacher.
Quote (jammin @ Oct. 20 2013,12:16) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 20 2013,01:41) Jammin, Quote what??? GOD is an aspect of the WORD? where did you get that??
that is not written in greek bible.
make your own bible and revised john 1.1 LOLI obtained it in the way I said I did.
Since you missed it, I will go over it in more detail.
1 John 4:8 & 16 both state “God is love” but it is not to be understood literal as you in part understand the statement “the word is God”. Instead is declaring love is an aspect of God.
Applying the same scriptural pattern obtained from these two passages to the clause the word is God we come to understand that God is an aspect of his word.
To test this I asked is God an aspect of his word and the answer is yes as it is his word.
then give me a greek bible that says in john 1.1 that God is an aspect of the Word.ill give you 1million year to find one
Jammin,I pointed out how the AKJV does and you chose to disbelieve without giving a logical reason, or any reason at all.
But you have already revealed you choose to put your faith in mere men and what and there translations and interpretations. Let us point to one these mere men that is a Trinitarian and with whose teachings I disagree.
His credentials by the education establishment's criteria.
Quote Thomas Talbott is Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Willamette University, Salem, Oregon. He is best known for his advocacy of Trinitarian Universalism. 1 His claim about the statement God is love.
Quote Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2 This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means. I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.
Quote Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render part of the verse as “…and the Word was divine.”3 Quote James Moffatt (1870-1944) was a theologian and graduate of Glasgow University. Moffatt trained at the Free Church College, Glasgow, and was a practising minister before becoming Professor of Greek and New Testament Exegesis at Mansfield College, Oxford in 1911. 4 Quote Hugh Joseph Schonfield (London, 17 May 1901 – January 24, 1988, London) was a British Bible scholar specializing in the New Testament and the early development of the Christian religion and church. 5 1) Thomas Talbott
2) Talbott quote is from Fire in the Bones blog
3) Quote about John 1:1 translations.
4) James Moffatt
5) Hugh J. SchonfieldKerwin,
I'm not sure anymore what we're even talking about. I thought I was showing you that the earth was already there when God said, “Let there be light”, and that the angels must have also been there since they shouted for joy when God laid the foundations of the earth.
I can't make heads or tails out of your recent comments concerning this topic. But I haven't seen anything in your posts that would change my mind – or change the fact that my understanding is clearly spelled out in the scriptures.
kerwin
Quote Conversely, Thomas B. Talbott points to “God is Love” (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16), meaning not merely that God “happens to love,” but rather that love is an essential aspect of God. Talbott uses this to defend Universalism because God must be loving in all God's acts, precluding eternal damnation. 2 This mere man agrees with me about what the statement “God is love” means. I used the scriptural pattern from it and on the statement “the word was God” and then voiced my conclusion that God is an aspect of the word.
the expression that “GOD IS LOVE ” MEANS ACCORDING TO MY UNDERSTANDING IN THE SCRIPTURES ;THAT ALL WHAT GOD DOES IS DONE OUT OF LOVE FOR THE BEINGS HE HAS CREATED ,AND NOT FOR THEIR DOOM,LOVE BEING ONLY ONE OF GOD'S QUALITIES,RIGHTEOUSNESS BEING ANOTHER ONE ,SO IS FAITHFUL AND MANY MORE ,
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,04:33) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 19 2013,10:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,03:17) No Marty, The CONFUSION comes when you let your personal wishes override your ability to understand and believe the seven points I listed in my last post.
(BTW, I only listed seven, but there are dozens of other ones.)
How do you answer those seven, Marty? How do you show me I'm wrong in noticing that all the things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”?
All you have is your fallback nonsense, “Mike, the Word PERTAINS TO Jesus, but isn't actually Jesus.”.
But it has got to be hard for you to continue this denial when the very things said about “the Word” are also said about “Jesus”. It's got to be taxing on your mind to continue to force yourself to accept that “God Almighty Himself” could have been WITH “God Almighty Himself” in the beginning.
It's too bad that you will stick with your denial, Marty. That denial causes you to miss so much of what Jesus actually sacrificed for us.
Hi Mike, the Greek Word translated “the Word” in John 1 is “Logos”. Look up the meaning of the that word.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty, the spokesman for the King of Abyssinian was called Kal Hatze – which means “the word of the king”.Does that mean Kal Hatze was literally a word that the king spoke? YES or NO?
If your answer is “NO” (as it sensibly should be), then tell me how defining the word “word” would be any kind of support for someone who is trying to convince me that Kal Hatze WAS in fact a literal word that the king spoke.
Do you understand? If it is said that God is the “head” of Jesus, would I be able to convince you that God is the literal head on Jesus' shoulders by telling you to look up the meaning of “head”? Of course not. So why then would you think your response above helps this discussion in any way – or proves your point?
Jesus is the voice of the King, that is of God, but he did not exist as a sentient person prior to being born into this world. The scripture states that God spoke to humanity through him in these last days not before.Quote
Hbr 1:1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
“Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.
And so, Yes, understanding the definition of the Greek Word “Logos” will help you to understand this. The bible manuscripts used to translate our English bible were written in Greek.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty
Hbr 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
this is your quoted scripture just look at it ; by whom also he made the worlds
WHEN DID GOD MADE THE WORLD THROUGH CHRIST
?Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with “THE ALMIGHTY ONE, and the Word was A MIGHTY ONE.
Jn 1:2 He was with “THE ALMIGHTY ONE ” in the beginning.
Jn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.IT SEEMS THAT ALL THE SCRIPTURES ARE BINDING TOGETHER AS ONE
Mike,
This is what I was going to post on the other page as 'wondering' but I cannot find posts there, so I will put it here instead, as my reply.Mike, you know, I do not agree with most of the trinitarians in full, though I do in part. I also agree with part of what arians say but a big part I do not. I am however closer now to trinitarians and unitarians… well at least the unitarians who believe the Holy Spirit is God, or part of God.
I 100% believe, as God has shown me, that “In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God”. It cannot take my mind to understand it -because it takes the spirit to agree with it. Just as it does not take a scholars degree, nor the study of Greek or Hebrew. God spoke so that almost everybody could understand and reveled things to babes.I also believe, unlike the trinitarians, that the word was God's spoken word, and not another being, as can be seen with creation when God spoke, and the spirit moved. So there we have God and his spirit alone in creation, that being our one God, and the “us”.
And I am not alone in this. Even an early church father Irenaeus, the only one that i have seen writing specifically on John 1:1 writes in agreement when he says:
Quote “The world was not formed by angels, or by any other being, contrary to the will of the most high God, but was made by the Father through the Word.” Unquote.
(“The word” being not another being – but God's spoken word)
Quote “For this is a peculiarity of the pre-
eminence of God , not to stand in need of other instruments for the creation of those things which are summoned into existence .
His own Word is both suitable and
sufficient for the formation of all things, even as John, the disciple of the Lord, declares regarding Him: “All things were made by Him, and without Him was nothing made.” John 1:3 Now, among the “all things” our world must be embraced. It
too, therefore, was made by His Word, as Scripture tells us in the book of Genesis that He made all things connected with our
world by His Word. David also expresses the same truth [when he says] “For He spoke, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” Whom, therefore, shall we believe as to the creation of the world— these heretics who have been mentioned that prate so foolishly and inconsistently on
the subject, or the disciples of the Lord, and Moses , who was both a faithful servant of God and a prophet ? He at first narrated the
formation of the world in these words: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” Genesis 1:1 and all other things
in succession; but neither gods nor angels [had any share in the work].
Now, that this God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Paul the apostle also has declared, [saying,] “There is one God, the Father, who is above all, and through all things, and in us all.” I have indeed proved
already that there is only one God ; but I shall further demonstrate this from the apostles themselves, and from the discourses of the Lord. For what sort of conduct would it be, were we to forsake the utterances of
the prophets, of the Lord, and of the
apostles , that we might give heed to these persons , who speak not a word of sense?” (Unquote)See how there, he speaks of only one God and his spoken word.
Not that I go to the writings of those men to learn anything, because I do not.
To me, they are no different than todays philosophers.To me, a spirit filled writing is the shepherd of Hermas and what was the Shepherd's christology is exactly what I believe. Except, in Hermas, the Holy Spirit was the son of God which may be true. And he became one with the son of man, just as I believe.
And Hermas was originally canon, until they took it out, and they did not take it out because of its 'spirit christology' – but due to its harsher words regarding sin and forgiveness. It was one of the most popular writings in the earliest church, and was read outloud in church. Nobody had a problem it seemed with the Holy Spirit being the son, and the son of man being a man (the two sons of God who became one).But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.
And you know this would go on and on and on and on.Hi Pierre:
I have looked at this scripture, and let us look at it again:
Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
It states “by whom He(God) has made the worlds, and the “by whom” refers to the Son that He (God has spoken to humanity in these last days”)
God did not speak to humanity through Jesus until he came in His ministry, but God created everything that He created knowing that He would send Jesus forth into the world at this time to fulfill his purpose for this world and for humanity, and that is what is meant that God created every thing that he created every thing that he created by him and for him. God knew of this event from the beginning. Jesus was foreordained.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Oct. 20 2013,14:19) “Logos” by definition is not a person, but are the sayings of God which embody God's plan for humanity and reveal to humanity His Character.
The same as in English, “word” is by definition not normally a person. But if a spokesman is called by the title “the word of the king”, it does refer to a person.In Revelation, Jesus is called “the Word of God”. Does “logos” refer to a person in that verse?
Marty,
The words plainly say “through whom He created the ages”. You are right that these words are about “the Son” as is clearly taught in that very passage.
So if the ages were made through the Son, then the Son must have existed to have the ages made through him.
That is the SENSIBLE understanding of the words. Your “explanation” borders on the unintelligible and nonsensical.
I will stick with the intelligent and logical way of understanding those very clear words. You may choose to understand them any way you like.
Quote (2besee @ Oct. 20 2013,16:10) But you know what I believe, Mike. And I know what you believe.
Who do you think the “US” is in Gen 1:26, 2B? I wonder who Irenaeus thought the “US” was.
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