JOHN 1:1 who is the WORD?

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2013,18:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2013,05:01)

Okay Kerwin. Now we're finally getting somewhere.

WHAT exactly IS that word from Heb 11:3 – the one that is “more than just spoken or written communications” then?

Mike,

A man's word is spoken or written while God's Word creates as well as serves as communications. A man's word does not create.

So are you saying that the Word of God is an entity INDIVIDUAL FROM God Himself? And when God speaks, He is actually commanding this INDIVIDUAL ENTITY to go and create things?

Or are you saying that God can speak a regular old word out of His mouth, and the things He spoke come to be?

Which one?

Because if it is the former, then God's Word as an individual entity would align with Jesus being that entity.

And if the latter, then you've only shown that when God speaks a word, what He spoke comes to be. And in that case, “word” still only refers to a word that God spoke, and nothing more.

Mike,

Only in the poetic sense is the Word an individual. In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Note: Regular as opposed to a word that is an individual.

August 25, 2013 at 1:22 am#356105

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,02:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2013,18:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2013,05:01)

Okay Kerwin. Now we're finally getting somewhere.

WHAT exactly IS that word from Heb 11:3 – the one that is “more than just spoken or written communications” then?

Mike,

A man's word is spoken or written while God's Word creates as well as serves as communications. A man's word does not create.

So are you saying that the Word of God is an entity INDIVIDUAL FROM God Himself? And when God speaks, He is actually commanding this INDIVIDUAL ENTITY to go and create things?

Or are you saying that God can speak a regular old word out of His mouth, and the things He spoke come to be?

Which one?

Because if it is the former, then God's Word as an individual entity would align with Jesus being that entity.

And if the latter, then you've only shown that when God speaks a word, what He spoke comes to be. And in that case, “word” still only refers to a word that God spoke, and nothing more.

Mike,

Only in the poetic sense is the Word an individual. In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Note: Regular as opposed to a word that is an individual.

Kerwin

this is chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

August 25, 2013 at 2:10 am#356106

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,02:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2013,18:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2013,05:01)

Okay Kerwin. Now we're finally getting somewhere.

WHAT exactly IS that word from Heb 11:3 – the one that is “more than just spoken or written communications” then?

Mike,

A man's word is spoken or written while God's Word creates as well as serves as communications. A man's word does not create.

So are you saying that the Word of God is an entity INDIVIDUAL FROM God Himself? And when God speaks, He is actually commanding this INDIVIDUAL ENTITY to go and create things?

Or are you saying that God can speak a regular old word out of His mouth, and the things He spoke come to be?

Which one?

Because if it is the former, then God's Word as an individual entity would align with Jesus being that entity.

And if the latter, then you've only shown that when God speaks a word, what He spoke comes to be. And in that case, “word” still only refers to a word that God spoke, and nothing more.

Mike,

Only in the poetic sense is the Word an individual. In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Note: Regular as opposed to a word that is an individual.

Kerwin

this is chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

He is the sound that is not a sound. He is embodied in different media, including that of sound. He created the Sun and the Moon. He gathered the waters in one place. He created light and all its rules. Who is he?

August 25, 2013 at 6:12 am#356123

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,08:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,02:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2013,18:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2013,05:01)

Okay Kerwin. Now we're finally getting somewhere.

WHAT exactly IS that word from Heb 11:3 – the one that is “more than just spoken or written communications” then?

Mike,

A man's word is spoken or written while God's Word creates as well as serves as communications. A man's word does not create.

So are you saying that the Word of God is an entity INDIVIDUAL FROM God Himself? And when God speaks, He is actually commanding this INDIVIDUAL ENTITY to go and create things?

Or are you saying that God can speak a regular old word out of His mouth, and the things He spoke come to be?

Which one?

Because if it is the former, then God's Word as an individual entity would align with Jesus being that entity.

And if the latter, then you've only shown that when God speaks a word, what He spoke comes to be. And in that case, “word” still only refers to a word that God spoke, and nothing more.

Mike,

Only in the poetic sense is the Word an individual. In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Note: Regular as opposed to a word that is an individual.

Kerwin

this is chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

kERWIN

Colossians 1:15 Click this icon to open a printer friendly page
Context
NET ©
1 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn 2 over all creation, 3
NIV ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NASB ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
NLT ©
Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.
MSG ©
We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God's original purpose in everything created.
BBE ©
Who is the image of the unseen God coming into existence before all living things;
NRSV ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
NKJV ©
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

is this poetic or plain words spoken by paul to the congregation of Colosse

August 25, 2013 at 5:07 pm#356152

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2013,14:59)

In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Very well then. In that case, you have yet to produce a scripture where “word” means something other than a regular old word written or spoken by anyone.

You have applied “magical abilities” to simple words that God spoke – as if the words themselves are individual entities who go out and do what God told them to do.

In reality, I've noticed MANY times in the OT where a man clearly THOUGHT something in his head, but in Hebrew, they write it as “he SAID”.

There are many examples, but this one should give you an idea. It seems obvious that Samuel didn't just blurt out these words he was thinking, and so most translations render the Hebrew “said” as “said to himself” or “thought”.

Are you with me so far?

That being the case, when scripture says, “And God said 'Let there be light' “, He didn't necessarily say these words out loud. Instead, He could have just THOUGHT light into existence. In other words, “Let there be light” does NOT describe God giving a commission to one of His words, and then that word going out and creating light for Him.

So here's the deal: “The Word” is obviously personified in John 1:1, 1:14; 1 John 1:1-2; and Revelation 19:13. It is easy to see from those scripture that this particular “Word” is actually the title for a BEING. And it is abundantly clear from Rev 19:13 that the BEING who holds this TITLE is none other than Jesus Christ – the rider of the white horse.

But you guys don't WANT Jesus Christ to be the BEING who holds that same title in John 1 and 1 John 1. So you've invented some magical entity that is the word of God, and have applied this magical entity to every instance of “word of God” in the scriptures.

That way, when the word of God came to, say, Isaiah, you've imagined that some spiritual entity was SENT out from God to go and visit Isaiah……… when in reality the phrase “the word of God came to Isaiah, saying….” is really only telling us that God said some things to Isaiah via dream, vision, angel, or some other means.

Get it? “The word of God” in those cases merely represents the things that God told Isaiah – or whomever. “The word of God” in those cases does NOT represent some magical BEING that came to Isaiah and told him things. It only represents words that God somehow communicated to Isaiah – or whomever.

So now, back to John 1………….

In this case, the Word of God was WITH God in the beginning. This obviously DOESN'T speak of a regular old word that God communicates to someone. And this particular Word BECAME FLESH. So again, this wouldn't convey a regular old word that God spoke – but clearly an ENTITY that wasn't flesh, but then became flesh and dwelled on earth as a BEING who had the glory of God's only begotten Son.

And the bottom line is that just because John 1 and a few other scriptures identify a SPOKESMAN of God who wasn't flesh, but then became flesh, it does not mean that “the word of God” is some individual entity in all of those other cases.

See? What you guys have done is make the word of God ALWAYS be some individual entity thing to account for the fact that it is indeed an individual entity thing in John 1 and a few other scriptures.

Do you understand what I'm saying? Because you don't LIKE the outcome of “the Word” being an individual entity only in John 1 and a few other verses – because you KNOW what that would imply – you've imagined for yourselves a “word of God” that is ALWAYS some “magical entity thingy” in EVERY scripture.

And that is how you were able to make the asinine challenge to jammin that he needs to insert “Christ” into every scripture where “word of God” is written.

But the fact is that “word of God” ALMOST ALWAYS refers only to a regular old word that was written, spoken, or even thought. And only in a very few cases does “Word of God” refer to Jesus Christ as the main spokesman for God.

And this, my friend, is why you and Marty are unable to produce any scripture where “word of God” DOESN'T refer simply to a word that was spoken, written, or thought by God. Because that phrase ALWAYS only refers to a word that was spoken, written, or thought by God except for the five or six times in scripture when it represents the TITLE for God's SPOKESMAN Jesus Christ.

August 25, 2013 at 6:23 pm#356160

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,12:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,08:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,02:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2013,18:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2013,05:01)

Okay Kerwin. Now we're finally getting somewhere.

WHAT exactly IS that word from Heb 11:3 – the one that is “more than just spoken or written communications” then?

Mike,

A man's word is spoken or written while God's Word creates as well as serves as communications. A man's word does not create.

So are you saying that the Word of God is an entity INDIVIDUAL FROM God Himself? And when God speaks, He is actually commanding this INDIVIDUAL ENTITY to go and create things?

Or are you saying that God can speak a regular old word out of His mouth, and the things He spoke come to be?

Which one?

Because if it is the former, then God's Word as an individual entity would align with Jesus being that entity.

And if the latter, then you've only shown that when God speaks a word, what He spoke comes to be. And in that case, “word” still only refers to a word that God spoke, and nothing more.

Mike,

Only in the poetic sense is the Word an individual. In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Note: Regular as opposed to a word that is an individual.

Kerwin

this is chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

kERWIN

is this poetic or plain words spoken by paul to the congregation of Colosse

Poetic.

August 25, 2013 at 6:32 pm#356161

Participant

Mike,

Quote

You have applied “magical abilities” to simple words that God spoke – as if the words themselves are individual entities who go out and do what God told them to do.

God speaks his Word to a bunch of earth and it is transformed to a human body.
A human us a device on a lump of clay and it is transformed into a vessel.

The Word made the human body in the same way the device made the vessel.

August 25, 2013 at 6:54 pm#356164

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike………GOD spoke to Isaiah BUY imputing “HIS” WORDS into his MIND, WORDS ARE DRIVED FROM THOUGHTS, the same way He spoke to the Prophets and the same way He spoke to and through Jesus. GOD is A SPIRIT and can in dwell a person AND RELAY “HIS” THOUGHT TO THAT PERSON WHICH ARE HIS WORDS, WHY BECAUSE THOUSE WORDS COME FROM THOUGHTS WHICH ARE SPIRIT.

JOHN 1:1 has nothing to do A TITLE of ANYONE , it just is saying GOD and HIS OWN WORDS ARE ONE AND THE SAME THING , JUST AS YOU AND YOUR WORDS ARE THE SAME THING. NOthing complicated about it at all. So why try to complicate a simple straight forward scripture to meet you personal Dogmas.

Remember when Jesus told his disciples not to mediate before hand what they are to say when brought before magistrates, because it would be given then that very hour what to say, and it would not be them speaking but the Spirit of God “SPEAKING” in there hearts and through them. You may call that magic but what Jesus said is still true.

AS far as any word goes they ALL ORIGINATE IN THE MIND even the Words of GOD. trying to separate this simple common knowledge and make a word and the person who spoke it different unless they were quoting someone as Jesus said he was , is nothing more the human Carmel reasoning , trying to force a text to imply what in fact it does not is where MYSTERY RELIGION comes to play. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

August 25, 2013 at 11:58 pm#356206

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,12:32)

The Word made the human body in the same way the device made the vessel.

No Kerwin.

The word was nothing but a word. God is who made the human body.

And the device is nothing more than a device. The human who used the device is the one who made the vessel.

Devices don't have minds and wills of their own, so that they can go and create vessels all by themselves when told to do so.

Nor do the words that God speaks have minds and wills of their own, so that they can go and create human bodies all by themselves after being told to do so.

You are applying magical abilities to devices and words – but devices and words don't really have those abilities.

Can you understand that?

August 26, 2013 at 9:52 pm#356254

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2013,10:58)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,12:32)

The Word made the human body in the same way the device made the vessel.

No Kerwin.

The word was nothing but a word. God is who made the human body.

No Mike! It is the word “Logos” which in Hellenist thought denoted the Supreme Being. John was writing to Hellenists.

August 26, 2013 at 11:16 pm#356265

Blocked

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 26 2013,15:52)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2013,10:58)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,12:32)

The Word made the human body in the same way the device made the vessel.

No Kerwin.

The word was nothing but a word. God is who made the human body.

No Mike! It is the word “Logos” which in Hellenist thought denoted the Supreme Being. John was writing to Hellenists.

So the Word OF God is the Supreme Being OF the Supreme Being?

Jack, the challenge is out there to show me scriptures where “word” means something other than a regular old word that was written, spoken, or thought by someone.

I have listed John 1:1, 1:14, 1 John 1:1-2, Revelation 19:13, and possibly Hebrews 11:3 as times when “word” refers to the title of a spokesman, and not to a literal word.

Could you list another scripture where “word” doesn't mean “word”?

(BTW, I'm glad to see your signature is still the same after all these years! People are still able to read that and know that you are a little slower than most. )

August 27, 2013 at 12:32 am#356276

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2013,00:23)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,12:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,08:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,02:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 24 2013,23:05)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 23 2013,18:43)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 22 2013,05:01)

Okay Kerwin. Now we're finally getting somewhere.

WHAT exactly IS that word from Heb 11:3 – the one that is “more than just spoken or written communications” then?

Mike,

A man's word is spoken or written while God's Word creates as well as serves as communications. A man's word does not create.

So are you saying that the Word of God is an entity INDIVIDUAL FROM God Himself? And when God speaks, He is actually commanding this INDIVIDUAL ENTITY to go and create things?

Or are you saying that God can speak a regular old word out of His mouth, and the things He spoke come to be?

Which one?

Because if it is the former, then God's Word as an individual entity would align with Jesus being that entity.

And if the latter, then you've only shown that when God speaks a word, what He spoke comes to be. And in that case, “word” still only refers to a word that God spoke, and nothing more.

Mike,

Only in the poetic sense is the Word an individual. In the non poetic sense God speaks a “regular” word and the physical laws are established.

Note: Regular as opposed to a word that is an individual.

Kerwin

this is chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

kERWIN

is this poetic or plain words spoken by paul to the congregation of Colosse

Poetic.

Which of the statements Paul says makes an allusion to some thing that is hidden in Paul,s words

If nothing then they are plain words,,right???

August 27, 2013 at 10:56 am#356310

jammin

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)

Jammin…………..Was John so stupid , that if he wanted us to believe the WORD was JESUS , he couldn't just have written Jesus' name there? Why do you have to force the text to say what in fact it does not say, do you people know more then The Apostle John did, so you can freely just change the text to meet your dogmas. that is one of the reasons there is so much confusion in religion, people say all kind of things the scriptures are not saying. That is why we have so many different bible translations, Trinitarians and Preexistence preachers make their own translations of scripture to fit their false teachings. IMO

Peace and love…………………………gene

it is written in rev 19.13

Revelation 19:13

American Standard Version (ASV)

13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.

August 27, 2013 at 10:59 am#356311

jammin

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 24 2013,11:39)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 23 2013,14:18)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 16 2013,07:22)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2013,17:41)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2013,12:39)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2013,06:44)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 14 2013,04:57)

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 13 2013,18:00)

kerwin

not yet done?
cant you accept that the word in john 1.1 is the son>?

pls make your own bible. why are you making this hard for you>

Jammin,

Can't you believe the Word is the Logos of God?

i believe the Word is the logos of God and that logos is the Christ.
rev 19.13

you believe not the whole truth

Jammin,

So you believe “the word” in scripture should be translated the Christ.

Isaiah 1:10
Jammin's version?

10 Hear the Christ of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom;
give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah

Your version sounds strange to my ears.

we were talking about john 1.1

are you ok boy??

Jammin,

Why not any other passage that mentions “the word” as you have just as much evidence to support such a claim, which is to say none.

read the context

Jammin,

Here is context.

Genesis 1:1
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Hebrews 11:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

John 1:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

do you understand the meaning of context >
i think you dont understand that boy.

read john 1.1-14

and no version says that the HS is the Word in john 1.1

why cant you make this simple?
just give me a version that supports your imagination.
i always give you version to support what i said but you always give me illusion. do you think it is fair?

come on boy be true to yourself

August 28, 2013 at 12:58 am#356344

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2013,06:32)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2013,00:23)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,12:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,08:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Kerwin

this is Chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

kERWIN

is this poetic or plain words spoken by paul to the congregation of Colosse

Poetic.

Which of the statements Paul says makes an allusion to some thing that is hidden in Paul,s words

If nothing then they are plain words,,right???

God speaks in parables without telling his audience in order to test their heart. God used Jesus to speak to the woman at the well using a poetic form of speech and she did not understand him at first. He also spoke to the Jews and even his disciples in a like manner.

August 28, 2013 at 1:54 am#356352

Blocked

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,04:56)

john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.

Good point.

And the reason John knows this is because John wrote Revelation BEFORE he wrote his gospel!

So of course John calling Jesus “the Word” in Rev 19:13 supports the same exact writer calling the same exact person by the same exact title in his gospel a few years later.

August 28, 2013 at 3:27 am#356368

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 28 2013,06:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2013,06:32)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2013,00:23)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,12:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,08:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Kerwin

this is Chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

kERWIN

is this poetic or plain words spoken by paul to the congregation of Colosse

Poetic.

Which of the statements Paul says makes an allusion to some thing that is hidden in Paul,s words

If nothing then they are plain words,,right???

kERWIN

you avoiding to answer my question so here it is again ;

Which of the statements Paul says makes an allusion to some thing that is hidden in Paul,s words

If nothing then they are plain words,,right???[/quote]

please answer directly and honestly ;

August 28, 2013 at 2:45 pm#356415

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2013,21:56)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 24 2013,03:04)

Peace and love…………………………gene

it is written in rev 19.13

Revelation 19:13

American Standard Version (ASV)

13 And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

john knows that the Word in john 1.1 is Christ. rev 19.13 supports jn 1.1.

jammin …….. Again you avoid the question , here it is again for you , point one, was John so stupid that if he wanted us to believe he was referring to Jesus he would not have written Jesus' name there instead of the word, word? Point two, there is much debate concerning who wrote the Gospel of John, many scholars believe it was not John who even wrote the epistle of John, as I recall. Point three, why do you people have to change meanings of the written words used in the text to even meet your false dogmas anyway. Point four show us ONE SCRIPTURE ! where Jesus ever said He was a GOD of any kind . In fact Jesus said He had a GOD, Telling us he was going to his God and OUR GOD His FatherAnd OUR FATHER.

It's ONLY false teachers who twist the truth of GOD, and force texts to say what in fact they do not say, who TRY SO DESPERATELY to make, our BROTHER JESUS different then WE ARE. These false teacher deny the work of God “IN” Jesus Christ our LORD and MORE our BROTHER, in the house hold of GOD. Do you not think people who Even Preach Their Doctrines of SEPARATION of Jesus' identity with us, are not under a curse? , THEY ARE, IMO

Peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

August 29, 2013 at 12:05 am#356432

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 28 2013,09:27)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 28 2013,06:58)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2013,06:32)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2013,00:23)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,12:12)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 25 2013,08:10)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 25 2013,07:22)

Kerwin

this is Chinese to me ,so give me some examples please

poetic and regular

Poetically though written as a riddle.

kERWIN

is this poetic or plain words spoken by paul to the congregation of Colosse

Poetic.

Which of the statements Paul says makes an allusion to some thing that is hidden in Paul,s words

If nothing then they are plain words,,right???

kERWIN

you avoiding to answer my question so here it is again ;

Which of the statements Paul says makes an allusion to some thing that is hidden in Paul,s words

If nothing then they are plain words,,right???[/quote]

please answer directly and honestly ;

“first born of the dead” is a poetic form of speech.

“who hath delivered us from the power of darkness:,

“partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light”

You may have even have puzzled out the meaning of some of them.

August 29, 2013 at 12:17 am#356433