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Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,20:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:39) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:58) T, That is a Spiritual body not a spirit body.
Kerwin,Do you accept the fact that “belonging to a spirit” is one of the definitions of “spiritual”?
Mike,Yes, it is as belonging to spirit and belonging to the Spirit are basically the same definition.
In scripture when the context is natural verses spirit the application definition is Spirit. I know of no exception even when taking in account synonyms of natural.
Paul did not use an example of a spirit body.
Kerwin,Your ultimate claim is that angels of God exist in heaven within FLESH bodies.
You might be on your own with that one, partner. But either way, I find the idea ludicrous, and unworthy of further examination.
I will leave you to your beliefs on this one.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,21:01) Mike, Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,02:49) Have you considered that you are used to the words of Trinitarians and those who have not yet won completely free of the influence of that erroneous teaching? These words are neither an insult or a direct accusation. At the most it is accusing you of basing your teaching on the false knowledge of a preexistence Christ that originates in Trinitarian teachings.
My beliefs in the pre-existence of Jesus stem from scriptures, Kerwin…………. not from any Trinitarian.Instead of CONTIUNING to make this discussion about Trinitarian beliefs, why not instead ADDRESS the points I made in the 8th and 9th post on page 988?
The things I listed in those posts are some of the reasons I believe Jesus pre-existed. And those things are in the SCRIPTURES………. which is why I believe them.
My beliefs about Jesus have NOTHING to do with the comically flawed beliefs of the Trinitarians. So let that “diversion tactic” go and address the actual scriptural points I made.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,04:46) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,21:01) Mike, Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,02:49) Have you considered that you are used to the words of Trinitarians and those who have not yet won completely free of the influence of that erroneous teaching? These words are neither an insult or a direct accusation. At the most it is accusing you of basing your teaching on the false knowledge of a preexistence Christ that originates in Trinitarian teachings.
My beliefs in the pre-existence of Jesus stem from scriptures, Kerwin…………. not from any Trinitarian.Instead of CONTIUNING to make this discussion about Trinitarian beliefs, why not instead ADDRESS the points I made in the 8th and 9th post on page 988?
The things I listed in those posts are some of the reasons I believe Jesus pre-existed. And those things are in the SCRIPTURES………. which is why I believe them.
My beliefs about Jesus have NOTHING to do with the comically flawed beliefs of the Trinitarians. So let that “diversion tactic” go and address the actual scriptural points I made.
Mike,So your opinion on this matter differs from mine. My warning is issued as I was instructed to do. It is your job to test yourself and in doing so you believe my opinion is in error.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,04:37) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,20:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:39) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:58) T, That is a Spiritual body not a spirit body.
Kerwin,Do you accept the fact that “belonging to a spirit” is one of the definitions of “spiritual”?
Mike,Yes, it is as belonging to spirit and belonging to the Spirit are basically the same definition.
In scripture when the context is natural verses spirit the application definition is Spirit. I know of no exception even when taking in account synonyms of natural.
Paul did not use an example of a spirit body.
Kerwin,Your ultimate claim is that angels of God exist in heaven within FLESH bodies.
You might be on your own with that one, partner. But either way, I find the idea ludicrous, and unworthy of further examination.
I will leave you to your beliefs on this one.
Mike,The most I can say is that angels have physical bodies that Scripture does not say differ from immortal flesh and bone bodies.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,04:34) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,20:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45) According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….
Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.
Mike,Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.
Like I said, Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture. What he DID say was that spirits don't have FLESH.So not only are you forcing your own imaginations to come out of Jesus' mouth, but in the process you are totally IGNORING the things that actually DID come out of his mouth.
Mike,After he did that he set out to prove that he was not a spirit.
Luke 24:39
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Handle me and see that he had flesh and bone. If any spirit could be handled then Jesus' test would be flawed.
Luke 24:41
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
The same thing is true for this one.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,11:56) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,10:27) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,10:00) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2013,08:32) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,08:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:38) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2013,12:45) According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat……….
Jesus says neither of those things in any scripture.
Mike,Then you have not yet come to the point where you understand in proposing those two tests to prove he was not a spirit he revealed that spirits can neither be touched or eat.
kso what would you say the word SPIRIT stands for
T,I am not sure what you are saying but I will guess and say the evidence supports the idea Jesus was speaking of immaterial beings.
Test you teachings about angels.
Since angels are ministering spirits cannot mean they are creatures composed of spirit as it would cause Scripture to be broken.
Another definition of spirit that fits the context is required. In English “the inner quality or nature of a person” would fit the requirement.
I saw no other English definition that both seemed significantly different and that can apply. Perhaps you do.
Note:
Spirit at Merriam-Webster's online dictionary.
Kok,so what you think PAUL MEANT WHEN HE SAYS “SPIRITUAL BODY”
T,He means Spiritual body where Spiritual is relating to the Spirit of God.
klike in what scripture ,do you thinking of
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,17:19) ……for a spirit hath not flesh……..
Hebrews 1:7
In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Angels are spirits (spirit beings). And spirits don't have flesh.
Kerwin,
I REALLY want you to address the 8th and 9th post on page 988.
Show me from scripture where I'm wrong on any of my proofs.
Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 24 2013,15:43) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,05:45) Quote (Wakeup @ Sep. 23 2013,14:49) Kerwin. Still waiting for your evidence,
of angels of different flesh.Wakeup.
Wakeup,According to Jesus spirits can neither be touched or eat while angels do both. For you to be correct either Jesus is wrong or the accounts about angels being touching or eating are. Neither of them are wrong.
Angels do not transform to human beings and they are already there and you will see them if God chooses to open your eyes to see them. He has even chosen to allow one creature see them while the second's eyes remain closed to their presence, Balaam and his donkey.
Kerwin.That's where the word *translate* comes in.
Why is it not impossible for you to accept that the Word
is made flesh?Do you really think that Jesus will have his nail marks
and his spear mark,and the stripes on his back for ever and ever? Plus his nose was also broken.The two prophets were translated into some other dimension.
And in in the last days they will be translated back
into their flesh body.Moses and Elijah.rev11.wakeup.
Wakeup,I find it hard to believe your claim because it breaks Scripture. I certainly do believe the Word of God was made flesh in Jesus. Jesus, a being, has inherited the position the Word occupied before he was conceived in his mother's womb.
I believe that all things are possible by God and he gave Jesus the body he chose to give him even to the marks of the wounds you describe. If God so chooses Jesus will become as a man whose body bears no blemish.
Moses and Elijah both appeared to have flesh bodies when they appeared on the mount with Jesus as the disciples proposed building tents for them reveals.
Mike,
Quote 1. The word “logos” is personified in John 1:1. That same word “logos” is personified by the same author in Revelation 19:13. In the latter, the “logos” is personified as Jesus Christ.
2. The personified “logos” of John 1 was with God in the beginning, then was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
With you to this point.
Quote According to Phil 2 and other scriptures, Jesus Christ was existing with God in the beginning, then was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. That is not what I hear from Philippians 2.
Quote 3. The personified “logos” of John 1 is closely associated with “light”. Jesus Christ is the “light” that came into the world.
4. The personified “logos” of John 1 was testified about by John the Baptist.
Jesus Christ is the sole person John the Baptist was sent to testify about.
I agree with your words but probably not all of your intent.
Quote 5. All things were made through the personified “logos” of John 1. All things were made through Jesus – according to at least three other scriptures.
John 1:3 is literaly true as the whole story of creation reveals it was made by God's Word. That idea is echoed in other passages.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 25 2013,05:35) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,17:19) ……for a spirit hath not flesh……..
Hebrews 1:7
In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Angels are spirits (spirit beings). And spirits don't have flesh.
Mike,God does make his messengers wind and his servants flames of fire.
Angels are do have the ministering “inner quality or nature”
Jesus' tests are both sound and valid to reveal he was not a spirit.
Note: Quote from Merriam-Webster online dictionary entry for spirit.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,18:28) Angels are do have the ministering “inner quality or nature”
Does it say angels ARE ministering spirits? Or angels HAVE ministering spirits?Kerwin, I'm done with this nonsense. If you want to think angels have flesh in heaven, then I'll just roll my eyes and leave you to it.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,18:17) Mike, Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1. The word “logos” is personified in John 1:1. That same word “logos” is personified by the same author in Revelation 19:13. In the latter, the “logos” is personified as Jesus Christ.
2. The personified “logos” of John 1 was with God in the beginning, then was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
With you to this point.
Good. We have a starting point.Now, if we both know the personified logos is JESUS in Revelation 19:13, then isn't there a good chance that the same exact author personified the same exact word referring to the same exact person in one or more of his other books?
Of course there is.
As for point #2 above, who else is ever said to have dwelled as flesh on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son EXCEPT FOR Jesus Christ?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,18:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 3. The personified “logos” of John 1 is closely associated with “light”. Jesus Christ is the “light” that came into the world.
4. The personified “logos” of John 1 was testified about by John the Baptist.
Jesus Christ is the sole person John the Baptist was sent to testify about.
I agree with your words but probably not all of your intent.
If you agree with the words that John wrote, then what other “intent” could there be?If the personified logos was “the true light that gives light to everyone”, and Jesus was “the light that has come into the world”, then what is so hard?
If John the Baptist was sent to testify about none other than the personified logos, and John the Baptist was sent to testify about none other than Jesus Christ – where is the dilemma?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,18:17) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 5. All things were made through the personified “logos” of John 1. All things were made through Jesus – according to at least three other scriptures.
John 1:3 is literaly true as the whole story of creation reveals it was made by God's Word. That idea is echoed in other passages.
So your OPINION (personal WISH) is that we can read John 1:3 literally, and know that God created all things through the Word. But we CAN'T read Col 1:16, Hebrews 1:2, and 1 Cor 8:6 – which say that God created all things through Jesus Christ – in the same literal manner?Isn't that a little biased, Kerwin? It's like you're saying that since you WANT to believe John 1:3, you will. But since you DON'T WANT to believe what is taught in those other three scriptures, you won't.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2013,18:17) Quote According to Phil 2 and other scriptures, Jesus Christ was existing with God in the beginning, then was made flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son. That is not what I hear from Philippians 2.
Okay. Why not hurry up and answer the 8th post on page 988 for me, and then we can discuss Phil 2 a little more in depth?Perhaps together, we can get that stoppage out of your ear, so you CAN hear what is really said in Phil 2.
not yet done??
kerwin why cant you accept that the word in john 1.1 is christ?
may GOD open your eyes
Quote (jammin @ Sep. 25 2013,13:54) not yet done?? kerwin why cant you accept that the word in john 1.1 is christ?
may GOD open your eyes
That's true jammin.
But let's refine that statement.
The Word came down to earth and was made flesh,
and he was called Jesus.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 24 2013,06:20) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,18:32) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 23 2013,02:04) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 22 2013,00:41) In English Jesus took on the form of a servant and God made him in the form of a human.
In English, Jesus first EMPTIED HIMSELF…………. and then was made in the form of a human.One cannot EMPTY HIMSELF before he exists. Therefore, Jesus existed BEFORE he was made in the form of a human.
Mike,For that to be clear there would need to be a then in the statement. As it is “made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” all appear to have happened at approximately the same time. Nothing indicating time is mentioned………….
Oh yes it is, Kerwin!1. Existing in the form of God. Didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped……….
2. BUT…… emptied himself, took on the form of a servant, was made in the likeness of a human being.
Do you see the word “BUT”? That means he was existing and considering things (part 1) BEFORE he emptied himself and was made as a man.
People who don't exist can't be said to be “existing”. Nor can one who doesn't yet exist “consider” anything.
So now you know that time IS indicated. What do you say?
Mike,Living by the Spirit of God he did not see equality with God as something to be grasped but emptied himself and took on the form of a servant.
There is no preexistence there though it has the same “but” you speak of.
He emptied himself of the desire to be equal to God.
mikeboll64,Sep. wrote:[/quote]
Quote Kerwin, I'm done with this nonsense. If you want to think angels have flesh in heaven, then I'll just roll my eyes and leave you to it. Mike,
I AGREE WITH YOU !
ONLY JESUS CHRIST OWNS BOTH SPIRIT AND FLESH BODY AS ONE SUBSTANCE, AND HE CAN MANIFEST HIMSELF IN ANY STATE HE PREFERS NO MATTER WHERE!
HE WENT DOWN TO HELL THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT,HIS SOUL, IN FLESH SUBSTANCE AND PROVED HIMSELF TO ALL HIS ENEMIES THAT HE HAD GLORIFIED!
THEY STILL DIDN'T BELIEVE, SINCE HE WAS IN HIS GRAVE IN FLESH FORM WITHIN THE SPIRITUAL PROCESS OF HIS BODY!
THEN JESUS, AFTER SIX IN THE EVENING UNITED BOTH HIS SOUL, AND HIS ALREADY RESURRECTED BODY AS ONE ENTITY FOR ETERNITY, AND BECAME :
THE ONLY TRUE GOD,(SPIRIT) AND JESUS CHRIST(FLESH)
THEREFORE THE FATHER ALSO BECAME THE ONLY TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, SINCE THE FATHER AND THE SON ARE ONE SUBSTANCE! ONE GOD!
THEN ON THE LAST DAY, AEONS AND AEONS OF TIME, THE SON PASS ALL TO HIS FATHER, AND THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL IN ALL AND THE SON WOULD BE IN HIS FATHER AS HE WAS BEFORE CREATION!
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.
Peace and love in Jesus
Charles
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