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kerwin,
do not put your own imagination to john's words.
can you read in john 1.14 that john said God was in christ?? do you have any version that says that?
yes or no?Quote
There is no messages from the Bible that the mediator between God and men should be a truly God, because the mediator or the redeemer of all sinners must be a holy man.Limjunus,
That’s according to your corrupted worldly wisdom, WITH EVERY RESPECT!!
Now let’s see:
Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Paul asserts, that a mediator is not of ONE, therefore of TWO OR MORE!!
BUT GOD IS ONE: HE is omnipotent, He is not to be compared with human decrees. He handles His things directly, and DOES NOT NEED A MEDIATOR, and in the same time He can be complex both the mediator and the parties and still remains ONE. His WORK is not of the nature of a contract between two parties. His ACTIONS depends on his own individual decree. HE IS ONE, and He deals directly single handed for all those involved and in the same time also for Himself, and for His own plan. He directly spoke to Abraham regarding the promise of the messiah, the genuine complex mediator for the entire human race, He directly spoke to Paul while on the road to Damascus.
From the other hand Moses was only a mediator for the Jews only, He only established temporary carnal useless LAW till Christ comes. But again there were three parties involved: the ANGEL, MOSES and the JEWS.
BUT GOD IS ONE!!
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by ANGELS in the hand of a MEDIATOR..
Now this is the complex part:
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the PROMISE by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
So the entire human race, are all under sin and death. But God is Spirit, and God loves MAN, and FLESH but hates SIN and DEATH.
SO We have MAN, FLESH, SIN, and DEATH, on one side and GOD, who is SPIRIT, SINLESS, and IMMORTAL on the other side.
Now as a mediator, signifies a middle person, there must necessarily be two parties AT LEAST, between whom HE stands, and acts in reference to BOTH, as he is supposed to have the interests of BOTH EQUALLY AT HEART.
PERFECTLY BALANCED, AND QUALIFIED IN BOTH RESPECTIVE FIELDS IN ORDER TO BE ACCEPTED AND BE SUCCESSFUL.
Now it is clear what PAUL MEANT WHEN HE SAID :
A MEDIATOR IS NOT OF ONE,BUT GOD IS ONE!
THE FATHER HAS NO SUCH CREDENTIALS. HE IS ONLY A SPIRIT.
THEREFORE THERE WAS ONLY ONE WHO QUALIFIED IN THAT SENSE :
JESUS CHRIST WAS A MEDIATOR NOT OF ONE ENTITY BUT OF :
BOTH GOD AND MAN, THE FATHER WASN'T
BOTH SPIRITUAL AND CARNAL, THE FATHER WASN'T
BOTH SINLESS AND SNFULL THE FATHER WASN'T
BOTH IMMORTAL AND MORTAL, THE FATHER WASN'TBUT GOD IS ONE BUT:
IN JESUS CHRIST SINCE HE IS ALSO:
ONE SPIRIT, ONE SOUL, ONE FLESH, ONE MAN, ONE MESSIAH, ONE BAPTISM ,ONE FAITH, ONE LOVE, ONE LIFE, ONE LIGHT, ONE TRUTH, ONE WAY, ONE GLORY. FOR ALL.
NO MATTER WHAT.
THE UNIQUE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL IN HIMSELF WHO IS PERFECTLY BALANCED AND EQUALLY QUALIFED IN BOTH FIELDS, AND HAD THE INTERESTS OF:
BOTH EQUALLY AT HEART.
SO JESUS CHRIST IS TRULY THE ONLY GOD IN FLESH SINCE HE ACHIEVED ALL BOTH FOR THE FATHER AND FOR THE MAN
REV:5:4 And I wept much, because NO MAN WAS FOUND WORTHY to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS
CHARLESQuote The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them. MIKE,
ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THAT IS HALF THE TRUTH.
UNLESS YOU RESPECT THE FACT THAT JESUS ALSO IS GOD!!KNOWN TO US AS SON OF GOD DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE BECAME MAN.
Jesus gave an IDENTY TO THE FATHER
AN INVISBLE GOD IS WITHOUT RECOGNITION.
AS SOON AS HE CREATED HIS CREATURES HE BECAME A CONTRADICTION DUE TO THE FACT THAT HE AS A JUST AND LOVING GOD CREATED HIS CREATURES WITH A FREE WILL LIKE HIM.
THE ONLY WAY OUT WAS THAT HE HIMSELF WOULD BECOME LIKE THEM IN JESUS CHRIST, IN ORDER TO TRANSFORM HIS CREATURES INTO BECOMING LIKE HIM IN THEIR FREE WILL, SO IT WAS THROUGH BECOMING THE MAN THAT HE GLORIFIED,NOT IF HE REMAINED A SPIRIT. JESUS GLORIFIED THE FATHER AND HIMSELF THROUGHOUT OUR CREATION.
ON THE LAST DAY GOD WOULD GLORIFY I REPEAT: WOULD GLORIFY IN ALL, IN THE BODY OF MAN. THE MYSTICAL BODY OF JESUS FOR ETERNITY.
ON THE LAST DAY THE FATHER WOULD BE GLORIFIED IN THE GLORY OF THE SON. IN HIS MYSTICAL BODY.
THERFORE JESUS IS GOD IN THE GLORY OF THE FATHER
John 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
ALL IN HIM, ALL BY HIM, AND ALL FOR HIM!!!
EXPLAIN THIS MIKE!!
Colossians 1:2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of
THE MYSTERY OF GOD,
AND OF THE FATHER,
AND OF CHRIST
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
WHY GOD , THE FATHER, AND CHRIST ARE SEPARATED???
WHY NOT GOD THE FATHER, AND CHRIST.???
LIKE THAT IT PROVES THAT ONLY THE FATHER IS GOD!!! NO???
WHAT IS THE REASON THEN, THAT THEY ARE EQUALLY AND INDIVIDUALLY MENTIONED???
IS GOD BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON THEN???
PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS
CHARLES
Quote (carmel @ Aug. 26 2012,15:16) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 27 2012,04:15) The Spirit Being who created the heavens, the earth, and everything in them MIKE,
ARE YOU CONFIRMING THAT GOD CANNOT BE VISIBLE??
Hi Charles,Spirit beings are USUALLY invisible to human beings. But spirit beings are able to see other spirit beings. And once in a rare while, God even “opens” the eyes of flesh beings and allows them to see spirit beings.
We know from scripture that no man has seen God at any time.
I John 5:7. The Old Testament prophets nowhere promulgated a doctrine about a “pre-existent savior” — and neither did the Messiah or the apostles in the New Testament. But the pagans, anxious to incorporate this doctrine (which was one of THEIR oldest and most honored) into their “Christian” religion, went so far as to ADD verses to the Bible to prove their doctrine of pre-existence and the Trinity. This is something the scriptures adamantly condemn.
Here is a verse that was ADDED for this very reason —
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (I John 5:7).
What is wrong with this scripture? Simply this: This entire verse is NOT even found in the Greek writings before the year 400 A.D.! The apostle John NEVER wrote this — nor would it have ever entered his mind!
The later translators knew this verse was ADDED and bogus, yet they failed to italicize it, which is a standard practice to show the reader that those particular words and phrases were added. This, in itself, proves that those in control of translating the scriptures were those who embraced the doctrines of paganism — and NOT the every word of YEHOVAH God!
The Emphatic Diaglott, page 803, shows this verse MISSING in their translation — and also explains WHY —
7. The received text reads, “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” This text concerning the heavenly witnesses is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the 15th century. It is not cited by any of the Greek ecclesiastical writers; nor by any of the early Latin fathers, even when the subject upon which they treat would naturally have led them to appeal to its authority. It is therefore evidently spurious; and was first cited (though not as it now reads) by Vigilius Tapsensis, a Latin writer of no credit, in the latter end of the fifth century; but by whom forged, is of no great moment, as its design must be obvious to all. — Improved Version.
Adam Clarke, in his Clarke's Commentary, goes on to tell us:
Verse 7. [There are three that bear record] The Father, who bears testimony to his Son; the Word or Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the Holy Ghost, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.
But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.
It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.
The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:-
“6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. 9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, &c.”
The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:– [In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one and there are three which bear witness in earth.]
However, we will allow the book Forgery in Christianity, by Joseph Wheless, to explain WHY this was not deleted by some of the later Bible versions —
Erasmus first detected the fraud and omitted the forged verse in his edition of the Greek Testament in 1516. (New Comm. Pt. III, p. 718-19.) This verse 7, bluntly speaking, is a forgery: “It had been willfully and wickedly interpolated, to sustain the Trinitarian doctrine; it has been entirely omitted by the Revisers of the New Testament.” (Roberts, Companion to the Revised Version, p. 72) “This memorable text,” says Gibbon, “is condemned by the silence of the Fathers, ancient versions, and authentic manuscripts, of all the manuscripts now extant, above four score in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old.” (Ch. xxvii, p. 598.) Speaking of this and another, Reinach says: “One of these forgeries (I John v, 7) was subjected to interpolation of a later date…If these two verses were authentic, they would be an affirmation of the doctrine of the Trinity, at a time when the gospels, and Acts and St. Paul ignore it. It was first pointed out in 1516 that these verses were an interpolation, for they do not appear in the best manuscripts down to the fifteenth century. The Roman Church refused to bow to the evidence…The Congregation of the Index, on January 13, 1897, with the approbation of Leo XIII, forbade any question of the authenticity of the text relating to the “Three Heavenly Witnesses.” It showed in this instance a willful ignorance to which St. Gregory's rebuke is specially applicable: 'God does not need our lies.'” (Orpheus, p. 239.) But His Church does; for without them it would not be; and with out the forged “Three Heavenly Witnesses,” there would be not a word in the entire New Testament hinting the existence of the Three-in-One God of Christianity. The Holy Trinity is an unholy Forgery!
The first perpetrator of this FRAUD added the pagan doctrine of the Trinity to the Bible — that there are three gods in one: the Father (one), the “Word” (Yeshua the Messiah; two) and the Holy Spirit, a personified third god (three). However, the other perpetrators of this false doctrine are just as guilty of deception since they DID NOT remove this verse from subsequent versions of the Bible when they uncovered the truth about it!
In naming the second person of this Trinity the “Word,” the perpetrators of I John 5:7 were also promulgating the FALSEHOOD of the pagan concept found in John 1:1 (KJV) — which says:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Take note that the word “Word” is CAPITALIZED in this verse — in order to make it appear as though this were speaking about a being or a person. And, in this particular case, the translators of the King James Version did want you to believe that the “Word” was God, and that “He” was “in the beginning WITH God” — that “He” was pre-existent and equal with YEHOVAH.
It is interesting to note that in the Chaldee Targums (paraphrases of parts of the Old Testament written in the Chaldee language) we find that YEHOVAH God is called “the Word of the Lord” and equated with the Shekinah Glory! It is, in fact, common practice in the Targums to find the word LORD (YEHOVAH) translated “the Word of the Lord” — notice:
KING JAMES VERSION. Numbers 10:35, 36: “And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, LORD [YEHOVAH], and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee. And when it rested, he said, Return, O LORD [YEHOVAH], unto the many thousands of Israel.”
This latter part becomes, in the Targums:
CHALDEE TARGUMS. Numbers 10:36: “Return now, O WORD OF THE LORD, to Thy people Israel, make the glory of Thy SHEKINAH to dwell among them, and have mercy on the thousands of Israel.”
Now look at Numbers 11:20:
KING JAMES VE
RSION. Numbers 11:20: “Because that ye have despised the LORD which is among you.”CHALDEE TARGUMS. Numbers 11:20: “Because ye have contemptuously rejected THE WORD OF THE LORD whose SHEKINAH dwelleth among you.”
The Greek word “Logos” was very dear to pagan minds; but, nevertheless, should properly have been translated “MANIFESTATION” or “SHEKINAH GLORY” in this case — and certainly not confused with Yeshua the Messiah!
The MANIFESTATION OF YEHOVAH God was with YEHOVAH “in the beginning,” and it was YEHOVAH's manifestation (Greek possessive form). YEHOVAH's manifestation (or Shekinah Glory) was with him in the beginning, and His manifestation was His very own, as we see in the first chapter of the Book of Genesis, where YEHOVAH said: “Let there be light; and there was light.”
SOURCEWHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 26 2012,14:38) The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice — …. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:
Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.”
The imperfect tense of “echo” in 17:5 means “the glory I WAS HAVING before the word began”.Most translations render it as a simple past tense (“the glory I HAD”) in English, but the meaning is the same.
The Greeks used the imperfect tense alot, as I recently noticed in the NASB I just finished reading. In that translation, they put an asterisk each time they translated a Greek imperfect tense as an English past tense.
It seems that almost every time you read, “He said………” in our English Bibles, the words were “He was saying……..” in the Greek text.
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) i have a pending question for you. why are you afraid to answer the question boy?? LOL ill repeat
are you in the form of MAN??
I've already answered this question many times, jammin. YES, I am in the form of MAN, because I am A man.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?
NO, it means I am A man if I'm in the form/nature of MAN.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) btw, Christ told that the we have ONE FATHER who is Truly God. let me post john 17.3
John 17:3New International Version (NIV)
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
i believe that there is ONE father who is Truly God.
Actually, Jesus didn't call his Father and God “truly God”. He called Him “the ONLY true God”.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) the bible also said that the son is Truly God!
ONE and ONLY SON who is Truly God.
The Greek text never said such a thing, jammin. There are more and more English Bibles, sponsored by Trinitarian Organizations, that twist the words of scripture and produce “translations” that say Jesus is “truly God” – but that claim was never in any Greek text written by the disciples.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12) these people are putting their own words in the bible.
there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14
You are right. That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.
(Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”. Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was. The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right? So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,18:41) kerwin, do not put your own imagination to john's words.
can you read in john 1.14 that john said God was in christ?? do you have any version that says that?
yes or no?
Jammin,I applied John's words to Jesus as he is the Child of God and John teaches how the life that is the Word fathers God's children. No imagining, just reasoning.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2012,22:22) Mike, The thing is that only created beings have bodies…………..
Where is the scripture that teaches us what you claimed? Matthew 18:10 (among many others) tells us that God DOES have a body.Btw, I'm still waiting for an answer:
Do you understand that Jesus, who is “the Word of God”, is not “the word of God” that will be written on the hearts of men? Do you understand that there are different meanings of the phrase “the word of God” in the scriptures, Kerwin? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:44) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 26 2012,14:38) The first word underlined and translated “I HAD” is the IMPERFECT FORM of the Greek word “echo” — word #2192 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This word means: to have to hold. However, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament shows this word to mean: TO HAVE IN STORE! Notice — …. to have a thing in readiness, have at hand, have in store:
Therefore, the word translated “I HAD” can — and should — have been translated “I AM TO HAVE.”
The imperfect tense of “echo” in 17:5 means “the glory I WAS HAVING before the word began”.Most translations render it as a simple past tense (“the glory I HAD”) in English, but the meaning is the same.
The Greeks used the imperfect tense alot, as I recently noticed in the NASB I just finished reading. In that translation, they put an asterisk each time they translated a Greek imperfect tense as an English past tense.
It seems that almost every time you read, “He said………” in our English Bibles, the words were “He was saying……..” in the Greek text.
Mike,The main point is that Yahshua was speaking of the esteem (“glory”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began and not that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being and that he was with Him in the beginning. Just as an earthly father looks forward to having a child and has esteem for that child that has not yet come into existence.
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14) MIKE, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THAT IS HALF THE TRUTH.
UNLESS YOU RESPECT THE FACT THAT JESUS ALSO IS GOD
No Charles,Jesus is the Son of God Almighty – not God Almighty Himself.
Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14) AS SOON AS HE CREATED HIS CREATURES……..
All things were created by God THROUGH Jesus. As Tertullian aptly pointed out, He who creates is one, and he through whom the thing is created is another.Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14) John 16:15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. EXPLAIN THIS MIKE!!
The God and Father of Jesus has given Jesus all He has – as many fathers did for their sons in the scriptures.Quote (carmel @ Aug. 27 2012,15:14) Colossians 1:2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of THE MYSTERY OF GOD,
AND OF THE FATHER,
AND OF CHRIST
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
WHY GOD , THE FATHER, AND CHRIST ARE SEPARATED???
WHY NOT GOD THE FATHER, AND CHRIST.???
Here is the NETBible translation:
Colossians 2
2 My goal is that their hearts, having been knit together in love, may be encouraged, and that they may have all the riches that assurance brings in their understanding of the knowledge of the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 63 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And here is NETNote #6:
6 tc
There are at least a dozen variants here, almost surely generated by the unusual wording τοῦ θεοῦ, Χριστοῦ (tou qeou, Cristou, “of God, Christ”; so Ì46 B Hil).Scribes would be prone to conform this to more common Pauline expressions such as:
“of God, who is in Christ” (33),
“of God, the Father of Christ” (א* A C 048vid 1175 bo), and
“of the God and Father of Christ” (א2 Ψ 075 0278 365 1505 pc).Even though the external support for the wording τοῦ θεοῦ, Χριστοῦ is hardly overwhelming, it clearly best explains the rise of the other readings and should thus be regarded as authentic.
Charles, the KJV translation of this verse is not a very solid foundation to build your doctrine on, since there are dozens of variants. Consider the way Paul USUALLY refered to God and His Christ in his letters. It is usually “We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Why do you ignore the MANY times Paul said those words, and focus instead on one odd translation from the KJV?
Also Charles, please make any responding posts short, with maybe one question per post. I don't enjoy responding to long, drawn out posts.
Here is your one question from me:
Luke 4:3
The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”Charles, why do you suppose that Satan and his demons didn't recognize Jesus as “God Himself, manifested in flesh”? Why were they confused, and thinking Jesus was the Son OF God?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,17:23) Mike, The main point is that Yahshua was speaking of the esteem (“glory”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began and not that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being and that he was with Him in the beginning. Just as an earthly father looks forward to having a child and has esteem for that child that has not yet come into existence.
Frank,Obviously, I completely disagree. I not only disagree with your interpretation, but also can't think of any scriptural or secular writing in the history of the world that would support such an interpretation of the words in John 17:5.
Also, your interpretation centers on a FATHER holding “in his presence” some future esteem for his unborn child. It does NOT center on that child someday saying, “Father, give me the esteem I WAS HAVING with you a long time ago.” How could the child say he was having that esteem if he wasn't even around yet to have it?
And finally Frank, my understanding is not based ONLY on 17:5. I take into consideration these other things Jesus said:
No one has seen God except for him who came from God.
I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before.
Before Abraham was born, I have existed.
You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
There are many more things Jesus said, not to mention the dozens of teachings from the writers of the NT that also support the pre-existence of Jesus.
And what do the non-preexisters combat all those scriptures with? Odd interpretations of scriptural words, that make no sense at all, and the ADDITION of words into scriptures so that the scripture teaches what they WANT it to teach.
Frank, take a look at this thread. There are about 50 scriptures listed in the first post that support the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 28 2012,09:59) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 27 2012,18:41) kerwin, do not put your own imagination to john's words.
can you read in john 1.14 that john said God was in christ?? do you have any version that says that?
yes or no?
Jammin,I applied John's words to Jesus as he is the Child of God and John teaches how the life that is the Word fathers God's children. No imagining, just reasoning.
can you read it in john 1.14 that john said God was in Christ?
yes or no?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:54) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) i have a pending question for you. why are you afraid to answer the question boy?? LOL ill repeat
are you in the form of MAN??
I've already answered this question many times, jammin. YES, I am in the form of MAN, because I am A man.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) does it mean that you are not MAN if you have the form/nature of MAN?
NO, it means I am A man if I'm in the form/nature of MAN.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) btw, Christ told that the we have ONE FATHER who is Truly God. let me post john 17.3
John 17:3New International Version (NIV)
3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
i believe that there is ONE father who is Truly God.
Actually, Jesus didn't call his Father and God “truly God”. He called Him “the ONLY true God”.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:37) the bible also said that the son is Truly God!
ONE and ONLY SON who is Truly God.
The Greek text never said such a thing, jammin. There are more and more English Bibles, sponsored by Trinitarian Organizations, that twist the words of scripture and produce “translations” that say Jesus is “truly God” – but that claim was never in any Greek text written by the disciples.
so you accept that you are a man and not man?? right??
LOLis your nature HUMAN? yes or no?
if yes, do you believe that you are HUMAN? yes or no?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,11:13) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 27 2012,17:23) Mike, The main point is that Yahshua was speaking of the esteem (“glory”) that he had with his and our Father Yahweh before the world began and not that he pre-existed his birth as an actual being and that he was with Him in the beginning. Just as an earthly father looks forward to having a child and has esteem for that child that has not yet come into existence.
Frank,Obviously, I completely disagree. I not only disagree with your interpretation, but also can't think of any scriptural or secular writing in the history of the world that would support such an interpretation of the words in John 17:5.
Also, your interpretation centers on a FATHER holding “in his presence” some future esteem for his unborn child. It does NOT center on that child someday saying, “Father, give me the esteem I WAS HAVING with you a long time ago.” How could the child say he was having that esteem if he wasn't even around yet to have it?
And finally Frank, my understanding is not based ONLY on 17:5. I take into consideration these other things Jesus said:
No one has seen God except for him who came from God.
I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before.
Before Abraham was born, I have existed.
You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
There are many more things Jesus said, not to mention the dozens of teachings from the writers of the NT that also support the pre-existence of Jesus.
And what do the non-preexisters combat all those scriptures with? Odd interpretations of scriptural words, that make no sense at all, and the ADDITION of words into scriptures so that the scripture teaches what they WANT it to teach.
Frank, take a look at this thread. There are about 50 scriptures listed in the first post that support the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
Mike,Well, I did not see that coming! Really! ? You completely disagree with me?
You must also believe that Father Yahweh does not know the future and did not plan for Yahshua being born, right? If so, then you also believe that Yahshua believed this same foolishness.
Your perverted translation:
Quote No one has seen God except for him who came from God. More accurate translations:
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known. – GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. – King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. – American King James Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – American Standard Version
No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – Douay-Rheims Bible
No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – Darby Bible Translation
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – English Revised Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. – Webster's Bible Translation
No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom–He has made Him known. – Weymouth New Testament
No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. – World English Bible
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father — he did declare. – Young's Literal Translation
Quote I came down from heaven, and will ascend to where I was before. You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Your perverted translation:
Quote Before Abraham was born, I have existed. I am quite aware of the Scripture verses and passages that those who promote the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine of the pre-existence of Yahshua.
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
mike said:NO, it means I am A man if I'm in the form/nature of MAN.
he is not accepting that he is man. he wants “a man”. LOL
there is nothing wrong with man and a man. this boy is making himself complicated LOL
we are talking about form/nature here boy. you are HUMAN/MAN by nature.God said he is a God.
Exodus 6:7 KJV
And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians1 Chronicles 17:24
Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God of Israel, even a God to Israel: and let the house of David thy servant be established before thee.study hard boy LOL
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12) these people are putting their own words in the bible.
there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14
You are right. That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.
(Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”. Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was. The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right? So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)
Hi Mike,“the Word was God” (John 1:1)
“God was in Christ” (2 Cor 5:19)Big stretch huh?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12) these people are putting their own words in the bible.
there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14
You are right. That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.
(Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”. Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was. The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right? So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)
It is not hard to believe that Mike is actually agreeing with jammin on this point! They are like two peas in a pod!
Mike,
It is called harmonizing the context of Scripture as a whole. The fact is, you are not allowed to take a single verse out of an erroneous translation of Scripture as a whole and build your own personal belief from that one erroneously translated verse. Scripturally speaking, those who do this are referred to as “they that are unlearned ['ignorant, ill-taught, untaught'] and unstable ['people who aren't sure of what they believe, unstedfast, unsettled'] wrest ['twist, distort, pervert, mean something quite different'], AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION (2 Kepha [Peter] 3:16).
The Prophet Yeremyah speaks righteously of people such as yourself in Scripture Yeremyah Chapter 23.
Again, you have been owned in the forum that you moderate!
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 29 2012,05:14) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,09:56) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 26 2012,21:12) these people are putting their own words in the bible.
there is no “IN” in john 1.1 and 1.14
You are right. That's why Ed has to bring the word “IN” from a completely different scripture in 2 Cor to help him “twist” John 1:14.Ed, you're not allowed to borrow the word “IN” from 2 Cor 5:19 and place it into John 1:14.
(Btw, “NO”, it is not “an alternate account of John 1:14”. Nor would it teach what you want it to teach if it was. The Word became flesh and had the glory of the Son of God, right? So if you are saying the Word WAS God, then you are also saying that God became flesh and had the glory of His own Son.)
Hi Mike,“the Word was God” (John 1:1)
“God was in Christ” (2 Cor 5:19)Big stretch huh?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J,TWO THUMBS WAY UP!
Mike,
So it is now known that you have been owned!
Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work: If one falls down, his friend can help him up. But pity the man who falls and has no one to help him up! Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not easily broken (Ecclesiastes 4:9-12).
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
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