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Did Jesus Preexist as “the Angel of the LORD”?
by Servetus the EvangelicalThe most mysterious and enigmatic figure in the Old Testament (OT) is “the angel of
the LORD.” It occurs 56 times, and “the angel of God” occurs 10 times. He appeared to
Abraham, Hagar, Isaac, Jacob, Manoah and his wife, Moses, Joshua, and many others.
There has never been any consensus in Judaism about the identity of this figure. The
three eminent rabbinic Bible commentators in medieval times interpreted it as the “angel”
of Exodus 23 and 33, whom God said he would send to guard Israel on its way to the
promised land and taking possession of it. Many Jewish scholars have identified this
angel as the captain of God’s angelic armies, and some claim he is Michael the archangel.
Church fathers generally interpreted “the angel of the LORD” in the OT as the Logos-
Son. Since they also identified this Logos-Son as the preexistent Jesus Christ, they
deemed “the angel of the LORD” as substantial OT evidence that Jesus Christ was God.
Justin Martyr, a 2nd century church father, trumpeted this interpretation more than
anyone. In his Dialogue with Trypho, a seemingly fictitious Jew, he frequently calls Jesus
“the Angel.” The church later condemned such an identification. In fact, the author of the
New Testament (NT) book of Hebrews tries strenuously to prove that Jesus is superior to
angels, describing him as “having become as much better than the angels” (Hebrews 1.4).
Regardless, the majority of Christians have believed that “the angel of the LORD” in
the OT was the preexistent Christ. For instance, preeminent Protestant Bible teacher John
Calvin led the pastors of Geneva in condemning Michael Servetus as a heretic and getting
him executed for a laundry list of allegations that included his denial of this belief.
Those who believe that Jesus is God are called “traditionalists.” Most contemporary,
traditionalist Bible scholars do not believe that “the angel of the LORD” in the OT was the
preexistent Jesus, although many Evangelicals still do. Most agree with historical critics
that this figure was Yahweh himself. The two main reasons are that some OT narratives
interchange “the angel of the LORD” with “the LORD” and present “the angel of the LORD”
speaking in the first person on behalf of Yahweh. Therefore, James Dunn explains that
“the angel of Yahweh is simply a way of speaking about Yahweh himself.” Yet these
texts can be understood as an actual angel serving as Yahweh’s agent and therefore
sometimes being depicted as Yahweh himself when in fact he is only Yahweh’s agent.
So, the three primary interpretations of “the angel of the LORD” in the OT are that this
figure depicts Yahweh himself, the preexistent Jesus Christ, or an actual angel.
Some OT narratives relate that Israelites literally saw “the angel of the LORD.” Even
Balaam’s donkey did (Numbers 22.25, 27). These texts include conversations between
the angel and people. Some texts identify the figure as “a man” who is at first mistaken as
a man. (The Bible records many other events when humans literally saw and conversed
with an “angel(s),” and some of these narratives describe the angel(s) as a “man/men.”)
Other narratives tell merely that “the LORD appeared,” without mentioning an angel. In
such instances, “the angel of the LORD” probably should be presumed.
For example, Jacob wrestled all night with “a man” (Genesis 32.24). Jacob sensed
his supernatural status and asked him for a blessing. When he gave it and departed, Jacob
exclaimed, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved” (v. 30).
The first biblical clue that “the angel of the LORD” in the OT is not Yahweh himself is
that some of these narratives present people literally seeing him and thereafter worrying
that they would die because they believed that no human being could literally see God
and live. Indeed, the Bible well attests to this truth. It is because God is unapproachable
by mortal humans, dwelling in a glorious light, and thus is “invisible” to them. Similarly,
theologians describe God as “transcendent”—existing beyond the material universe.
The best evidence that the angel of the LORD in the OT is to be distinguished from
Yahweh is those narratives in which these two communicate with each other. It occurred
when King David sinned by numbering Israel, and the angel appeared to him with raised
sword for judgment (1 Chronicles 21.15-16; 2 Samuel 24.15-16). When David offered a
sacrifice, “the LORD commanded the angel, and he put his sword back in its sheath” (1
Chronicles 21.27). Another time was when Yahweh and his angel spoke to each other in
Zechariah’s vision of four angels riding horses to patrol the earth (Zechariah 1.12-13).
The most important OT texts about the angel of the LORD, without being mentioned,
are those that tell about God informing Moses that he was going to “send an angel before
you to guard” Israel, making him Israel’s guardian angel (Exodus 23.21-23; 32.34; 33.2).
There is a progressive revelation in narratives containing the expression “the angel of
the LORD/God” and some other texts in the OT which lead to the identity of this figure.
Therefore, Gerhard von Rad rightly concludes, agreeing with some rabbis, “Michael [the
archangel] is the guardian angel of Israel.” The evidence can be summed up as follows:
o The angel of the LORD in the OT was associated exclusively with Israel.
o The angel of the LORD in the OT was not God himself but his personal representative.
o God appeared to certain Israelites by means of the angel of the LORD as his agent.
o God did not appear literally to these Israelites or they would have instantly died.
o God sent an angel as his intermediary to guard Israel (Exodus 23, 33).
o The OT angel of the LORD is the guardian angel of Israel (Exodus 3; Acts 7.30-35).
o The guardian angel of Israel is chief of the angelic armies of heaven (Joshua 5.13-15).
o The chief of heaven’s angelic armies is Michael the archangel (Revelation 12.7-9).
o Therefore, the guardian angel of Israel is Michael the archangel (Daniel 10.21; 12.1).
o Michael is the OT angel of the LORD, and God’s name is in his name (Exodus 23.21).
In my book, The Restitution of Jesus Christ, I devote 17 pages to an examination of
“the angel of the LORD” in the OT.
[PDF] SOURCEThe Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 15 2012,17:50) Mike, So, is it not clear to you by now that the author of these articles and I both do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as “a god”?
Is it not clear to you that I have asked a few questions in my post that I would like you to address?Or are you too busy “owning me” to answer my questions?
(Btw, I have quickly skimmed over about 20% of your cut and paste jobs. I have actually read the entire thing once or twice now. 80% of the time, I just scroll right past them without reading a word, because I already know they don't say anything that would prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus, and I further know that any points I bring up to you about them will not be addressed by you. So what's the point in reading them?)
Okay Frank,
Make that THREE that I've read completely now, for I just read the “Angel of the LORD” post.
Most of it was good stuff, but I have one question:
Why do you suppose the author assumes that there is only ONE angel in question? Is there any reason to think that it couldn't have been different angels at different times?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,11:57) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 15 2012,17:50) Mike, So, is it not clear to you by now that the author of these articles and I both do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as “a god”?
Is it not clear to you that I have asked a few questions in my post that I would like you to address?Or are you too busy “owning me” to answer my questions?
(Btw, I have quickly skimmed over about 20% of your cut and paste jobs. I have actually read the entire thing once or twice now. 80% of the time, I just scroll right past them without reading a word, because I already know they don't say anything that would prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus, and I further know that any points I bring up to you about them will not be addressed by you. So what's the point in reading them?)
Mike,I believe that you have heard it all before is why I do not address your questions. You don't fool me! This debate is nothing new and I am sure that you are aware that this debate has been going on long before it has ever been addressed on this silly forum. As I had made known to you from Jump Street, I do not wish to enter into any long and unending debate with you on this subject. I have much better things to do with my time! I am simply playing along in like manner with the rest of the people who participate this silly forum.
The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,12:05) Okay Frank, Make that THREE that I've read completely now, for I just read the “Angel of the LORD” post.
Most of it was good stuff, but I have one question:
Why do you suppose the author assumes that there is only ONE angel in question? Is there any reason to think that it couldn't have been different angels at different times?
Mike,His e-mail address is on his web site! Why don't you personally ask him yourself?
The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,11:57) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 15 2012,17:50) Mike, So, is it not clear to you by now that the author of these articles and I both do not believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as “a god”?
Is it not clear to you that I have asked a few questions in my post that I would like you to address?Or are you too busy “owning me” to answer my questions?
(Btw, I have quickly skimmed over about 20% of your cut and paste jobs. I have actually read the entire thing once or twice now. 80% of the time, I just scroll right past them without reading a word, because I already know they don't say anything that would prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus, and I further know that any points I bring up to you about them will not be addressed by you. So what's the point in reading them?)
Mike,I often wonder what is the point in your even participating in this silly forum?
The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,09:34) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2012,03:41) edj, i answered already mike and im giving him chance to give a translation that says individual being in phil 2.6
jammin,I already addressed this point a couple of days ago. This is what I wrote to you:
And btw, you're asking the wrong question about “individual being”. You shouldn't ask if I can “find a translation” that says what I want it to say, because then I'd just be like you. You should instead ask if the GREEK TEXT says anything about “individual being”. And the answer is “NO”.
But I've got some new questions for you to ponder:
jammin, is God ever said to be “in the form of God”?
Is God ever said to be “the exact representation of God”?
Is God ever said to “have the same nature as God”?
Of course not, because people are not compared to THEMSELVES. So any scripture that says Jesus is LIKE God is simultaneously saying Jesus is NOT God, because no one is ever said to be “like” themselves.
This is just common sense, jammin. So unless you can say, “God has the same nature as God”, it should be clear to you that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN God, who shares many of God's qualities, and is LIKE Him in many ways.
mikeyou agree that your form is MAN
why cant you accept that the form of Christ is God.
paul said that.
you are a hard headed mike
ed, limjunus, mike
i believe what is written. i dnt accept illusion.
so pls, if you want your doctrine to be accepted then you must give verses not opinionQuote What were we before that – an idea in God's head (perhaps)
Perhaps you missed it.Edj,
Yes I did, sorry.
Now God has no ideas, God doesn't plan,
GOD JUST ACT PERFECT IN AN INSTANAT. HE KNOWS ALL THROUGHOUT. THERE'S NO BEGINNING OR AN END TO ANY THING HE DOES. IT SIMPLY KEEP ON GROWING, EXPANDING IN HIS RICHES.
SO, SINCE CREATION WAS ENIRELY IN JESUS'S SPIRIT,BY JESUS' SPIRIT, AND FOR JESUS' SPIRIT, AND JESUS' SPIRIT WAS ETERNALLY ONE IN THE FATHER, WE WERE IN THE LOINS OF JESUS SPIRIT, IN A MODE TO SAY IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND.
SO WE WERE FAR BETTER THEN WE ARE NOW NO???
WE WERE GODS NO!!!
SO IF WE WERE IN THAT HIGH STATE, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE OMNIPOTENCE OF GOD WOULD CREATE THE ENTIRE CREATION AND IT WOULD END IN A STATE INFERIOR TO WHAT IT ORIGINALLY WAS???
OR SUPERIOR TO WHAT ORIGINALLY WAS???
I BELIEVE THAT IT WOULD BE SUPERIOR, OTHERWISE GOD WOULD NOT HAVE SUCCEEDED IN HIS OMNOPOTENCE AND ADDED HIS RICHES.NO???
SO IN YOUR OPINION WHAT SHOULD BE OUR STATE ON THE LAST DAY, CONSIDERRING THE FACT THAT WE WERE HIDDEN SUBSTANCE OF GOD, WHICH MYSELF I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED THAT I HAD REMAINED IN THAT STATE RATHER THEN RISK TO END UP IN HELLFIRE
PEACE AND LOVE IN JESUS WHO MADE US GODS LIKE HIM ON EARTH,AND EVENTUALLY LIKE HIM ON THE LAST DAY IN HEAVEN
CHARLES
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2012,15:52) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2012,13:56) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 14 2012,06:12) really??? you just cant accept the truth mike.
i told you to make your own bible LOLcommentaries also say that it refers to his (christ) nature as God (phil 2.6)
how about you boy? ill wait for your translation that says individual being or species in phil 2.6you may ask for help boy LOL
Jammin,You do make your own bibles and advise others to do the same no matter their teaching.
u just cant accpt the truth.yiou know, if you preach, you must read it. illusion is not allowed here.
Jammin,Jesus exists in the form of Jehovah, not as Jehovah. There is a difference unless you teach polytheism and Jehovah as a kind.
kerwin,
do you exist in the form of MAN?
phil 2.6 talks about nature or form.
that is Christ form, God.Quote (jammin @ Aug. 16 2012,20:24) kerwin, do you exist in the form of MAN?
phil 2.6 talks about nature or form.
that is Christ form, God.
Jammin,Both Jesus and I are in the form of humanity, as to the flesh. This is because there are many humans. There is but one true God and he is Jehovah.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 16 2012,19:18) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2012,15:52) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 15 2012,13:56) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 14 2012,06:12) really??? you just cant accept the truth mike.
i told you to make your own bible LOLcommentaries also say that it refers to his (christ) nature as God (phil 2.6)
how about you boy? ill wait for your translation that says individual being or species in phil 2.6you may ask for help boy LOL
Jammin,You do make your own bibles and advise others to do the same no matter their teaching.
u just cant accpt the truth.yiou know, if you preach, you must read it. illusion is not allowed here.
Jammin,Jesus exists in the form of Jehovah, not as Jehovah. There is a difference unless you teach polytheism and Jehovah as a kind.
Yes Kerwin, he is the IMAGE OF GOD.
Not his facial looks or body shape,but his conduct,his ways and his wisdom.And we must try to be like him.wakeup.
Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2012,23:47) mike you agree that your form is MAN
why cant you accept that the form of Christ is God.
Because “man” is a SPECIES, jammin. Is “God” a SPECIES or an individual BEING?Besides, the scripture doesn't say, “the form of Christ is God”. Instead, it says that Christ was existing IN the form of God.
Why didn't you answer my new questions? Here's the first one again:
jammin, would it make sense to say that God was existing in the form of God? YES or NO?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 15 2012,19:31) Mike, I often wonder what is the point in your even participating in this silly forum?
I enjoy discussing scriptures and doctrines with other people, Frank. Since you don't do either, and you think this forum is “silly”, the real question is: Why are YOU here?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2012,09:34) Quote (jammin @ Aug. 15 2012,23:47) mike you agree that your form is MAN
why cant you accept that the form of Christ is God.
Because “man” is a SPECIES, jammin. Is “God” a SPECIES or an individual BEING?Besides, the scripture doesn't say, “the form of Christ is God”. Instead, it says that Christ was existing IN the form of God.
Why didn't you answer my new questions? Here's the first one again:
jammin, would it make sense to say that God was existing in the form of God? YES or NO?
let me post the dictionary
human (ˈhjuːmən)– of, characterizing, or relating to man and mankind: human nature
that is what the dictionary says
Christ's nature is God.
God??? who is that God? the father or son?
both have the same nature and that is their nature GodQuote (jammin @ Aug. 16 2012,17:43) God??? who is that God? the father or son?
Hmmm……………How many Almighty Gods do you think there are, jammin? Scripture says ONE. What do YOU say?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2012,09:38) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Aug. 15 2012,19:31) Mike, I often wonder what is the point in your even participating in this silly forum?
I enjoy discussing scriptures and doctrines with other people, Frank. Since you don't do either, and you think this forum is “silly”, the real question is: Why are YOU here?
Mike,It seems to me that you rather enjoy trampling Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word under foot and tearing those who teach His inspired prophetic word to pieces.
The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneDid Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
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